Is the church on earth during the tribulation

DaveM said:

Please provide scripture to support your view.

thanks

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The church has been on the earth for the last 1991 years of great tribulation.

The church will not be on the earth for the final harvest called the great tribulation.

Jesus Christ the Prince will be on earth with all the angels during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Only the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11, will be on earth during the 42 months of desolation found in Daniel 9:27, and Revelation 13-19.

Paul and Jesus taught the church leaves at the Second Coming, not years after the Second Coming. The 5th and 6th Seal is the Second Coming. This happens chronologically before the 7th Seal, and the events of the rest of the book.

DaveM said:

Please provide scripture to support your view.

thanks

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In the NT era what would saints be classified as? The church or something else? If the latter, what then if not the church?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Is this meaning in the NT era and is this meaning during the tribulation? Assuming one agrees that saints mean the church in the NT era, and that one agrees that Revelation 13:7 involves the NT era and involves the tribulation, what does all of that add up to? That the church is here during the tribulation? Or that the church is absent during the tribulation?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


This verse says the dragon went to make war with those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Who would have the testimony of Jesus Christ? The church or someone else instead? If the latter, who then if not the church?

These that the dragon makes war with, do they already have the testimony of Jesus Christ before He makes war with them? Obviously, yes. Who would already have the testimony of Jesus Christ? The church or someone else? If the latter, who then if not the church? Are any of these the dragon makes war with in Revelation 12:17 meaning anyone in Revelation 13:7? If no, who is it meaning then?

DaveM said:

Please provide scripture to support your view.

thanks

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Can you clarify what you mean by "church"? Some will say it's been around forever in the sense of "ecclesia" - a body of believers - which could even include Old Testament believers. But if by "church" you mean the bride of Christ, then there is a clear distinction. Even John the Baptist didn't consider himself a part of that, but said, instead, he was a friend of the groom.

If you mean the bride of Christ, then I believe those will not be here during the GT. I believe they are the vessel by which the Holy Spirit is restraining in 2 Thess 2 and that they will be "taken out of the way" by means of a rapture, after which the 70th week of Daniel will commence. Those saved after the rapture will be the tribulation saints, not part of the bride, but friends of the groom much like John the Baptist.

Some get confused because of the letters to the churches, etc. But "saints" are the body of Christ and they are in the book of Revelation.

Of course all of Matthew 24 is relevant but I'll just post a few verses,

Some will be delivered up for a testimony during that time.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is the very same testimony talked about in Revelation 12

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Which of courses goes with Paul's teaching in Ephesians 6 and the armour we need, included the Word to over come Satan.

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Paul is definitely teaching to Christians, therefore the body of Christ. And of course that "evil day" is when Satan is here disguised as an angel of light..

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Christ is saying don't believe this entity "disguised" as an angel of light - warning that if someone says here is Christ or there is Christ believe it not. He's telling you that Antichrist/Satan will be here first playing fake savior.

Which of course Paul is a second witness,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Paul is telling us as well that our gathering back to Christ will not happen until after these events.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."


Christ then describes his coming, later saying, "immediately after the tribulation,

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The body of Christ are saints period. We will be there and we need that full armour of God to be able to overcome Satan. Christ says that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And he says "in your patience, possess ye your souls"

We are given all of these warnings. No one ever says, don't worry, you won't be here.

As I've said in many other threads, I was raised to believe the church won't be here but that's not biblical.

DaveM said:

Please provide scripture to support your view.

thanks

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Too many times in our Christian discussions we make statements and ask questions - presuming that everyone else has the same meaning to the terms we use.

What do you mean by "the tribulation" ? Do you mean the full 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 ?

Or do you man the great tribulation, that begins when the abomination of desolation is setup in the holy place?

The answer is the church may or may not be here during the false messianic age period on my chart below. But the church will not be here when the Day of the Lord begins and the abomination of desolation is setup in the holy place, i.e. on the temple mount.

I am praying we know about 1st, 2nd Thess. We know OT NT righteous will not see Gods wrath. We might not know some believe the great tribulation already happened. So.. no one will give a verse proving showing the Church is or is not here. Well there is no verse for it. We can talk about after Rev4 I think the Church is no longer talked about. Oh then OT 70week..Things like this don't just get left there. We get into speculation which is ok and can be fun yet that is not Gods word.

So for me and thanks for this thread its more like just asking what do you personally believe.

DaveM said:

Please provide scripture to support your view.

thanks

Click to expand...

Yes

Daniel 7

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

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Many pretribulationists want to see themselves as being the saints that are given the Kingdom here, but want to dismiss themselves as being the saints that are given over to the little horn to wage war on and prevail against. That is not biblical. It is the same saints that go through the tribulation, that the kingdom is given to.

This is called back on and supported in Revelation.

Revelation 12

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Revelation 13

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

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Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

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Again, pretribulationists want to associate themselves as being given the Kingdom, but separated from those saints that go through the Great Tribulation.
But as we see here, unless you are unified with those who go through the Great Tribulation... you won't be resurrected until after the Millennium.
So.. if the Church is resurrected before the end of the Millennium, then the Church goes through the Great Tribulation.

Furthermore
2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

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This is key, Paul is referring to the rapture, and note he links the coming of Jesus Christ with it. He does not separate it like a pretribulationist.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

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Also key, Paul outright dismantles the doctrine of imminence with this

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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Paul gives prophetic markers that Jesus cannot return and rapture us until these markers have been observed.
Don't even bother me with that false interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 using cherrypicked translations in order to back up pretrib doctrine. Pastors who teach it are going to stand in judgement for teaching that, and lose rewards for it, because they has taught that the bible has been translated with errors for ulterior motives. It's heresy.
You may argue 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, and I can at least see where that comes from and it's not cherrypicking translations. Okay that's at least a valid point. However. 2020 has shown me that the church can be "taken out of the way" while still being on Earth. So I don't see conflict.

Finally Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21, the Olivet Discourse. Note the audience was NOT unbelieving Jews as pretribulationists will teach. But disciples of Jesus. the audience is us, not "the Jews"

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

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There weren't Pharisees present here, that's not who He is addressing, but His disciples. These are Church Fathers.

Further on

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

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Note the inclusiveness, this is not a 'when they shall see', but when Disciples of Jesus shall see.

Now of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.. and this is directed at BOTH pretribulationists AND post tribulationists...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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When does that happen?
Here
Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

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Note what happens nest in Matthew 24 after this? Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven, and angels gather up the elect.

What happens after the 6th seal.. in Revelation 7?
An uncountable number of saints are singing and praising God in heaven.

These details to NOT align up with Revelation 19 at all.

So. what is the church here for? The Great Tribulation, when does that end? The 6th seal, BEFORE the trumpets and bowls.
That means the church is NOT here during the trumpets and bowls because they were gathered at the sixth seal which immediately preceded them. So they are not appointed to God's wrath which is the trumpets and bowls, keeping consistent with 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Jamdoc said:

Again, pretribulationists want to associate themselves as being given the Kingdom, but separated from those saints that go through the Great Tribulation.
But as we see here, unless you are unified with those who go through the Great Tribulation... you won't be resurrected until after the Millennium.
So.. if the Church is resurrected before the end of the Millennium, then the Church goes through the Great Tribulation.

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Revelation 7 tells us who are on earth. The 144k. Those who are in heaven entered heaven at the 6th Seal.

When do, or better yet, why would those in heaven return to earth before the 7th Seal is opened? You are dismissing the troubles of countless martyrs over the last 1991 years of tribulation. Martyrs started with Stephen post the Cross, not in Revelation 13 after the Trumpets and Thunders. More than that, the tribulation, for those in heaven in Revelation 7, all the redeemed, has been the last 5991 years including Abel who was martyred out of jealousy. Why do people forget the whole time on earth, and only think about a future event that has not even happened yet, a few chapters later? Abel is just as redeemed and in a white robe as any other soul in heaven.

The Millennium has nothing to do with pre Second Coming events. Those who die before the Second Coming are in Revelation 7. Those in Christ, redeemed after the Second Coming (during the Trumpets, sheep; during the Thunders, wheat) are resurrected/changed in Revelation 20:4. They do not go back in time to the 6th Seal. Those who die in the Millennium will end up in the Lake of Fire. No sin is tolerated in the Millennium.

There is no resurrection at the 6th Seal. Those currently in Paradise are gathered from the 4 corners of Paradise to meet those on the earth in mid-air. Those in Paradise do not need this corruptible body. They already have a permanent incorruptible physical body. What happens at the 5th and 6th Seal is the glorification of the church in mid-air. The church is complete and presented to the Lord God, and forever with the Lord God. That is why they are seen in Revelation 7 in the temple of God. No time travel necessary. The 144k are part of the earthly Millennium.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 7 tells us who are on earth. The 144k. Those who are in heaven entered heaven at the 6th Seal.

When do, or better yet, why would those in heaven return to earth before the 7th Seal is opened? You are dismissing the troubles of countless martyrs over the last 1991 years of tribulation. Martyrs started with Stephen post the Cross, not in Revelation 13 after the Trumpets and Thunders. More than that, the tribulation, for those in heaven in Revelation 7, all the redeemed, has been the last 5991 years including Abel who was martyred out of jealousy. Why do people forget the whole time on earth, and only think about a future event that has not even happened yet, a few chapters later? Abel is just as redeemed and in a white robe as any other soul in heaven.

The Millennium has nothing to do with pre Second Coming events. Those who die before the Second Coming are in Revelation 7. Those in Christ, redeemed after the Second Coming (during the Trumpets, sheep; during the Thunders, wheat) are resurrected/changed in Revelation 20:4. They do not go back in time to the 6th Seal. Those who die in the Millennium will end up in the Lake of Fire. No sin is tolerated in the Millennium.

There is no resurrection at the 6th Seal. Those currently in Paradise are gathered from the 4 corners of Paradise to meet those on the earth in mid-air. Those in Paradise do not need this corruptible body. They already have a permanent incorruptible physical body. What happens at the 5th and 6th Seal is the glorification of the church in mid-air. The church is complete and presented to the Lord God, and forever with the Lord God. That is why they are seen in Revelation 7 in the temple of God. No time travel necessary. The 144k are part of the earthly Millennium.

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The Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation,
it is not 1991 years long.
The abomination of Desolation was not in AD70.
and the Antichrist, who assumes rulership at that time of his empire, only has the empire for 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days, time, times and half a time.
Not 1991 years.

Jamdoc said:

The Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation,
it is not 1991 years long.
The abomination of Desolation was not in AD70.
and the Antichrist, who assumes rulership at that time of his empire, only has the empire for 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days, time, times and half a time.
Not 1991 years.

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Do you distinguish between those who come out of great tribulation, and the tribulation of those days?

Where is the phrase "The GT" even found?

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the power."

Does it say immediately after The GT?

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Does it say they came out of The GT?

This earth with sin has been groaning under the tribulation of sin for 5991 years. There was tribulation before the Cross. The church has suffered great tribulation for 1991 years.

Yet none of past history can be said to be The GT. Were the first 4 Seals tribulation or great tribulation or even The GT? Has there been times of greater and less tribulation over the years? If the Lamb and the angels are coming to earth for the final harvest, Matthew 13, Matthew 24, Matthew 25, and the Trumpets and Thunders happen after the 7th Seal, why would the Second Coming not be prior to this time of GT? 8 billion people are about to die one way or the other, in a matter of years, not even a decade.

Did 8 billion people die in the first century? Has there even been 8 billion people to die over the last 1991 years? I mean any who really are going to take Jesus seriously, and all the parables, should probably realize the scope of what many think is about to happen. That sermon over 100 years ago, "sinners in the hands of an angry God", is about to get really real. 8 billion souls about to get harvested by the Lamb and the angels; this should be The GT.

I know you claim the Seals are not really real, just foreshadows of the Trumpets. That does not explain the Thunders, that we literally know nothing about. It cannot cover the vials that come after the 7th Trumpet. I am not sure how one can just rush through the book without thinking about these 14 judgments not even including the opening of the Seals to even get to them. Then we have 42 months given to Satan and his two side kicks, before we can get to the vials. We do not know the number at Armageddon, but we should understand it is all who are left alive on earth.

"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Is there really a remnant after the remnant?

Timtofly said:

Do you distinguish between those who come out of great tribulation, and the tribulation of those days?

Where is the phrase "The GT" even found?

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the power."

Does it say immediately after The GT?

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Does it say they came out of The GT?

This earth with sin has been groaning under the tribulation of sin for 5991 years. There was tribulation before the Cross. The church has suffered great tribulation for 1991 years.

Yet none of past history can be said to be The GT. Were the first 4 Seals tribulation or great tribulation or even The GT? Has there been times of greater and less tribulation over the years? If the Lamb and the angels are coming to earth for the final harvest, Matthew 13, Matthew 24, Matthew 25, and the Trumpets and Thunders happen after the 7th Seal, why would the Second Coming not be prior to this time of GT? 8 billion people are about to die one way or the other, in a matter of years, not even a decade.

Did 8 billion people die in the first century? Has there even been 8 billion people to die over the last 1991 years? I mean any who really are going to take Jesus seriously, and all the parables, should probably realize the scope of what many think is about to happen. That sermon over 100 years ago, "sinners in the hands of an angry God", is about to get really real. 8 billion souls about to get harvested by the Lamb and the angels; this should be The GT.

I know you claim the Seals are not really real, just foreshadows of the Trumpets. That does not explain the Thunders, that we literally know nothing about. It cannot cover the vials that come after the 7th Trumpet. I am not sure how one can just rush through the book without thinking about these 14 judgments not even including the opening of the Seals to even get to them. Then we have 42 months given to Satan and his two side kicks, before we can get to the vials. We do not know the number at Armageddon, but we should understand it is all who are left alive on earth.

"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Is there really a remnant after the remnant?

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Both Daniel and Revelation both teach a period of 3.5 years.
No longer.

Jamdoc said:

Both Daniel and Revelation both teach a period of 3.5 years.
No longer.

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Do the Trumpets and Thunders happen during those 42 months? Do those 42 months start at the 7th Seal?

Seems to me, John claims the 42 months start at the 7th Trumpet, the same time the 2 witnesses start their 42 months.

You still need to fit in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

DaveM said:

I know some would call these saints you refer to "tribulation saints", but I see no wear in the bible that talks about or makes any reference at all too "tribulation saints"

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Yes, but you can't dismiss it entirely on those grounds. The Bible also makes no reference to "Great Tribulation", "Trinity", etc... These are just phrases and terms we use to describe concepts inferred from scripture.

If the church goes through the GT and are prevailed against by antichrist, then we have a contradiction in scripture, since Jesus said the church would not be prevailed against:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" Daniel 7:21

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Rachel20 said:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" Daniel 7:21

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We know some will fall away in "apostasy" for whatever reason, not knowing the end times plan, blinded for their own protection, etc.

There's a difference between "the gates of Hell" and people falling away in apostasy to Satan/Antichrist.

We definitely know some saints will be delivered up and it will be "their" testimony that will go out over the entire world and that's what will overcome Satan. Revelation specifically says the devil will throw some into prison. Christ says do not even meditate, he will give them a mouth and wisdom. I imagine it could be that cloven tongue where it goes out in all languages. Truly a testimony for all times. And then Christ says the end will come. We know Christ has the final victory in the end, the gates of Hell do not prevail.

Daniel 7:21 "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Daniel 7:22 "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 8:27 "And He That searcheth the hearts because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

ETA, Saints are the body of Christ.

Timtofly said:

Do the Trumpets and Thunders happen during those 42 months? Do those 42 months start at the 7th Seal?

Seems to me, John claims the 42 months start at the 7th Trumpet, the same time the 2 witnesses start their 42 months.

You still need to fit in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

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No. the timing is different. You can't look at Revelation as being in Chronological order. You first have to cut the book in half with Chapter 12 being a reset in Chronology., otherwise you have duplicated events and Jesus claiming the Kingdom at the 7th trumpet then giving it back to Satan right away. Which is silly.

The 42 months I'd say start at the 5th seal, because that is when you specifically start having martyrs. The 42 months is when you specifically have the beast making war against the saints. It's also when Jesus says that the Great Tribulation is. That indicator is shown timing wise best by the 5th seal. Some people look at the 7 trumpets and vials as taking place over the course of a single year, citing Noah's flood lasting for 1 year and 10 days.
I'm not dogmatic about that idea, in fact I dispute it because the 6th trumpet seems to say it takes 1 year and 1 month, and that is allowing for overlap of the 5th trumpet (5 months) and 6th trumpet.
I just know at some (unknown) point during the 42 months the 6th seal happens and then that same day, the 7th seal and first trumpet start. Literally half an hour after 7th seal is the first trumpet burning 1/3 of the trees and all the green grass.
The 7 trumpets take some time, in fact a lot of it seems to be the effects of an asteroid impact and a supervolcano, the ash that covers 1/3 of the sky is something that'll take a year or so to experience the brunt of... but the vials don't really give any kind of timing markers like a few of the trumpets do. You can either say that the vials happen all sequentially after the trumpets and are short term very severe judgements, or that they take place interlaced with the trumpets (some seem connected especially the 6th and 7th)
One thing I'd argue though is that the 5th vial specifically takes place before the 7th trumpet.. why?
Let's look.

Revelation 11:15

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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At the 7th trumpet, thats the end of all Earthly Kingdoms, and dominion passes to Jesus.

Revelation 16.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

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So as of the 5th vial, Jesus has not claimed the Kingdom yet. It's still the beast's kingdom. 7th trumpet has not happened yet.

Anyway, I don't know the exact total length of time for the wrath of God. I just know that the Church will not be here during it, just before the wrath of God, bot narratives, both after the 6th seal, and in Revelation 14, the saints are raptured and are next seen in heaven rejoicing.... not going through the trumpets and vials.