The Holiness and Righteousness of God

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If Jesus died so everyone could sin freely, what’s the point? We could have just continued in sin and He died in vain. Jesus did not die so we could sin freely, otherwise we would not need grace. If there is no grace, there is no need for a Savior, and we would all be lost. Jesus does not force us to obey Him, thats a choice we make. If Jesus took away our free will to obey (Keeps the law for us) than God would have made us all robots and sin would have never been introduced in the first place. Jesus wants to obey because we love. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 Our sin is not greater than our God, at least that is what I believe. God said all things are possible and that includes gaining victory over sin. Keeping the commandments are not burdensome 1 John 5:3

You might want to consider this warning in Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

We don’t want to find ourselves in this position when Jesus comes back:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Genuine converts to Christ don't sin freely. They walk in the light as Christ is in the light. They walk in the Spirit and therefore don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The Holy Spirit produces love, joy, peace, gentileness, kindness, faithfulness, patience, goodness and self control in them. This is the fruit of the Spirit, the evidence that the person is genuinely converted to Christ and filled with the Spirit. When these are manifest in the believer, the Law fades away because it is the Law of sin and death. It is replaced by the Law of the Spirit and life in Christ and is evidenced by the fruit of the Spirit.

If a person thinks they have to follow the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law, this may be an indication that the person is not genuinely converted to Christ, but has just merely "got religion", even though it may be the Christian religion.
 
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fhansen

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Firstly, I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in Pentecostal churches. Then I left that movement for a number of reasons. I think it was after I discovered English Puritan authors, and discovered that most Pentecostal preachers tend to bang on one string rather than use the whole orchestra. Also, in my last Charismatic church (mixture of Baptist and Open Brethren plus a few Presbyterians and Pentecostals) was either having one foot in the world, or very legalistic, and having a self-appointed "senior elder" who was very controlling when some unfortunate victims experienced spiritual abuse. I became very disillusioned with the whole thing and decided to part ways. I spent a couple years with an Anglican church, then around eight years in Baptist churches in Christchurch and Dunedin, and then settled into 23 years as an elder of the Presbyterian church. But I never became a cessationist though.

So my ID as a "Pentecostal" on the forum is the only one I could find that enabled me to post and debate in the appropriate "spirit filled" and "spiritual gifts" forums.

While as a Pentecostal I was somewhere between Arminian and Calvinist. I read the first 400 page volume of Arminius' works and found that although he opposed Pelagius, he didn't agree with Calvin either. Actually, he was much more tolerant than Calvin with dissenters, and is reputed to live a more holy life. I think that Arminius was the victim of bad press from the dominant Calvinists of his time.

Read the Puritan authors gave me a much stronger foundation than the Pentecostals, and in recent years have gained many pearls of wisdom from Calvin's Bible commentaries. So, you could call me a Calvinist Continuist if I need a label.

Concerning the prospect of genuine converts losing their salvation, my answer is that if a person is truly converted to Christ, and has Christ revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, and has resulting on-going fellowship with Him on a personal level, why should he want to walk away from Christ? If the person has truly been converted and transformed so that walking with Christ has become his new nature, I can't see that his new nature would allow him to reject Christ and lose his salvation. Walking with Christ is much more than having fire insurance policy to keep out of hell, and a ticket to get into heaven.

I tried to be a good Christian for the first two years of my Christian life, but I knew that although I did everything expected of me on the religious level, there was something missing. I didn't know God on a personal level. I came to the point where I thought, "What is the point of all this religious stuff if I don't know the God behind it all?" So, I sought God with all my heart to get to the place where I could actually meet Him personally. It all came to a head when I got out in the middle of a park on a starry night, looked up and said, "I know that you are in earshot of my voice, and I am telling you that unless I meet you personally, I'm going to throw all this religious stuff way and go back into the world to enjoy my life." Then I said, "I have come to introduce myself to you. You are God and I am me, and I'm very glad to meet you!"

I can't tell you how it happened, but one moment I didn't know the Lord, and the next I did. I felt all lit up inside and heard a distinct voice in my mind, like my own thoughts but somehow different. He said, "We have been waiting for you to put aside the religious stuff and come directly to us." He then said, "Walk before Me and be perfect." After that He said, "This is life eternal that you know the only true God and His Son Jesus Christ." I didn't know where those verse were in the Bible, and went and looked them up later on. After that I decided that now I was in personal contact with the Lord, I decided to ask Him all the questions I had. He answered them all right from the Bible with verses I didn't know where in the Bible and I had to look those up later.

When I got back among my Christian friends, they said, "You are different. What happened to you?" I knew what had happened. I met the Lord personally. That was April 1969, nearly 52 years ago. I believe that was when I was genuinely converted to Christ. It was a total transformation of my heart and attitude toward the Lord. The Bible became a new and living book to me. Prayer became different. Instead of trying to be religious in my prayers, I could speak to Him like He is my best friend. Some of my best times of prayer was walking along a long, isolated beach, with my hands in my pockets, chatting with the Lord about anything that came to mind. When I discussed Scripture with Him, fresh thoughts and insights came to mind that caused me to know that God was speaking back to me, teaching me sound doctrine.

After entering into a relationship with the Lord like that, it has and is unthinkable for me to desert my Saviour who made Himself real to me and showed me that He enjoys having fellowship with me. He gave me the Scripture, "Truly our fellowship is with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ." That is fellowship like no other. It is part of my nature and so much a part of my life that there is no way that I would depart from Him at any time. One day I will meet Him, and get a pleasant surprise to recognise Him as the Person I have walked with and fellowshiped with all my life.

So, I believe that a person who says he or she is a genuine Christian, who can just walk away from the Lord, doesn't really know Jesus at all. They just know about Him. That haven't actually met Him yet.
My experience with Pentecostalism was very much like yours. And while I haven't read Arminius I know the basic posotions and chuckle a bit at the comparison to Calvin- your distinction between the two wouldn't suprise me much. Anyway, before I became Pentecostal I had met God, connected to a series of other, related spiritual experiences-all orchestrated by a Being of infinite, yet knowable love, while all far beyond my ability to imagine or produce. If I could I'd be in that "place" right now. Those experiences were so ineffably profound that later I thought it good to join others who were unashamedly open to such workings of His in us. The problem was that I never saw such a thing there-just other stuff-long story.

Anyway, even with such experiences I don't believe our theology necessarily and suddenly becomes 100% perfect. We simply know the Object of theology better, in the direct manner that He wants us to know Him, which is the very purpose of our faith. And I know that, to the extent that a person loves God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves, their "bonding" with Him would be complete, and sin would be totally done away with in us. That's where He ultimately wants us-and where He'll get us as we get on board, stay on board, get back on board if we slip off, cooperating, seeking to do His will the best we can in the overall scheme of things and growing in that conviction, that righteousness, that love. Anyway, that's how I've experienced things thus far.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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If a person thinks they have to follow the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law, this may be an indication that the person is not genuinely converted to Christ, but has just merely "got religion", even though it may be the Christian religion.

I think you have that backwards, if you don’t love God which according to God is shown through our obedience, how can you be genuinely converted to Christ?

According to God you obey the commandments because that how you show love. Do you think not showing love to God is God’s will for us?

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

It sounds to be me people who don’t want to keep the commandments has a problem with love. Love is the fulfillment of the law which is shown through our obedience.

Daniel had enough faith to obey God. He refused to break the commandments and was willing to die for his faith, pretty sure he was converted to God.

If you are walking in the Spirit you are obeying, not disobeying according to Jesus who gives us the Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18

Peace is a fruit of the Spirit which we receive though keeping and loving God’s law

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble.

According to scripture God’s saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 so it appears you have a great misunderstanding on why you keep the commandments and the benefits of obeying God.

God bless
 
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My experience with Pentecostalism was very much like yours. And while I haven't read Arminius I know the basic posotions and chuckle a bit at the comparison to Calvin- your distinction between the two wouldn't suprise me much. Anyway, before I became Pentecostal I had met God, connected to a series of other, related spiritual experiences-all by a Being of infinite, yet knowable love, while all far beyond my ability to imagine or produce. If I could I'd be in that "place" right now. Those experiences were so ineffably profound that later I thought it good to join others who were unashamedly open to such workings of His in us. The problem was that I never saw such a thing there-just other stuff-long story.

Anyway, even with such experiences I don't believe our theology necessarily and suddenly becomes 100% perfect. We simply know the Object of theology better, in the direct manner that He wants us to know Him, which is the very purpose of our faith. And I know that, to the extent that a person loves God with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves, their "bonding" with Him would be complete, and sin would be totally done away with in us. That's where He ultimately wants us-and where He'll get us as we get on board, stay on board, get back on board if we slip off, cooperating, seeking to do His will the best we can in the overall scheme of things and growing in that conviction, that righteousness, that love. Anyway, that's how I've experienced things thus far.
In the 12 years I was involved with the Pentecostal movement, I never had any "experiences" at all. I heard people talk about experiences, and I wondered what was wrong with me that I never had any. When I "met" the Lord, as I have described in my previous post, it wasn't an "experience" as such. It was more of a realisation that Jesus Christ was real and alive and speaking to my spirit. I asked Him how He does speak to me. He explained that He speaks to my spirit, because it is a Spirit to spirit communication, and it is my mind that interprets what my spirit receives. How that happens is a mystery. But that is not unusual because the inner workings of my computer and how when I type on the keyboard, how the writing appears on the screen, is a mystery to me, but it works. It's also like my microwave when I put my breakfast muesli in it for 60 seconds to heat it up a bit. I turn it on and it goes. Everything else about it is a mystery to me.

So, being there one minute not having any awareness of the living Christ, and then the next being deeply aware of Christ who is now speaking to me with a definite quality of thoughts I had never had before, is a mystery to me, but it happened, and is still happening. In fact, it has never stopped since April 1969. How I can I ask questions to God and then receive the exact verse of Scripture that answers them, is a mystery to me, but it happens. I have never memorised Scripture, and some verses have come that I have not thought about for up to 30 years. At one time I was struggling with an issue and not knowing the answer to it. I was woken up at 3am with a reference from Psalms going around and around in my head. It was so strong in my mind that I couldn't go back to sleep until I looked it up in my Bible. It was the exact verse of Scripture that answered my question and totally resolved the issue! I didn't know what the reference was until I looked it up. How did that happen? I don't know, except that God made sure that I got His answer loud and clear!

It is interesting to note that God speaking to me like that through the Scriptures never really happened while I was in the Pentecostal movement. It has happened only in the last 20 years, and I at first didn't realise it was God speaking the answers to my questions. I thought it was just my own recollection of Scripture, until a couple of times verses of Scripture came to me that I didn't know they were even in the Bible!

But I seem to be able to know the difference between my own thoughts and when God has been speaking to me. I can't tell you how I know the difference because His voice comes to me just like my own thoughts, and when it comes I somehow know beyond doubt. Sometimes it comes through me thinking through an issue and through the process of meditating (not the transcendental kind) on what God's attitude might be, that I have realised that God has made His attitude clear to me.

One example was when during my storm and stress years between marriages, I lived with a girlfriend for a year. Then I got the opportunity to attend university and teacher training, but it couldn't happen in the city where we were living. I had to move to Christchurch to do combined university and teacher training. So my girlfriend and I had an amicable separation, because she had her career in Wellington and didn't want to give it up. She understood that this was something I had wanted to do for some time, so there was no bitterness about separating. I got to my home town, halfway between Wellington and Christchurch when I receive a letter saying that because I didn't have University Entrance qualification I couldn't do the teacher training. I had to apply to the Director General of Education for his discretion to be able to do the training. I asked the Lord what was happening since the board who interviewed me were unanimous in accepting me for training. These were the thoughts that came to me: "I stopped it." "Why?" I asked. "We have something to work out here. If you go back to Wellington do your university courses there and resume your relationship, I won't be with you, but if you go on to Christchurch even though you don't know if you are going to be allowed to do the teacher training, and don't know where you are going to live once you get there, I will be waiting for you. Your choice, no pressure." This wasn't a voice that spoke in my head. It was more of a realisation of what God would say and I interpreted what I sensed in my spirit that He was saying. I then said, "What choice do I have?" The next day I was on the train to Christchurch, and when I got there, I found a place in a hostel next to the university, and a week later was accepted for teacher training at the discretion of the Director General. This was just one of the times where I just knew that God spoke to me about a serious choice that I needed to make. The issue was not whether I went back to live with my girlfriend or not. It was whether I was going to go where Christ would go with me or not. Going back to Wellington would have been a rejection of Christ, and that would have given more more problems than solutions for my future.

One of the interesting things that I asked the Lord when He first started fellowshiping with me was about visions, dreams, and experiences that I had heard about while a Pentecostal. He told me that I didn't need them, because I was in direct fellowship with Him. He said that people received visions and dreams because there was no other way in which He could get their attention. But He now had my attention and so He could continue speaking to me without resorting to visions or dreams or any other kind of sensory experience. In fact, He let me know that those who seek visions, dreams and sensory experiences, the devil is always there to give them one.
 
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I think you have that backwards, if you don’t love God which according to God is shown through our obedience, how can you be genuinely converted to Christ?

According to God you obey the commandments because that how you show love. Do you think not showing love to God is God’s will for us?

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

It sounds to be me people who don’t want to keep the commandments has a problem with love. Love is the fulfillment of the law which is shown through our obedience.

Daniel had enough faith to obey God. He refused to break the commandments and was willing to die for his faith, pretty sure he was converted to God.

If you are walking in the Spirit you are obeying, not disobeying according to Jesus who gives us the Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18

Peace is a fruit of the Spirit which we receive though keeping and loving God’s law

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble.

According to scripture God’s saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 so it appears you have a great misunderstanding on why you keep the commandments and the benefits of obeying God.

God bless
The problem is in the definition of loving and keeping God's Law. Just because I don't follow Christ by complying with a set of external rules doesn't mean that I don't love God's Law. God's Law shows us His nature and character. It is how God conducts Himself. God is loving, joyful, peaceable, gentle, kind, patient, faithful, good and self controlled. Being conformed to the image of Christ means that the Holy Spirit within us is developing the nature of God in us through the fruit of the Spirit. I don't have to put effort into obey the Law as a set of external rules that I must follow. The Holy Spirit is building the Law of the Spirit of life into me as I walk in the light with Christ. Therefore I am not lawless. In fact, I am very strict in my conduct. There is no way that I would do anything willful to dishonour Christ. My conduct toward God and others is strictly monitored by the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I have viewed the Adentist.com site and read through the comprehensive rules that anyone as a member of the SDA church must follow. Even though Adventists say they are just another Christian church and that being SDA is not essential to being a Christian, the church teaches strict adherence to its rules based on the Mosaic Law as the qualification of being a real Christian. So what the church says, and what it does are two different things. I could never be accepted as a member of that church because my position is that because I am being led of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I don't need to sign up to agree to the rules of the church as stated in the Adventist.com site, because I am already fulfilling the Law of God in the way I live my life in the Spirit. But it is not the SDA way and therefore would not be admitted as a full member of that church. That is the issue that we have here.
 
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fhansen

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I don't really give the time to debate the differences between Reformation and Catholic theology. I really don't care. I just go on what the Bible says and the insights I receive from the Lord in the Scriptures.

I put the development of my sanctification and holiness in the Lord's hands, and concentrate on fellowshiping with Him. Anything that I do that interrupts my peace, I go to the Lord and talk it over with Him and follow what He tells me. Usually He points me to 1 John 1:9 and once I have talked about my failure to him He assures me that I am totally forgiven and cleansed. I don't try to compensate for my shortcomings and failures by trying to be more holy than what I am. I just relax and rest in Christ and allow myself to be led by the Spirit. There is nothing I can do of myself to improve who I am, and the bottom line for me is, "I am just a poor sinner, and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all."

Because I know the Lord and have daily fellowship with Him, and that I have the righteousness of Christ to cover my shortcomings and failures, I am not afraid to talk to the Lord about them, because there is no guilt or fear of penalty. I don't have to cover myself in sackcloth and ashes and grovel to the Lord for mercy and forgiveness every time I fall off the holiness wagon. I just tell him that I struck out this time and ask for His grace to ensure that I don't fall off the wagon again. Then I just carry on fellowshipping with Him as before. I guess He has to forgive me constantly, and if He told Peter that he needed to forgive seventy times seven, which is a Hebrew expression for "infinite", then I know that whenever I need forgiveness, He forgives and forgets. I don't have any secrets from the Lord, and therefore have the peace and assurance that when I come up for Judgment, nothing will come out of the woodwork that the Lord hasn't heard it from me already.

The devil comes up with failures from the past to embarrass and shame us. When that happens I refuse to take on board sins and failures that the Lord has buried in the deepest sea of His forgetfulness. If I tried in my own strength to improve my holiness, the Lord would say to me, "Get your hands off your life. Don't get in My way of doing it in you by My Spirit!"
I'm also unafraid to continously talk to the Lord about my sins; I know His shoulders are enormous, His mercy and acceptance boundless, His love unconditional. My only concerns are about myself, my weaknesses, sin, the pride that rears its ugly head from time to time-or often. That's what separates man from God to begin with while love opposes that, and unites us to Him. I know that just as He rightfully demands faith, for our own good, He wants the same for the virtues of hope and love.

My only gains in holiness never come as a result of my own strength but usually in my greatest weaknesses, when I'm in the middle of sin perhaps, and desparate for a way out of that slavery while not necessarily expecting to get it-and He grants me wisdon and understanding instead of condemnation, grace despite the sin. My goal is to be more and more like Him-and I won't presume; I'll rely on Him to let me know how well that's taken place at the end of the day. But just as we aren't forced to believe, He won't force us to love, either.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The problem is in the definition of loving and keeping God's Law. Just because I don't follow Christ by complying with a set of external rules doesn't mean that I don't love God's Law. God's Law shows us His nature and character. It is how God conducts Himself. God is loving, joyful, peaceable, gentle, kind, patient, faithful, good and self controlled. Being conformed to the image of Christ means that the Holy Spirit within us is developing the nature of God in us through the fruit of the Spirit. I don't have to put effort into obey the Law as a set of external rules that I must follow. The Holy Spirit is building the Law of the Spirit of life into me as I walk in the light with Christ. Therefore I am not lawless. In fact, I am very strict in my conduct. There is no way that I would do anything willful to dishonour Christ. My conduct toward God and others is strictly monitored by the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I have viewed the Adentist.com site and read through the comprehensive rules that anyone as a member of the SDA church must follow. Even though Adventists say they are just another Christian church and that being SDA is not essential to being a Christian, the church teaches strict adherence to its rules based on the Mosaic Law as the qualification of being a real Christian. So what the church says, and what it does are two different things. I could never be accepted as a member of that church because my position is that because I am being led of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I don't need to sign up to agree to the rules of the church as stated in the Adventist.com site, because I am already fulfilling the Law of God in the way I live my life in the Spirit. But it is not the SDA way and therefore would not be admitted as a full member of that church. That is the issue that we have here.

So you are just going to disregard all the scriptures that was posted in lieu of your opinion. We do have free will.

The SDA church for the record doesn’t follow the SDA law book, we follow God’s law book. If you read my posts you might notice I only quoted scripture, which does not say its okay to be lawless. It’s more than just obeying God, but why would anyone want to deny Jesus- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. The Spirit is given to those who obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 Sin does not come from God. 1 John 3:8

One thing I think you keep missing, is we all have sinned, but God does not want us to live in a state of perpetual sin. Our God is greater than our sin and when Jesus healed- He said go and sin no more, not go be free to continue sinning.
 
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I'm also unafraid to continously talk to the Lord about my sins; I know His shoulders are enormous, His mercy and acceptance boundless, His love unconditional. My only concerns are about myself, my weaknesses, sin, the pride that rears its ugly head from time to time-or often. That's what separates man from God to begin with while love opposes that, and unites us to Him. I know that just as He rightfully demands faith, for our own good, He wants the same for the virtues of hope and love.

My only gains in holiness never come as a result of my own strength but usually in my greatest weaknesses, when I'm in the middle of sin perhaps, and desparate for a way out of that slavery while not necessarily expecting to get it-and He grants me wisdon and understanding instead of condemnation, grace despite the sin. My goal is to be more and more like Him-and I won't presume; I'll rely on Him to let me know how well that's taken place at the end of the day. But just as we aren't forced to believe, He won't force us to love, either.
Nicely said. :)
 
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So you are just going to disregard all the scriptures that was posted in lieu of your opinion. We do have free will.

The SDA church for the record doesn’t follow the SDA law book, we follow scripture. It’s more than just obeying God, but why would anyone want to deny Jesus- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15. The Spirit is given to those who obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 Sin does not come from God. 1 John 3:8

One thing I think you keep missing, is we all have sinned, but God does not want us to live in a state of perpetual sin. Our God is greater than our sin and when Jesus healed- He said go and sin no more, not go be free to continue sinning.
I've said all I am going to say on definitions of observance to the Law based on different interpretation of Scripture concerning it.
 
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SamInNi

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What about the Scriptures "Be ye holy as I [God] am holy" (1 Peter 1:16), and, "Without holiness no man can see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Because it is impossible for us through our own efforts to attain the standard of holiness that God requires, ie: the standard of holiness that God Himself has, we cannot be accepted by the Lord on our own merits. Even if I give all my effort to be sanctified, I will still come short of the standard required (perfect compliance with the moral Law). Paul was quite clear about that when he said, "All have come short of the glory of God", and "There is none righteous, no, not one."
Hello Oscar. I hope you’re keeping safe and well. Without God's help – when we are not being led by the Spirit – yes, you are absolutely correct. Human effort will accomplish nothing. We need to be abiding in Christ, remaining in Him daily (see John 15:5)

To properly understand the sense in which we are to be “holy”, and how God exists eternally in perfect holiness, we must keep in mind that we were all born separated from Him by sin. Because of our stubborn sinful nature we are often in conflict:

“For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want” (Galatians 5:17).​

But there is an ongoing solution for this – being led by the Spirit and continuing to walk by the Spirit, following Christ. Our daily attitude must be Christward. “Perfect compliance with the moral Law,” as you put it, is impossible. You're right.

Although I’m not a God-appointed teacher, I could expand on this at length (and have done so HERE mainly under the "Sin and Sins" and “Self” headings), or you could do a search if you feel you need to.
 
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Jesus is speaking of himself (not absence of a lying spirit), and that they should recognize that he was not self-seeking.

Since no one is true except God the Father (John 3:3, John 8:26) and now Jesus, Jesus ranks with God.

He will appear a second time, not to bear sin (1 Peter 2:24), but to bring salvation; i.e., the fulfillment of the salvation (Romans 8:22-23, Romans 8:29-30; Philippians 3:20-21; 1 John 3:2-3) that he purchased for us on the cross.



We are to put away the false spirit, to speak in the true Spirit..



Acts 26:25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.


Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.




When anyone believes in Christ rising it is true belief and then the lying spirit is put away( that previously could not believe in anything true until grace and truth came by Christ and His resurrection, and sin and the commiting of it, is nailed to His cross)
 
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Christian7777777

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"You are a chosen people. . .belonging to God that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (1 Peter 2:9)

It seems we are chosen for the purpose of declaring his praises, as distinct from showing his light.




God is light, we show praise to God when we declare the same, in declaring light..




1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
 
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Christian7777777

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If I may. God did not create man to be a sinner. God does not want man to fall short of His glory, of the potential He created us with. And, while we're fallen, He nonetheless has a perfection in mind for us, proper to our created natures. So, ultimately, if we're to be with Him, that perfection, that "telos", will be attained even if not fully until the next life. But we're to start on that path, that "journey to perfcetion" as it's been called, now, and that's only possible as we begin to align ourselves with God, entering union with Him as we come to believe in Him and His goodness and His promsies to mankind. We only truly know Him through His Son. So when Jesus says to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect, He means it! That should be our goal.



How can perfection be attained by being imperfect ?

Jesus showed how to be perfect, as you just quoted, by doing better than those who only do for imperfect reasons, everything they do.

Now, contrariwise, you do all for better reasons. ( this is the righteous belief in the risen Lord, a better hope and a better conscience)
 
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Christian7777777

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If you find yourself not keeping God’s law, that spirit in not led by God. Many people deceive themselves thinking they can be in the Spirit and be living in perpetual sin. Sin is defined as breaking God’s laws 1 John 3:4 and Jesus tells us He gives us the Spirit so we can obey the commandments, not disobey. John 14:15-18. If you are truly in the Spirit, you will be obeying the law of God and thats an easy way to test yourself if you are in the faith.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



keep Gods law by bearing others burdens, break it by doing for ourselves instead.


Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
 
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Christian7777777

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Hello Oscar. I hope you’re keeping safe and well. Without God's help – when we are not being led by the Spirit – yes, you are absolutely correct. Human effort will accomplish nothing. We need to be abiding in Christ, remaining in Him daily (see John 15:5)

To properly understand the sense in which we are to be “holy”, and how God exists eternally in perfect holiness, we must keep in mind that we were all born separated from Him by sin. Because of our stubborn sinful nature we are often in conflict:

“For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want” (Galatians 5:17).​

But there is an ongoing solution for this – being led by the Spirit and continuing to walk by the Spirit, following Christ. Our daily attitude must be Christward. “Perfect compliance with the moral Law,” as you put it, is impossible. You're right.

Although I’m not a God-appointed teacher, I could expand on this at length (and have done so HERE mainly under the "Sin and Sins" and “Self” headings), or you could do a search if you feel you need to.




If you are in the flesh you do what is in the flesh, now you are no longer supposed to be in it..





Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
 
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Christian7777777

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I think you have that backwards, if you don’t love God which according to God is shown through our obedience, how can you be genuinely converted to Christ?

According to God you obey the commandments because that how you show love. Do you think not showing love to God is God’s will for us?

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

It sounds to be me people who don’t want to keep the commandments has a problem with love. Love is the fulfillment of the law which is shown through our obedience.

Daniel had enough faith to obey God. He refused to break the commandments and was willing to die for his faith, pretty sure he was converted to God.

If you are walking in the Spirit you are obeying, not disobeying according to Jesus who gives us the Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18

Peace is a fruit of the Spirit which we receive though keeping and loving God’s law

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble.

According to scripture God’s saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus Revelation 14:12 so it appears you have a great misunderstanding on why you keep the commandments and the benefits of obeying God.

God bless




If we love in the greatest love, it is in laying our life down for others, it is in forsaking all we have, it is not in lesser matters, as if straining at a gnat matters..


Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
 
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Christian7777777

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I'm also unafraid to continously talk to the Lord about my sins; I know His shoulders are enormous, His mercy and acceptance boundless, His love unconditional. My only concerns are about myself, my weaknesses, sin, the pride that rears its ugly head from time to time-or often. That's what separates man from God to begin with while love opposes that, and unites us to Him. I know that just as He rightfully demands faith, for our own good, He wants the same for the virtues of hope and love.

My only gains in holiness never come as a result of my own strength but usually in my greatest weaknesses, when I'm in the middle of sin perhaps, and desparate for a way out of that slavery while not necessarily expecting to get it-and He grants me wisdon and understanding instead of condemnation, grace despite the sin. My goal is to be more and more like Him-and I won't presume; I'll rely on Him to let me know how well that's taken place at the end of the day. But just as we aren't forced to believe, He won't force us to love, either.




Pride is hidden from man, when God hides it, it is burned out of them..



Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.


Psalm 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.


Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


Zephaniah 3:12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.
13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
 
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Christian7777777

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What do all of the disputers, debaters, talkers, think they have discovered, in the many years, each and every one of them have been occupied with this forum, or other forums they go to, and what is so important to them to keep endlessly talking and discussing, that they consider that is what pleases God ?


What they show yesterday, what I had to correct them on all things, is the same as they will answer back again today, and what they will talk to each other about, meaning it is pure vanity, and for what purpose ?

The purpose of God is charity, this is what he showed, and this is what you ought to have learned, to teach, and strop the chat and go do it, that is all that is worth learning., But of courser their point and aim is to say we are not saved by works, so they think they are somehow saved by words instead ?

if anyone of them were meant to have a conscience and shame, they would stay very silent ( as they are silenced).
 
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fhansen

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How can perfection be attained by being imperfect ?
Jesus. Man is inherently imperfect relative to God, who is infinitely perfect. And yet all creation has a purpose involving a perfection proper to its nature, to what it is as a created being according to Gods wisdom. God makes everything good, and, again, certainly did not make man to be a sinner. Man, unique to creation, is made in Gods own image and his particular perfection or purpose can only be attained if and when in union with God. Jesus is that union and accomplishes it in us as well. He shows it to us-that it can and is meant to be realized in man-and gives it to us as He reveals and reconciles us with the Creator whom fallen man is alienated from. Only in “partnership” with God can man be who he was created to be. Adam proves that autonomy from Him is an ugly affair; we’re here in his fallen world of exile from our Creator to learn just that:
Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5
 
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fhansen

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Pride is hidden from man, when God hides it, it is burned out of them..
He’s the only one who can do it, and pride is absolutely absurd and worthless in His presence. It opposes Him by its nature and His love opposes it by its nature. But in this life we’ll struggle with pride until the day we die.
 
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