Leaf473

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Matthew 4:4 But he [Jesus] answered and said, It is written[a], Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

a. Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 8, which is a direct reference to the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 8:3: And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

Manna: Food gathering in preparation for the Sabbath, one of the Ten Commandments.

If we start at the beginning of Deuteronomy 8:

Deuteronomy 8:1-2 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers. And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

What commandments? All. The same commandments given to Moses by God, written in stone by His own hand.
And what of love God and love others?

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On the two commandments of love hang all the law and the prophets ("...every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"). This then would include all commandments that show us how to love God and love others.​

Jesus told His disciples:

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Was what Jesus taught different than the law of God? No.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 5:17-22

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil[c].

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled[c].

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill [the Ten Commandments]; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca [worthless; not loving your brother], shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

c. Fulfill
  1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
    1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
  2. to render full, i.e. to complete
    1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
    2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
    3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Conclusion: Every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, the law and the prophets, is love. Ever commandment that shows us how to love God and love others is a commandment to be obeyed. Teach all nations, not just the Jews.​
Thanks for your response.

So the conclusion:
Ever commandment that shows us how to love God and love others is a commandment to be obeyed.
Sounds great so far!

I'm assuming that the commandments that "show us how to love God and others" are the same as the universal laws in the thread title.

You have described what you believe to be the universal laws. I had asked for a list. Can you list them?
 
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BobRyan

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Do you agree that Joshua keeping the weekly Sabbath was different than entering the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9? After all, Joshua didn't bring the kind of Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9, but we know he would've kept the weekly Sabbath (since he was a faithful Jew following God, after all).

your post is to guevaraj - who has his own one-off views here. But assuming you want the classic POV response from a Sabbath keeping group larger than "1" ---

Hebrews 4 says it "remains" as it was in the days of David in Ps 95
6 Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you would hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 “When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
10 “For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 “Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”​
 
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BobRyan

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The reason Joshua was unsuccessful in giving them God's seventh day "rest" of creation is because he assumed that the Sabbath God gave in the Promised Land is the seventh day of the week

As we both know - you are a group of 1 - proposing that idea. You have free will and can post whatever you wish - but I would hope you could remove the fog enough to admit this is your own idea so as not to mislead the readers.
 
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guevaraj

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As we both know - you are a group of 1 - proposing that idea. You have free will and can post whatever you wish - but I would hope you could remove the fog enough to admit this is your own idea so as not to mislead the readers.
Brother, already in 1953 our people understood that from evening to morning is the period that God called "night" and that the days in Genesis begin in the “morning”, having ended in the “morning”. Written was the SDA Bible commentary from 1953 to 1957, as stated in wikipedia.org. I highlight the end of the second paragraph on its comment on verse 5 of chapter 1 of Genesis. While it is true that the first "evening" preceded the first "morning", what is not said is that you cannot have an "evening" without having light first. What was before the light was "darkness" and not "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable.

Some have thought creative act lasted one night, from the evening to the morning; and others, that every day began with the morning, although the inspired Record states plainly that the evening preceded the morning. (SDA Bible Commentary, found online)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Kilk1

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Brother, you have it backwards! Joshua entered the Sabbath in the Promised Land because the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening is not a day of the week compared to when God prevented them from entering when it was the seventh day of the week from morning to morning in the desert with Manna.

The reason Joshua was unsuccessful in giving them God's seventh day "rest" of creation is because he assumed that the Sabbath God gave in the Promised Land is the seventh day of the week when it is not because God taught them to remember the Sabbath in the Eden time zone. Judaism's tradition since Joshua has the Sabbath wrong outside of the Promised Land because what God was teaching with the Manna story did Joshua no good.

For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. (Hebrews 4:2 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
I feel somewhat confused, so to try avoiding confusion: Does the Sabbath rest that remains (Hebrews 4:9) occur once a week (regardless of time zone), or is it different than merely something that occurs once a week?
 
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Kilk1

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your post is to guevaraj - who has his own one-off views here. But assuming you want the classic POV response from a Sabbath keeping group larger than "1" ---

Hebrews 4 says it "remains" as it was in the days of David in Ps 95
6 Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you would hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 “When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
10 “For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 “Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”​
Would you agree, therefore, that the Sabbath rest that remains isn't the weekly Sabbath but rather something that can be aimed for "today"? Not even Joshua could be said to have brought the Sabbath rest that remains when he brought the Israelites into Canaan.

If the Sabbath rest that remains for the children of God is the weekly Sabbath, wouldn't this mean that Joshua and the people didn't keep the weekly Sabbath after Canaan? It seems better to say that the Sabbath rest that remains is Christ's heavenly rest.
 
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guevaraj

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I feel somewhat confused, so to try avoiding confusion: Does the Sabbath rest that remains (Hebrews 4:9) occur once a week (regardless of time zone), or is it different than merely something that occurs once a week?
Brother, you are correct in discerning from God's message in Hebrews 3 and 4 that there is an issue with Joshua's understanding of God's Sabbath because the instruction he "heard" written for us in the Manna story "did him no good".

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

The Manna story shows that keeping the seventh day of the week near the Promised Land from morning to morning does not enter God's Sabbath that they did enter later in the Promised Land from evening to evening, a different time for the Sabbath than with Manna in the desert. The problem is not with entering God's "rest" in the Promised Land on the Sabbath but with the assumption that it's the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land as it was on the seventh day of creation. The Sabbath in the Promised Land is correct but because it is not the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land we who are outside of the Promised Land are not entering God's "rest" by keeping the seventh day of the week. The Sabbath that God taught in the Promised Land occurs once a week, but it does not fall on a weekday. The Sabbath in the Promised Land falls 10 hours before the local seventh day in the Promised Land. This 10 hour difference gives us the site of our origin from the Promised Land where God taught us to count the days with the week. God defined a day in Genesis different from how He taught the Sabbath in the Promised Land because He set the Sabbath for all to enter together as He entered it on creation week. Understanding the message in Hebrews 3 and 4 starts in Genesis. An "evening" can only occur after the light. Before the light there was "darkness" and not an "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable. The "evening" of the first day occurred after first light and falls in the middle of the first day. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Leaf473

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Brother, you are correct in discerning from God's message in Hebrews 3 and 4 that there is an issue with Joshua's understanding of God's Sabbath because the instruction he "heard" written for us in the Manna story "did him no good".

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

The Manna story shows that keeping the seventh day of the week near the Promised Land from morning to morning does not enter God's Sabbath that they did enter later in the Promised Land from evening to evening, a different time for the Sabbath than with Manna in the desert. The problem is not with entering God's "rest" in the Promised Land on the Sabbath but with the assumption that it's the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land as it was on the seventh day of creation. The Sabbath in the Promised Land is correct but because it is not the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land we who are outside of the Promised Land are not entering God's "rest" by keeping the seventh day of the week. The Sabbath that God taught in the Promised Land occurs once a week, but it does not fall on a weekday. The Sabbath in the Promised Land falls 10 hours before the local seventh day in the Promised Land. This 10 hour difference gives us the site of our origin from the Promised Land where God taught us to count the days with the week. God defined a day in Genesis different from how He taught the Sabbath in the Promised Land because He set the Sabbath for all to enter together as He entered it on creation week. Understanding the message in Hebrews 3 and 4 starts in Genesis. An "evening" can only occur after the light. Before the light there was "darkness" and not an "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable. The "evening" of the first day occurred after first light and falls in the middle of the first day. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
(jumping in here)

So... not technically a day of the week, but rather a 24-hour period that occurs once every week?
 
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guevaraj

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(jumping in here) So... not technically a day of the week, but rather a 24-hour period that occurs once every week?
Brother, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week in Eden, but not in the Promised Land where it falls 10 hours before the local seventh day of the week. This earlier time difference of 10 hours gives us the site of Eden from the Promised Land and it falls near the International Date Line (IDL). This means that the International Date Line is not arbitrary but God established His prime meridian in the beginning, recorded by the Sabbath in the Promised Land. Judaism does not like where it is because it has not understood God's weekdays from morning to morning in Genesis because they assumed that a Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening is a day of the week when it is not and actually falls between two days of the week from morning to morning as established by God in Genesis. An "evening" can only occur after the light. Before the light there was "darkness" and not an "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable. The "evening" of the first day occurred after first light and falls in the middle of the first day. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Would you agree, therefore, that the Sabbath rest that remains isn't the weekly Sabbath but rather something that can be aimed for "today"?

I would agree that in David's day - in Ps 95 "do not harden your heart" was for every day... every "today" and that David did not see it as something that "deletes/abolishes" the 4th commandment.

Ps 95:
6 Come, let’s worship and bow down,
Let’s kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as at Meribah,
As on the day of Massah in the wilderness,
9 “When your fathers put Me to the test,
They tested Me, though they had seen My work.

Nothing in there says to David's readers -

"today if you will hear His voice stop obeying the 4th commandment"
or
"Today replaces the 4th commandment if you do not harden your heart"​
 
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BobRyan

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If the Sabbath rest that remains for the children of God is the weekly Sabbath, wouldn't this mean that Joshua and the people didn't keep the weekly Sabbath after Canaan?

Heb 4 says "it remains for some to enter"

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

It does not say "failed to enter because heaven was not here then"
And it does not say "failed to enter because the Messiah had not come yet"

It says "failed to enter because of disobedience".

It seems better to say that the Sabbath rest that remains is Christ's heavenly rest.

In that case - none entered -- no not even those Heb 11 OT saints, because Christ's heavenly rest is yet future even to our own day so many thousands of years after David.

But in Matt 17 we see Moses and Elijah in glory and standing with Christ - even before the cross event happens.

So by removing the future heavenly rest as the object - and having only some not enter in those days vs all-not-enter -- it must be that some did enter then (those not in rebellion) and some do enter now.

9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

It looks like it is a type of salvation-rest which the Heb 11 saints entered even in the OT, and which Moses and Elijah are clearly in - in Matt 17, and there are those today who have entered. "The one who HAS entered".

But to make Sabbath a symbol of that reality in David's day that continues to be a reality today - then the Sabbath must itself "remain".

In Heb 10:4-11 we see "Something taken away" -- animal sacrifices.
In Heb 4:9 we see "Something remain" by contrast to "taken away"

Sabbath is a fitting symbol of that which remains from the Ps 95 time of David - since the Sabbath itself remains and as Is 66:23 points out - remains for all eternity after the cross , in the New Earth as the text points out.
 
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Leaf473

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Brother, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week in Eden, but not in the Promised Land where it falls 10 hours before the local seventh day of the week. This earlier time difference of 10 hours gives us the site of Eden from the Promised Land and it falls near the International Date Line (IDL). This means that the International Date Line is not arbitrary but God established His prime meridian in the beginning, recorded by the Sabbath in the Promised Land. Judaism does not like where it is because it has not understood God's weekdays from morning to morning in Genesis because they assumed that a Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening is a day of the week when it is not and actually falls between two days of the week from morning to morning as established by God in Genesis. An "evening" can only occur after the light. Before the light there was "darkness" and not an "evening", those are different words that are not interchangeable. The "evening" of the first day occurred after first light and falls in the middle of the first day. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was LIGHT. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Okay so... In the promised land,
not technically a day of the week, but rather a 24-hour period that occurs once every week?
 
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guevaraj

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Okay so... In the promised land,
not technically a day of the week, but rather a 24-hour period that occurs once every week?
Brother, yes, but it is a specific time that we all enter together when God "rested" on the seventh day of creation.

For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. (Hebrews 4:10 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Bob S

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Sabbath is a fitting symbol of that which remains since the Sabbath itself remains and as Is 66:23 points out - remains for all eternity after the cross , in the New Earth.
And as chapter 65 points out in the "New Earth" man will live to be over 100 years and those that don't reach 100 will be considered cursed. Also verse 17 says “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. Then we go on to verse 24 of the next chapter and it says the following: 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

So much for not remembering or coming to mind. It is not mine to accuse anyone of anything, but something isn't kosher.
 
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Heb 4 says "it remains for some to enter"

6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

It does not say "failed to enter because heaven was not here then"
And it does not say "failed to enter because the Messiah had not come yet"

It says "failed to enter because of disobedience".



In that case - none entered -- no not even those Heb 11 OT saints, because Christ's heavenly rest is yet future even to our own day so many thousands of years after David.

But in Matt 17 we see Moses and Elijah in glory and standing with Christ - even before the cross event happens.

So by removing the future heavenly rest as the object - and having only some not enter in those days vs all-not-enter -- it must be that some did enter then (those not in rebellion) and some do enter now.

9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

It looks like it is a type of salvation-rest which the Heb 11 saints entered even in the OT, and which Moses and Elijah are clearly in - in Matt 17, and there are those today who have entered. "The one who HAS entered".

But to make Sabbath a symbol of that reality in David's day that continues to be a reality today - then the Sabbath must itself "remain".

In Heb 10:4-11 we see "Something taken away" -- animal sacrifices.
In Heb 4:9 we see "Something remain" by contrast to "taken away"

Sabbath is a fitting symbol of that which remains from the Ps 95 time of David - since the Sabbath itself remains and as Is 66:23 points out - remains for all eternity after the cross , in the New Earth as the text points out.
I think that's a good point that it says they didn't enter due to disobedience. This seems to suggest that the rest isn't a rest we don't experience now but will one day experience. Rather, it's an experience we can currently, in the present, enjoy. (It probably also could be said that the rest will be even more fully realized in the future, but either way, it's something we can enjoy "Today," not just in heaven.)

Since 1) people couldn't enter the rest that remains due to disobedience and 2) Joshua was obedient but didn't enter it when the people were brought into Canaan, this tells me the rest is something that is greater than Canaan rest and is something that wasn't fully realized even to the obedient of Joshua's day--but is available (whether in part or in full) today. Does that make sense?

Albert Barnes has an interesting summary of the passage with five bullets. I think most of this makes sense, so long as you understand the heavenly conclusion as being something we can enjoy to some extent even now, in Christ. I'll quote it below:

(1.) That there was a rest called "the rest of God" — spoken of in the earliest period of the world — implying that God meant that it should be enjoyed.

(2.) That the Israelites, to whom the promise was made, failed of obtaining that which was promised by their unbelief.

(3.) That God intended that some should enter into his rest — since it would not be provided in vain.

(4.) That long after the Israelites had fallen in the wilderness, we find the same reference to a rest which David in his time exhorts those whom he addressed to endeavour to obtain.

(5.) That if all that had been meant by the word rest, and by the promise, had been accomplished when Joshua conducted the Israelites to the land of Canaan, we should not have heard another day spoken of when it was possible to forfeit that rest by unbelief. It followed, therefore, that there was something besides that; something that pertained to all the people of God, to which the name rest might still be given, and which they were exhorted still to obtain. The word rest in this verse σαββατισμος Sabbatism, in the margin is rendered keeping of a Sabbath. It is a different word from σαββατον — the Sabbath; and it occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and is not found in the Septuagint. It properly means, a keeping Sabbath — from σαββατιζω to keep Sabbath. This word, not used in the New Testament, occurs frequently in the Septuagint, Ex 16:30 Le 23:32 26:35 2Ch 36:21 and in 3 Esd. i. 58; 2 Mac. vi. 6. It differs from the word Sabbath. That denotes the time — the day, this, the keeping, or observance of it; the festival. It means here, a resting, or an observance of sacred repose — and refers undoubtedly to heaven, as a place of eternal rest with God. It cannot mean the rest in the land of Canaan — for the drift of the writer is to prove that that is not intended. It cannot mean the Sabbath, properly so called — for then the writer would have employed the usual word σαββατον — Sabbath. [...] It must mean, therefore, heaven — the world of spiritual and eternal rest; and the assertion is, that there is such a resting, or keeping of a Sabbath in heaven for the people of God.
 
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Kilk1

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9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

It looks like it is a type of salvation-rest which the Heb 11 saints entered even in the OT, and which Moses and Elijah are clearly in - in Matt 17, and there are those today who have entered. "The one who HAS entered".

But to make Sabbath a symbol of that reality in David's day that continues to be a reality today - then the Sabbath must itself "remain".
Could you elaborate on this section some? I think I'm following but would like to ask three questions just in case:
  1. Are you saying that the rest that remains is not a day of the week but rather something like what Moses and Elijah experience in Matthew 17?
  2. Are you saying that the weekly Sabbath is a type of such a rest?
  3. Finally, are you arguing that 2 being true actually confirms that the weekly Sabbath exists for all eternity, rather than goes against such a view?
Thanks!
 
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BobRyan

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Could you elaborate on this section some? I think I'm following but would like to ask three questions just in case:
  1. Are you saying that the rest that remains is not a day of the week but rather something like what Moses and Elijah experience in Matthew 17?
  2. Are you saying that the weekly Sabbath is a type of such a rest?
  3. Finally, are you arguing that 2 being true actually confirms that the weekly Sabbath exists for all eternity, rather than goes against such a view?
Thanks!

Here is another way to look at it.
1. Animals are real.. .sheep are real, goats are real. They exist and have purpose regardless if we use them as a symbol for something else or not.

2. The Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 is real - a memorial of a real event -- Creation week. Time does not change that. It was given before sin and so has no reference to sin or salvation in its definition "as a thing".

3. Just as sheep and goats are used as symbols of Christ when offered as sin offerings and are also used as symbols of "wicked vs saved" in Matt 25 final judgment symbolism... so also the Sabbath is being used in Heb 4 as a symbol of salvation in David's day and in our day. That which "remains" just as it was in David's day in that use of it as a symbol -- is salvation. Saved by grace through faith. It is handy as a symbol for salvation that continues - in two ways. First that it actually does continue and second in that it already involves rest even without being used as a symbol for something.

4. Your statement that since it is used as a symbol for salvation (the saved state) means it would continue for all eternity is a logical inference... but we have an "explicit" statement in scripture about its continuation after the New Earth for all mankind in Is 66:23. So it is not like the inference you are applying - is the only way we would know this about the future.
 
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Kilk1

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Here is another way to look at it.
1. Animals are real.. .sheep are real, goats are real. They exist and have purpose regardless if we use them as a symbol for something else or not.

2. The Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 is real - a memorial of a real event -- Creation week. Time does not change that. It was given before sin and so has no reference to sin or salvation in its definition "as a thing".

3. Just as sheep and goats are used as symbols of Christ when offered as sin offerings and are also used as symbols of "wicked vs saved" in Matt 25 final judgment symbolism... so also the Sabbath is being used in Heb 4 as a symbol of salvation in David's day and in our day. That which "remains" just as it was in David's day in that use of it as a symbol -- is salvation. Saved by grace through faith. It is handy as a symbol for salvation that continues - in two ways. First that it actually does continue and second in that it already involves rest even without being used as a symbol for something.

4. Your statement that since it is used as a symbol for salvation (the saved state) means it would continue for all eternity is a logical inference... but we have an "explicit" statement in scripture about its continuation after the New Earth for all mankind in Is 66:23. So it is not like the inference you are applying - is the only way we would know this about the future.

I'll start out replying to the fourth point. If Isaiah 66:23 proves we must continue to keep the Sabbath eternally since the verse mentions the Sabbath, then Isaiah 66:23 also proves we must keep the New Moon eternally since the verse mentions the New Moon. That said, there are other points you made that are worth considering.

As for the animal illustration referenced in points 1 and 3, this does show that just because something's a symbol for something else doesn't necessarily prove it's no longer existing. However, what if the Bible specifically tells us that we shouldn't judge others in certain days, and the reason given is because they're symbols of things to come? Colossians 2:16-17 says just that regarding festivals, new moons, and sabbaths, doesn't it?

However, the remaining point, point 2 is worthy of great consideration, in which Genesis says God rests on the seventh day. You use the term "given" to describe it, but the text doesn't say that God gave the Sabbath (or even the seventh day) during the creation week. It can be tempting to assuming that if God rests on the seventh day and hallows the day, that therefore He might have told Adam and Eve to do the same, and that if He told Adam and Eve to do the same, that perhaps it'd apply to all their descendants forever. However, Genesis 2:1-3 simply says that God rested and hallowed the seventh day; it doesn't say whether He told anyone else to do the same or that He "gave" it to anyone at this time. There are two different interpretations people have made about God resting on the seventh day and sanctifying it:

  1. God did this to make the seventh day holy and to share it specifically with His special people, the future, physical nation of Israel. This view seems to be the one held by the Jewish audience to which Moses directly wrote to through Genesis. Or, at least, it's the view held by the Jewish author of Jubilees (pseudepigrapha.com/jubilees/2.htm, notice particularly verses 16-17, 31-32).
  2. God did this to make the seventh day holy and to share it with all mankind. This is the view that I believe you hold to.

Since Jews in particular were the original audience, it's at least somewhat significant that the Jewish author of Jubilees doesn't see any conflict with 1) God making the seventh day holy and 2) the Sabbath being specifically for the Jews, not Gentiles. Who's to say that his interpretation is wrong and yours is correct? I'm sure we'd agree that it isn't any of us, but the word of God itself that's the ultimate authority on what it means. Since Genesis itself doesn't say which interpretation is the correct one, we must go elsewhere. Looking at various Scriptures in this post will take up some space, but if you don't mind, I'll do so now.

Anticipating that this may get brought up, I'll now spend a paragraph on Mark 2:27, which says the Sabbath was made for "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos). In case anyone would consider this passage as proof that everyone must keep the Sabbath, we must be mindful that the verse doesn't tell us whether "man" here means "Jews" (who are men) or "all mankind." Sometimes, the term "man" refers specifically to "Jews" (including Jewish proselytes, of course) when the context is a Jewish practice. In John 7:22-23, for example, Jesus says the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, ánthrōpos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Also, Hebrews 5:1-3 says that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, ánthrōpos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, ánthrōpos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Also, Hebrews 7:28 explains that "the law appoints men [Greek, ánthrōpos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine). I'm sure we agree that since these three passages all refer to obsolete practices of the old covenant, which were just for physical Israel, then "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in these three passages actually refers to "the Jews," not "all mankind." Therefore, if the Scriptures teach that the Sabbath is specifically for physical Israel in connection with the obsolete old covenant, not something for everyone, then "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

So what do the other passages in Scripture teach, then? We already saw in Colossians 2:16-17 that we aren't to be judged in shadows, but the Old Testament itself tells us the Sabbath was specifically for the Jews. For example, the Sabbath wasn't known by the Israelites before Moses taught it since the Sabbath was "made known" to them "By the hand of Moses" (Nehemiah 9:14, NKJV). You can't "make" something known to people if it's already known to them, right?

Was the Sabbath to be given to all nations or to Israel? In Exodus 31:17, God says, "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Notice, it's a "sign" between God and Israel, and the word "for" connects it with the creation week of Genesis. So this is telling us why God rested on the seventh day—as a sign for Israel! If this verse had only said to keep the Sabbath, it'd be possible that nations other than the children of Israel would be expected to observe it. (I say "possible" because we'd have to look elsewhere to see if those other than Israel were commanded.) However, since Exodus 31:17 specifically says it's a "sign" between God and Israel, this makes it impossible that nations other than the children of Israel would be expected to observe it.

How so? Well, we'd agree that circumcision was a sign connected with God's everlasting covenant with Abraham and his children (Genesis 17:10-14), and I think we'd also agree that because circumcision was a "sign" for Abraham and his children, this proves it wasn't for other people, right? After all, how can something be a sign distinguishing Abraham and his children from other people, if everyone was already being circumcised anyway? So if something is given as a sign, not only is it for the ones the sign is between, but it's only for them.

In the same way, since the Sabbath was a sign connected with God's perpetual covenant with Israel, the people taken out of Egypt (Exodus 31:12-18), then it wasn't for the other people. And the reason it's "a sign" (and thus specifically, only) between God and Israel is "for" (because) God rested on the seventh day back in Genesis. This is God's interpretation of why He rested, and so it's the true one. A second reason the Ten Commandments gives for why they should keep the Sabbath is "that you [i.e., the children of national, physical Israel) were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15, NKJV, emphasis mine), which clearly shows that those addressed are the Jews, as they were the ones brought out of Egypt. The fact that they were brought out of Egypt is another reason, "therefore," that they should keep the Sabbath. Let's look again at the two interpretations of why God rested:
  1. God did this to make the seventh day holy and to share it specifically with His special people, the future, physical nation of Israel.
  2. God did this to make the seventh day holy and to share it with all mankind.
The author of Jubilees isn't the only one advocating the first interpretation. In Exodus 31:17, God Himself says that the first interpretation is the correct one. Israel would keep the Sabbath as a sign because God rested on the seventh day, distinguishing them from the other nations. So, like with the seasons of Genesis 1:14 and Psalms 104:19, it appears the seven-day rest also had a future use, for Israel to keep the Sabbath. Again, how can something be a sign for Israel if it already existed for everyone?

This post is getting lengthy, but I'll close with Ezekiel 20:12: "Therefore I made them [i.e., physical Israel] go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them" (NKJV, emphasis mine). So while Genesis may show when the Sabbath was "made" (assuming God's seventh-day rest is called a "Sabbath"), it doesn't show when it was "given." When we go to this passage in Ezekiel, we're told when the Sabbath was given (after Egypt), to whom it was given (Israel), and why it was given⁠—to be a "sign" showing that God "sanctifies them" (i.e., sets them apart). This passage makes clear that the Sabbath was given during Israel, for Israel, and only for Israel (i.e., to set them apart). And again, how can you "give" something to someone if they already have it? This shows Israel didn't have the Sabbath before Moses, and it suggests that the first interpretation of God's seventh-day rest is correct, that it was a sign specifically for the Jews.

But the weekly Sabbath of the Jews does seem to point to a rest that remains. Just as the Passover symbolizes "Christ, our Passover," who "was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7, NKJV), likewise the Sabbath symbolizes a rest (Hebrews 4:9-11). We shouldn't use either of these symbols to judge others, however, as they are simply a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:16-17). May we all strive to take part in the rest of Hebrews 4!

Sincerely,
Kilk
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I'll start out replying to the fourth point. If Isaiah 66:23 proves we must continue to keep the Sabbath eternally since the verse mentions the Sabbath, then Isaiah 66:23 also proves we must keep the New Moon eternally since the verse mentions the New Moon.
Hi Kilk, nice to see you again. I know your post here is to someone else but I have a moment so will make some comments from the scriptures that are worth considering although much of what your presenting here I guess has already been addressed already throughout this thread in some detail through the scriptures already so I will not bother commenting on things already addressed with you in past discussions. Let's get started. According to the scriptures the new Moons are simply to help determine the times of the seasons throughout the year. We need to consider a number of things here already proven through the scriptures before looking at the "new moons" in Isaiah 66:22-23 and discuss why the Sabbath is eternal so let's start here.
  • 1. God tells us that His Sabbath that he made for all mankind was made on “the seventh day” of the creation week” (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3)
  • 2. There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation given to mankind because there was no sin when God made the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week for all makind (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3).
  • 3. The name “Israel” was only a name given by God to all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods’ Word says given to Jacob and His children who were outside of the old and new covenants as shown in the scritures earlier (Genesis 32:27-28; more scripture here). So Gods Israel according to the scriptures are simply all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says irrespective of covenants. The covenants only point out who God’s people are at any given point in time.
So with the above scripture points already established in earlier discussions throughout this thread let’s consider the Sabbath being kept for all of eternity? The Sabbath has it’s origins in the creation week where God rested on the “seventh day” of creation because he had finished it in the previous six days. According to the scriptures on the “seventh day” God rested from all His work and made “the seventh day” as a holy day of rest for all mankind as shown in Mark 2:27 and Genesis 2:1-3. So God linked the “seventh day” into the 7 day continuous weekly cycle as a holy day of rest for all mankind as a “memorial” of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth, mankind and all things in them.

Continuing on we find that God’s people are all those who believe and follow God’s Word as shown in the beginning through Adam and Eve, their descendants, Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc (Genesis 26:5). Latter God gave the name "Israel" to His people that believed and followed His Word outside of the Mosiac covenant as shown in (Genesis 32:27-28). Point 3 of course is that the name “Israel” is only a name given by God irrespective of covenants to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says. Let’s continue. Not only is “Gods Sabbath” from the “seventh day” of the creation week on a continuous never ending weekly cycle meaning it never ends, God made it an “everlastingsign and covenant to his people he names "Israel" (Exodus 31:16-17). So not only is the sabbath mage on a never ending continuous weekly “every seventh day” cycle, God made the Sabbath as an everlasting, eternal covenant with His people he named “Israsel” given as a name to all of God’s people who believe and follow His Word.

This then leads us into the third evidence that the Sabbath is eternal in Isaiah 66:22-23 that says that “[22], For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So according to the scriptures, Gods’ creation Sabbath is eternal because the scripture says…
  • 1. The Sabbath was made for mankind and linked into the creation week on a never ending continuous weekly cycle that is simply every “seventh day” of the week that God blessed and made a holy day.
  • 2. God has given His Sabbath to all those who believe and follow His Word that he names “Israel” which is a name given by God outside of any covenant as an everlasting and eternal covenant between God and His people forever.
  • 3. Isaiah 66:22-23 proves point 1 and 2 that the Sabbath will be continued to be kept as a holy day of rest to worship God forever in the new heavens and the new earth. Of course you might want to consider of the Sabbath was abolished why is it being continued in the new heavens and new earth. All of the above evidence from the scriptures are all in agreement that the Sabbath of creation is eternal according to the scriptures.
Now in regards to your question and inclusion of “new moons”? I think this is simple. We just need to read the scriptures and believe them. Firstly if God says that on the new heavens and the new earth from one new moon to the next and from one Sabbath day to the next shall all flesh come to worship before God then we should believe what the scriptures says. It is really that simple.

Everything else in your post here has already been addressed with a detailed scripture response throughout this thread that I have not seen you address so I do not feel the need to respond to something I have already responded to in your thread already simply to get a non-response or having my posts and scriptures shared with you ignored.

Anyhow take Care.
 
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