Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Lazarus Short

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Time for another excerpt from my book, mostly quotes from the KJV.

A Look Back at the Good News

I kept seeing, as I studied Gospel after Gospel, Jesus’ statements concerning why He was there in that time and place. I decided to collect them all, and see what they add up to.



Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

Matthew 9:13 – “…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Matthew 10:34-35 – “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.”


Matthew 15:24 – “…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”



Matthew 18:11 – “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”



Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”



Mark 1:38 – “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”



Mark 2:17 – “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



Luke 4:18-19 – “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,



TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”



Luke 4:43 – “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”



Luke 5:31-32 – “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”



Luke 9:56 – “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”



Luke 12:49 – “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?”



Luke 12:51 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”



Luke 19:10 – “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”



Luke 24:26 – “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?”



Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”







John 3:14-17 – “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”



John 4:34 – “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”



John 5:30 – “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”



John 5:43 – “I am come in my Father’s name…”



John 6:38-40 – “For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”



John 6:48,51 – “I am that bread of life…if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”



John 7:28-29 – “…I am not come of myself…for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”



John 9:39 – “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.”



John 10:10 – “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”

John 12:27 – “Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.”



John 12:46 – “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”



John 15:22 – “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”



John 18:37 – “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”



Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
 
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Der Alte

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Time for another excerpt from my book, mostly quotes from the KJV.
A Look Back at the Good News
I kept seeing, as I studied Gospel after Gospel, Jesus’ statements concerning why He was there in that time and place. I decided to collect them all, and see what they add up to.
* * *
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scriptures out-of-context. Every heterodox religious group out there does it.
 
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God bless @hedrick for sticking in there and trying keep the nuance alive!

Y'all this is the best thread because it goes nowhere. And, if the sorry doctrine of ECT can be argued for infinity, life is good. Keep it going!! :)
 
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Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.

The book you've written sounds really good.

Jesus was very clear that He came to save us, not to condemn us. He taught that God is our loving Father, not cruel, angry and distant. This was a new perception of God that corrected the popular view of God in pagan thought and it's important that we understand it.

If God is a loving father, then ask yourself whether any loving father would send their child to a torture chamber for eternity. How is that loving in any way? Any loving parent would tell you that they would prefer to die or suffer themselves rather than allow their child to suffer. They would do everything in their power to rescued them. And that is exactly what God does. He chose to suffer and die in order to rescue us from suffering and dying. As our loving father, He saw us as we were lost in our sin, and rescued us.

If anyone is ever afraid about what God will do about hell, think What would a loving father do? and use that as your guide to God's intent.
 
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It's like a long party where no one shows any sign of leaving!

It's the proverbial train wreck that just keeps on giving. It's like an old friend that is always here, this thread, and I would be sad to see him ever die, at this point. But, if he does die, we will remember forever. ;)
 
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The book you've written sounds really good.
Jesus was very clear that He came to save us, not to condemn us. He taught that God is our loving Father, not cruel, angry and distant. This was a new perception of God that corrected the popular view of God in pagan thought and it's important that we understand it.
If God is a loving father, then ask yourself whether any loving father would send their child to a torture chamber for eternity. How is that loving in any way? Any loving parent would tell you that they would prefer to die or suffer themselves rather than allow their child to suffer. They would do everything in their power to rescued them. And that is exactly what God does. He chose to suffer and die in order to rescue us from suffering and dying. As our loving father, He saw us as we were lost in our sin, and rescued us.
If anyone is ever afraid about what God will do about hell, think What would a loving father do? and use that as your guide to God's intent
.
Daddy's home.
Genesis 7:21-23
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 20:16-17
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:​
 
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Ceallaigh

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If you take what I suggested, Paul thinks there won’t be any by the End, or at least they’ll be repentant. (He can hardly be saying that you have to be perfect to be saved.) I still think that interpretation is questionable, but it’s not impossible.

I believe he is saying you have to be perfect to enter heaven. But he could just as easily say no one blind, paralyzed, maimed, insane, ill etc will enter heaven. That's where cleansing and transformation comes in.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Genesis 7:21-23
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 20:16-17
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:​

God did those things knowing that He would resurrect them later. What's not to like?

As for your comments on the quotes of Jesus' statements about His purpose for being here...well my friend, what He said IS the context. What can outside context add or take away from the words of Jesus? Again, what's not to like?
 
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Genesis 7:21-23
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Deuteronomy 7:1-2

1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 20:16-17
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:​

This is interesting. It seems that some of the polluted Nephilim bloodline survived the flood somehow through Canaan, and God wanted to stamp it out.
 
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Saint Steven

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A lot.of people think they have to accept that ECT just because they don't believe they can be a Christian without accepting it. But they try not to think about it too closely or allow it to affect them in any way. It's just an unexamined doctrine.
Thanks for your awesome post.

This bit reminded me of what the Vietnam era soldiers used to tell themselves in regard to the atrocities they saw all around them. "That don't mean a thing." (a survival tool in the short term) Only to return home with PTSD. (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) What happens when you stuff it.

I imagine there is some level of PTSD caused by ECT.
 
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Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
There it is in a nut shell.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus was very clear that He came to save us, not to condemn us. He taught that God is our loving Father, not cruel, angry and distant. This was a new perception of God that corrected the popular view of God in pagan thought and it's important that we understand it.
That's a great point.

I don't recall any pagan god that was described as loving toward humankind. Correct me if I am wrong. (anyone)
 
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It's like a long party where no one shows any sign of leaving!
As long as there's cold beer... I'm not going anywhere. - lol
 
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That's a great point.

I don't recall any pagan god that was described as loving toward humankind. Correct me if I am wrong. (anyone)

Aphrodite/ Venus? Eros? Lol.
 
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Hmm

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This bit reminded me of what the Vietnam era soldiers used to tell themselves in regard to the atrocities they saw all around them. "That don't mean a thing." (a survival tool in the short term) Only to return home with PTSD. (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) What happens when you stuff it.

I imagine there is some level of PTSD caused by ECT.

Good analogy. Nothing can conceivably be worse than ECT so a great deal of fear is involved. Some people, like the Pharisees of old, may be 100% confident that they are going to heaven but I suspect most people aren't and worry whether they are good enough.

But the Good News is that we can be free from legalism and fear. Because God wants our motivation to be grounded in love, not fear.

He's promised us that nothing can separate us from His Love and told us in 1 John 4:18 that His perfect love casts out fear because fear involves the threat of punishment.

The Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness, kindness, generosity, gentleness, and self-control. This because this is the very nature of God. So we can be freed from the paralysing fear of ECT if that is how we are experiencing it - for myself, I experience it as incoherent nonsense. Freed from fear by His perfect love.
 
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Good analogy. Nothing can conceivably be worse than ECT so a great deal of fear is involved. Some people, like the Pharisees of old, may be 100% confident that they are going to heaven but I suspect most people aren't and worry whether they are good enough.

Historically ECT has bred nothing but corruption of faith and morals. Look at the RCC, who developed the commercial practice of selling indulgences while commissioning ever-more lurid depictions of the torments of hell for consumption by the laity.

God had to raise up the likes of Savonarola and Luther to address it. Pity it was too useful a doctrine to the powers and principalities to let go with the reformation. And here we are still, struggling to overcome man's carnal image of God.
 
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And here we are still, struggling to overcome man's carnal image of God.

Yes, it's amazing that we're still struggling with the same issue that Christians were in the Middle Ages and long before. The church, on the whole, is offering an antidote to the poison of ECT, but Christian Universalism is saying don't swallow the poison in the first place.
 
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The church, on the whole, is offering an antidote to the poison of ECT, but Christian Universalism is saying don't swallow the poison in the first place.

What antidote is the church offering? It's like that absurdist concept of pataphysics, the science of imaginary solutions (which is ubiquitous in the world today). These churches seem to be leading folks to a Matt 7:23 scenario.
 
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