There is a gap between that of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27.

Hammster

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Nope, not at the time they wrote. At the time He spoke, yes, but not by the time they wrote.

So in keeping with the faithfulness of the Bible's recording of history, they wrote what was said, and when it was said. The Bible tells it like it is. That's why you see apostles getting mad at other apostles whose mother petitioned the Lord to have her sons in the most prominent positions in His Kingdom, over the others. That's why ten days before the Day of Pentecost, the disciples asked the Lord a question which caused him to correct the question and remind them of what He told them around 42 days earlier:

Acts 1
6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

On what biblical passages do you base the claim that the Lord returned in the first century and that all the above had already been fulfilled when He returned?
I never claimed that He returned in the first century.
 
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DavidPT

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Unless what someone else posted in this thread proves true:

The gathering of the armies against Jerusalem described in Luke 21:2-23 is till coming.

(Or will happen again).

But if we assume such things we have to go find O.T passages such as Zechariah chapters 12-14 (which are all and the same prophecy, prophesying the day the armies of all nations gather against Jerusalem).

But one of the Amills here long ago gave me a list of parallels between Zechariah 14 and the NHNE.

So, this is why I prefer not to assume anything, when no one really knows - but what you said in the above post about Luke 21:24 being key is very interesting. More to think about :help:


Why can't what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 be meaning what some of Zechariah 14 is involving?

Speaking of Zechariah 14, awhile back while Googling I came across the following article written be an Amil. Much of it I actually tended to already agree with since some of it fit with how I interpret some of these things myself. If only other Amils around here reasoned some of these things like that Amil is, I might not be getting into as many disputes with them about some of these things. I will provide a link to the article in the event you're interested in at least checking out what he has to say,. The article involves around 8 pages but easy and fast pages to read since they are not overly lengthy, well except for maybe page 1. The links to the next pages are at the very bottom of the page.

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8) - Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary
 
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Zao is life

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I never claimed that He returned in the first century.
OK. I stand corrected then. But you claimed or at least implied that He has already returned, in another century (and not bodily), and without any resurrection of the dead of those who have died in Christ occurring.

Or at least that is the impression you were giving me about what you were saying.
 
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Zao is life

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Why can't what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 be meaning what some of Zechariah 14 is involving?

Speaking of Zechariah 14, awhile back while Googling I came across the following article written be an Amil. Much of it I actually tended to already agree with since some of it fit with how I interpret some of these things myself. If only other Amils around here reasoned some of these things like that Amil is, I might not be getting into as many disputes with them about some of these things. I will provide a link to the article in the event you're interested in at least checking out what he has to say,. The article involves around 8 pages but easy and fast pages to read since they are not overly lengthy.

An Amillennial Interpretation of Zechariah 14 (1 of 8) - Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary
Thanks. I definitely will read it. Though I am very familiar with the passages, I have formed no conclusions regarding Zechariah chapters 12-14.
 
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parousia70

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I'm talking about the possibility of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies again at the close of the Age.
But it already took place once.
And the followers of Jesus who saw it, fled just as their master instructed them to do.
It was FULL-filled.

Are you waiting for another Virgin Birth? Why Not?
How about another Crucifixion?
Was Calvary a mere type of some future, greater, more fulfilling sacrifice for Sin?
Why Not?
Why are you waiting for another distruction of Jerusalem, but not another virgin birth?

What scriptural teaching prevents one from affixing this "dual fulfillment" idea upon EVERY passage? And what teaching prevents us from anticipating multiple fulfillments beyond merely 2?

Where does the Bible teach us to determine which prophecies have this "Dual Fulfillment' and which do not? and who does the Bible say is qualified to proclaim when one particular prophecy has this dual fulfillment while another does not?

Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies", and Jesus places further emphasis on the fact that such would be the antitype fulfillment when He instructs them that those would be "the days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"

While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.
Scripture simply does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)
 
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parousia70

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Acts 1
6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

On what biblical passages do you base the claim that the Lord returned in the first century and that all the above had already been fulfilled when He returned?


The Biblical Basis I have is that Paul testified, unambigously, that it had:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Now, either you are correct, that it didn't happen in the 1st century, or Paul is correct that it did.

My Money is on Paul.
 
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parousia70

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Or do you mean something like the return of Christ that occurred in the first century but which the apostles all failed to mention in their epistles in plain and unambiguous language while they repeatedly wrote about the return of the Lord as a future event, in such a way as to strongly imply that His return was still a future event?

It was still future when they Wrote.
John was the only one who wrote that the Tribulation was presently underway at the time of His writing.

Yet, while all the apostles wrote of it as a yet future to them event, they, in over 100 passages, unambiguously testified it was imminenet, near, about to take place, in a very very little while, without delay, must shortly come to pass, before all of them had died, before that generation had passed.

Over 100 Passages.

Can you identify even one other Biblical doctrine repeated in over 100 NT passages that you likewise take to mean the exact opposite of what the passages say?

How about Grace?
There are 125 NT verses about Grace.
Do they likewise mean the opposite of what they say?

Faith?
304 NT passages about faith.
Perhaps they also mean the opposite of what they say?

Salvation?
166 passages total in scripture about salvation.
Perhaps they too should be understood to be opposite of what they say?

Or, is the Doctrine of Imminency the only one we shoud take to mean the exact opposite of what 100+ scriptural passages testify?
 
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DavidPT

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But it already took place once.
And the followers of Jesus who saw it, fled just as their master instructed them to do.
It was FULL-filled.

What should we make of Zechariah 14:2 then? Doesn't that verse indicate Jerusalem gets surrounded? That couldn't possibly be involving 70 AD, and here are several valid reasons why. The Romans are the attackers. The unbelieving Jews are the victims. Zechariah 14 indicates that the LORD then goes out to fight on behalf of the victims by fighting against it's attackers.

This leads to total nonsense if we apply this to the first century and 70 AD. This would mean that the Lord went to war with the Romans on behalf of defending the victims of the Romans, the unbelieving Jews in this case. Where does history record anything like that at the time? If there was this alleged war between God and the Romans, who won this war? God or the Romans? If it was the Romans, I guess that means the Romans were more powerful than God if they managed to win that alledged war. But if there was no such war like this, and obviously there wasn't, how is it then reasonable to apply any of this to the first century to begin with?
 
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parousia70

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What should we make of Zechariah 14:2 then?

Zech 14:8 was Fulfilled "in that day" in the Giving of the HS @ Pentecost per John the Apostle and Jesus Christ: John 7:38

We are not still waiting for the "That Day" of Zecharah 14 to come.

If Zech 14:8 was fulfilled in the first century, as Jesus and John testified it was, then Zechariah 14:2 can not be future to us.

Doesn't that verse indicate Jerusalem gets surrounded?
Yes.
That couldn't possibly be involving 70 AD, and here are several valid reasons why. The Romans are the attackers.

Rather, Rome Led a Multi National, Multi ethnic coalition against Israel. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops. It was All Nations that attacked.
 
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Zao is life

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The Biblical Basis I have is that Paul testified, unambigously, that it had:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Now, either you are correct, that it didn't happen in the 1st century, or Paul is correct that it did.

My Money is on Paul.
.. hope laid up for you.. in heaven
What a great, baseless leap you make from the verses you quoted above to the notion that the above verses mean that Christ has already returned.

And what a great and baseless leap you make from the verses you quote above to using any of them to assert that what Paul was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2 was not the return of Jesus at a time which lay in the future in Paul's day.

Preterism makes quite a few of these great and baseless leaps. It's like trying to reach the I.S.S using springs tied under your feet.
 
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Hammster

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OK. I stand corrected then. But you claimed or at least implied that He has already returned, in another century (and not bodily), and without any resurrection of the dead of those who have died in Christ occurring.

Or at least that is the impression you were giving me about what you were saying.
My claim is that He came on the clouds in that generation. And I referenced Isaiah 19 if anyone wanted to see what He meant.
 
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DavidPT

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Zech 14:8 was Fulfilled "in that day" in the Giving of the HS @ Pentecost per John the Apostle and Jesus Christ: John 7:38

We are not still waiting for the "That Day" of Zecharah 14 to come.

If Zech 14:8 was fulfilled in the first century, as Jesus and John testified it was, then Zechariah 14:2 can not be future to us.
.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. )


If we use John 7:38-39 to interpret Zechariah 14:8 this would indicate that the living waters recorded in the latter is meaning the Spirit. In Zechariah 14:8 it mentions half of them twice, obviously meaning the living waters. That means if living waters are meaning the Spirit, that verse is basically saying this---And it shall be in that day, that the Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

As if there are 2 halves of the Spirit, thus rendering this verse nonsensical if Spirit is meant by living waters. If you disagree that it renders it nonsensical, then explain why it doesn't.


Rather, Rome Led a Multi National, Multi ethnic coalition against Israel. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops. It was All Nations that attacked.

Even if we go by that, which I'm not even going to try and dispute, it still doesn't match with the events involving 70 AD since the Lord in no way defended the victims at the time, the unbelieving Jews, by fighting on their behalf.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How was that comforting for them?

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
What kind of question is this? A better question is how would telling them that they would one day always be with the Lord NOT comfort them, regardless of when that would occur?
 
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Zao is life

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My claim is that He came on the clouds in that generation. And I referenced Isaiah 19 if anyone wanted to see what He meant.
Preterists have taught me a lot. They've taught me to go searching the scriptures for metaphor (which I had noticed myself long ago but somehow never really linked "metaphor with metaphor"), the way I've always compared scripture with scripture (maybe not realizing the importance of understanding the use of metaphor and being able to recognize metaphor when it's metaphor, hyperbole when it's hyperbole, simile when it's simile, and symbolism when it's symbolism).

But I still don't accept what you say above.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What age? The Christian age? the Church age? the New Covenant Age?

Whenever it began, we can be certain it hadn't begun, nor do the apostles have any idea it would begin, when the apostles asked Jesus "when will the end of the age be"? Manking it impssible that the apostles were asking, and Jesus was answering "when" would be the end of the Christian age.
How are you concluding that the age they were asking about hadn't begun yet? It should be obvious, in my opinion, that they were asking about the end of the age that they were currently in which Jesus called "this age".

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Why would anyone think that the disciples were asking about the end of any age except for "this age" that they were currently in at the time? It's clear to me that one of the questions the disciples asked in the Olivet Discourse was about His coming and the end of the age during which people get married and die and at which point the resurrection of the dead will occur. That age has not yet come since people are still getting married, people are still dying, and the resurrection of the dead has not yet occurred.


After. And they all affirmed the Law was still in effect, and that people were still in bondage to it, at the time they were writing.
No, people were foolishly trying to make the law still be in effect even though it wasn't. Read Galatians 3. It's a huge insult to suggest that the law was still in effect after the death and resurrection of Christ because it takes away from what Christ accomplished on the cross. You clearly don't understand what the tearing of the veil of the temple in two signified. Jesus rendered the Jewish temple desolate just before He died on the cross (Matt 23:37-38). But, you think that law was somehow still in effect even when the temple was rendered spiritually desolate?

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Scripture says Jesus nailed the law (the ceremonial laws in particular) to His cross. Do you not think that He established the new covenant with His blood? If you believe He did, then how is it possible that the new and old covenants were in effect at the same time? That makes no sense whatsoever. The new covenant replaced the old covenant. Immediately when it was established. You say otherwise and that means you are taking away from what Christ accomplished on the cross, which is a terrible thing to do.
 
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Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified. )


If we use John 7:38-39 to interpret Zechariah 14:8 this would indicate that the living waters recorded in the latter is meaning the Spirit. In Zechariah 14:8 it mentions half of them twice, obviously meaning the living waters. That means if living waters are meaning the Spirit, that verse is basically saying this---And it shall be in that day, that the Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

As if there are 2 halves of the Spirit, thus rendering this verse nonsensical if Spirit is meant by living waters. If you disagree that it renders it nonsensical, then explain why it doesn't.
Why are you trying to insist that figurative language should be understood in a literal sense? If it's figurative, then it doesn't have to agree with the literal logic that you're using such as saying it would then mean "there are 2 halves of the Spirit".

It could simply be figuratively referring to the gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit, going out to both the Jews (the former sea) and the Gentiles (the hinder sea). Or at least something along those lines. If it's figurative then it makes no sense to think it would then result in literally referring to the Holy Spirit being divided in half. If it's figurative, it's figurative, and there's no reason to try to make figurative text have to fall in line with literal rules of logic.

Even if we go by that, which I'm not even going to try and dispute, it still doesn't match with the events involving 70 AD since the Lord in no way defended the victims at the time, the unbelieving Jews, by fighting on their behalf.
That's true. I agree with that point.
 
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DavidPT

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What age? The Christian age? the Church age? the New Covenant Age?

Whenever it began, we can be certain it hadn't begun, nor do the apostles have any idea it would begin, when the apostles asked Jesus "when will the end of the age be"? Manking it impssible that the apostles were asking, and Jesus was answering "when" would be the end of the Christian age.


The apostles had more knowledge about some of these things than you are giving them credit for, thus you are disregarding what Jesus had already taught them in the past, such as what is recorded in Matthew 13 per the following.

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Doesn't this involve the end of the world? Is there any reason to think that the end of the world meant here is not the same end of the world meant in the Discourse? The Greek word for 'end' in verse 39 is sunteleia. It is used in only 6 passages total in the NT, that being all of the following.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end(sunteleia) of the world(aion)?

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end(sunteleia) of the world(aion). Amen.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end(sunteleia) of the world(aion); and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end(sunteleia) of this world(aion).

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end(sunteleia) of the world(aion): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end(sunteleia) of the world(aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If you try and use Hebrews 9:26 to make your case then you need to show how the verses in Matthew 13 above are involving what Hebrews 9:26 is involving. They both involve the end of the world, yet they are not involving the same events, obviously.
 
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Hammster

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Preterists have taught me a lot. They've taught me to go searching the scriptures for metaphor (which I had noticed myself long ago but somehow never really linked "metaphor with metaphor", they way I've always compared scripture with scripture (maybe not realizing the importance of understanding the use of metaphor and being able to recognize metaphor when it's metaphor, hyperbole when it's hyperbole, simile when it's simile, and symbolism when it's symbolism.

But I still don't accept what you say above.
I’d rather use scripture to interpret scripture.
 
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I’m not big on long posts, so I’ll address this first, and we will see where it goes from here. This is another example of where knowledge of the OT is helpful. Sun, moon, stars are used throughout the OT as leaders. Even in Joseph’s vision, they represented his father, mother, and brothers. So what’s being put forth is that the leadership of Israel will lose its authority. They have fallen.
That would mean the earth currently has no leaders whatsoever. John's Revelation ends with no sun, moon, nor stars.
 
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Why are you trying to insist that figurative language should be understood in a literal sense? If it's figurative, then it doesn't have to agree with the literal logic that you're using such as saying it would then mean "there are 2 halves of the Spirit".

It could simply be figuratively referring to the gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit, going out to both the Jews (the former sea) and the Gentiles (the hinder sea). Or at least something along those lines. If it's figurative then it makes no sense to think it would then result in literally referring to the Holy Spirit being divided in half. If it's figurative, it's figurative, and there's no reason to try to make figurative text have to fall in line with literal rules of logic.

Pretty much everyone agrees the former and hinder seas are meaning literal seas and what seas they are referring to. And I'm including Amils here, not just Premils. If literal seas are meant why wouldn't literal waters be meant as well? According to the book of Revelation there is going to be a lot of death involving sea creatures because of plagues during some of the trumpet and vial judgments.

Maybe you don't take any of the plagues in the literal sense, yet I tend to. I don't see the point of them if none of it involves anything literal. I'm not suggesting all of it involves literal events, though. These waters will need healed at some point unless God does away with bodies of water altogether, thus the earth only consisting of land and no more bodies of water. Revelation 21:1 says there was no more sea. Surely that couldn't be meaning in a literal sense, though.

Why then can't Zechariah 14:8 be describing a period of time when these bodies of water are healed?
 
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