There is no such thing as a "rapture" for believers!!

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Could you explain the differences between the gospels that you think are in the Bible?

And with Scriptural evidence, please.

Absolutely correct!

I asked because I am curious why he thinks there is more than 1 gospel.


Good info. Thanks.

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You're welcome, but there's more...

John Nelson Darby in the 1830's apparently got the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory from the Edward Irving church in Britain. Darby then began preaching it in his church. That theory wrongly teaches that Lord Jesus comes prior to the "great tribulation" to secretly rapture His Church, and take them to Heaven while the Jews remain on earth to go through the tribulation. And then the church reigns with Jesus from Heaven later while the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth. This was what Darby's Dispensationalist theory taught, and it's obvious that it was designed to support the false pre-trib rapture theory that he taught.

Even their label of "tribulation saints" is designed to point to Jewish converts that convert to Christ during the great tribulation, though that is nowhere written. That is simply another idea pushed to try and support their theory that the church is already in Heaven with the Jews left behind. They had to come up with some excuse, because there's plenty of Scripture that reveals Christ's elect suffering through the great tribulation.

Thus the Pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine from men shows multiple modifications over the years to try and explain away all the Scripture proofs against the theory. In Darby's day, it was called a 'secret' rapture, even though rapture scholars today claim Darby never used the word secret. Yet that is the idea Darby first taught, that those left behind would wonder what happened to them. The Hyper-Dispensationalist theory came a few years later, in the 1880s, Bullinger being probably its main proponent. For example, they began teaching that Christ's Olivet discourse is not meant for His Church, simply because that was a time prior to Apostle Paul's Epistles which Paul's Epistles are specifically for... Christ's Church. Thus they created another division to try and prop up the false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Guojing said:

Okay, in the spirit of grace, let's move on from this non-converging debate.

As long as you also agree that the gospel we preach to any unbelieving person today, will not have these same words "In thee shall all nations be blessed", I am satisfied.

We can move on from this agreement.

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Why would you want to exclude anything from scripture when preaching the gospel?
Here's what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 9: 16For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. 18What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Guojing said:

Gospel means good news.

Are you saying there is only ONE good news given by God to Man in the Bible?

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There's only ONE Jesus Christ Who died on the cross, not two. Thus there is only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Those who 'try' to argue that there's more than one Gospel show how silly their minds work, because if there were another gospel besides The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it would mean believing on someone else... other than Jesus Christ! So really, when one actually uses common sense as to what those men are saying, it shows those men simply shoot themselves in their own foot, because it's easy to understand they don't know what they are saying!

Davy said:

There's only ONE Jesus Christ Who died on the cross, not two. Thus there is only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Those who 'try' to argue that there's more than one Gospel show how silly their minds work, because if there were another gospel besides The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then it would mean believing on someone else... other than Jesus Christ! So really, when one actually uses common sense as to what those men are saying, it shows those men simply shoot themselves in their own foot, because it's easy to understand they don't know what they are saying!

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You are not addressing my point, as it is worded.

I said there is more than ONE good news given by God to Man in the Bible.

FreeGrace2 said:

The bolded words ARE NOT NOT NOT part of any gospel. Either OT or NT.

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Okay, you interpret Galatians 3:8 differently from me then. Let's move on from this.

Ed Parenteau said:

Why would you want to exclude anything from scripture when preaching the gospel?
Here's what Paul said:
1 Corinthians 9: 16For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. 18What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

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So do you ever recall telling any unbeliever you have met so far that, "in him shall all nations be blessed"?

How did he respond?

FreeGrace2 said:

Why do you think that the phrase "in Him shall all nations be blessed" is a gospel?

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That is why I said you are being obtuse, whether deliberately or not, I leave it up to you.

During Abraham's time, being barren was seen as a curse.

So if someone tells him, while he is barren, that

1. he will have descendants as numerous as the stars and the sand, and
2. that all nations will be blessed thru him,

Do you seriously have trouble understanding that Abraham would consider that as very good news for him?

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you think that the phrase "in Him shall all nations be blessed" is a gospel?

OK, I conclude that you have NO IDEA how to answer my question. So who's being obtuse here? If you think that phrase is a gospel, then you should at least be able to explain why you do.

But you won't, so you don't. That simple.


Irrelevant.


Sure. But, so what.

When believers speak of the "gospel" they aren't referring to winning the lottery. Unless you have no discernment.

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gospel means good news.

Once you understand that, your response of "Sure. But, so what." is you being obtuse.

Guojing said:

Yes I stated that the gospel of the kingdom requires works to show faith.

But I disagree with you stating our. You need to also recognize that, in Jesus first coming, he made it clear that:

1. Matthew 15:24 He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
2. Matthew 10:5-8 This gospel of the kingdom is not to be preached to gentiles.

For us, we had to wait until the fall of Israel, before we have a chance for salvation (Romans 11:11), and our gospel is the gospel of the grace of God given to the apostle Paul, which have the faith of Christ Jesus providing the necessary work on the cross (Galatians 2:16)

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But I wasn't speaking for the gentiles when I used the word "our"... didn't you know?
In fact, your use of the words "we" and "our" is for the gentiles...
The Kingdom Gospel believers follow Matthew 7:24-25, to the letter.

Matthew 24:14 cancels out your objection to the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached to the nations... since the endtimes could be now, for all we know.
And BTW, so does Matthew 28:18-20... Jesus wasn't given primacy over the whole world until He came back from Heaven. This is called the Great Commission by those who don't seem to read the text very clearly... because teaching what Jesus taught His Discipled Apostles isn't really done so much, is it? I understand that the Great Commission was given to the 11 remaining Discipled Apostles who keep the Commandments of Jesus given in the Sermon on the Mount, and to those who "believe on Jesus through their word".

Guojing said:

So do you ever recall telling any unbeliever you have met so far that, "in him shall all nations be blessed"?

How did he respond?

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I am not the example to follow, but rather Jesus Christ and His disciples are. My question really was for you to explain why you would exclude anything in scripture from the preaching of the gospel? I don't see Paul excluding anything from it and was wondering why you did.

FreeGrace2 said:

Your comments here reject the truth that Jesus taught in John 5:24, which indicates WHEN a person HAS (possesses) eternal life (which is on the basis of faith in Him) and what He taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Behavior is NEVER a factor in receiving eternal life.

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Salvation is conditional, in the Kingdom Gospel... from which you're quoting.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Matthew 5:19)

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of My hand.
akoloutheo = from a (as a particle of union) and keleuthos (a road); properly, to be in the same way with, i.e. to accompany (specially, as a disciple):--follow, reach.

John 14:21-23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me. (John 12:48-50)

Revelation 3:8-10 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Judaean, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Guojing said:

Okay, you interpret Galatians 3:8 differently from me then. Let's move on from this.

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And the Lord said to Abram, Go forth out of thy land and out of thy kindred, and out of the house of thy father, and come into the land which I will shew thee. And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed. And I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

"I will bless those that bless thee" ... some people in every tribe will bless Abram.

FreeGrace2 said:

It would be helpful to include an explanation of what these verses mean to you.

The Bible very cleary teaches that there will be just ONE resurrection (which includes living believers and generally called "the rapture") for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

It is where one places the single resurrection of the saved on the timeline of history that is important.

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Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Revelation 11:11-12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and His throne. (Isaiah 66:7-8) (Revelation 2:27)
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: sealed an hundred forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 14:1-4 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred forty-four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men: the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb
Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 1:1)
James 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. (James 1:1)

Jeremias 18:19 O Lord, thou art My strength, and mine help, and My refuge in days of evil: to thee the Gentiles shall come from the end of the earth, and shall say, How vain were the idols which our fathers procured to themselves, and there is no help in them.LXX
Esaias 60:14 And the sons of them that afflicted thee, and of them that provoked thee, shall come to thee in fear; and thou shalt be called Sion, the city of the Holy One of Israel.LXX