There is a gap between that of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27.

trophy33

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I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.
And what will you do with Paul's letter to Thessalonica?

For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.
1 Thess 5:4-6

We = I (Paul) and you (people in Thessalonica).

Where is 2,000 years in it?
 
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Zao is life

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I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Let's skip ahead to verse 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?

If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immediately followed any events in the first century.

I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.

In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.
It does not seem to me that Luke 21:20-23 parallels Matthew 24:9-31, for the following reasons:-

1. Matthew used the Greek word thlipsis in Matthew 24:9, which is the same word used in Matthew 24:21 where the reader (and Jesus' audience) are being told about the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis) that is being prophesied about by Jesus (megas thlipsis). I'm going to come back to something very important about this in a moment.

2. Luke does not use the same word to describe what he is talking about in Luke 21:20-23, where Luke records Jesus’ prophecy regarding the distress that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

3. I think it's noticeable that Matthew does not use the word "wrath" anywhere from Matthew 24:9 to Matthew 24:31, because that whole passage is joined together into one long sentence by the words "and", "therefore", "but", "for",and "then"; and if you look at the Greek words, the English translation of each Greek word which joins the entire passage into one long statement about one and the same period of tribulation, is accurate.

4. What is also noticeable is that if Matthew 24:9-31 is indeed one long statement about one and the same period of tribulation (which the text and and the Greek words used to join sentences together, certainly implies), then it cannot possibly be talking about the same thing Luke is reporting Jesus as prophesying in Luke 21:20-23.

5. Luke 21:24-28 are more difficult verses (for me), because verse 24 is so similar to Revelation 11:1-2 and Revelation 13:10:

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled.

Revelation 11
1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

In Revelation 13 we have the words,

9 If any man has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed by a sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The above is hardly "the patience and faith" of the unbelieving Jews who were led away captive in 70 A.D, so comparing the above verses in the Revelation with Luke 21:24, I find it difficult to assume that Luke 21:24 is talking about what happened to the Jews immediately following the events of A.D 70, especially when I consider this alongside the fact that Luke also said the following:

Luke 21
8 And He said, Take heed that you are not deceived, for many shall come in My name, saying, I AM! Also, The time has come! Do not go after them.
9 But when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified, for all these things must first occur, but the end is not at once.
10 And He said to them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11 And great earthquakes shall be in different places, and famines and plagues. And there shall be terrors and great signs from Heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall return to you for a testimony.
14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand what you shall answer.
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And you shall be betrayed also by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends. And they will cause some of you to be put to death.
17 And you shall be hated by all for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish.
19 By your patience you will gain your souls.

MARKAN SANDWICH IN LUKE'S GOSPEL TOO?

Without assuming anything, I believe it's possible that Luke opens with recording what Jesus said about the close of the Age, interrupts the discourse with what will happen with THAT Jerusalem that still existed as part of the kingdom of Judea when Jesus was prophesying, and then closes with what he started off with.

Still, I don't assume anything because Luke chapter 21:5-28 is a difficult passage to interpret CORRECTLY (though many, many Christians believe they have it all worked out, and in its proper historical or future setting).
 
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Zao is life

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And what will you do with Paul's letter to Thessalonica?

For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.
1 Thess 5:4-6

We = I (Paul) and you (people in Thessalonica).

Where is 2,000 years in it?
Empty arguments. No substance. The literature of 1 Thessalonians 4 which says the Lord will descend from heaven means Paul was speaking about something which lay in the future.

You just don't like Greek or English when it doesn't agree with what you believe.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not (Greek: phthánō) prevent them which are asleep.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05348
φθάνω phthánō, fthan'-o
apparently a primary verb;
to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent.
 
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parousia70

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But I am still convinced that the 2nd coming in the end of this age is recorded in the Discourse, and that the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, are referring to that coming.

Yet you have the apostles asking about the end of and age that hadn't even begun, nor had they any idea would begin or was even coming, when they asked about it's end.

Q: In what age was Jesus born?

A: The Old Testament Law Age:
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law [of Moses]" (Gal 4:4)

Q: At what point in that Old Testament age did Jesus appear, suffer, and die on the Cross?

A: "In these last days has spoken to us in His Son" (Hebrews 1:2). "But now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb 9:26). "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you" (1 Peter 1:20).

Q: What age were the apostles in at the time they asked Jesus, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

A: as demonstrated above, They were in the Old Testament Age. Therefore their statement logically spoke of the signs accompanying the end of that Age.

There is no way, contextually, that the apostles were asking, and Jesus was answering, about the end of an age tha hadn't even begun, nor did the apostles have any idea WOULD begin, when they asked about "the end of the age".

They were clearly asking, and Jesus was clearly answering, about the end of the age they were born into and living in, when they asked about it's end.

The text gives us no other option.
 
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DavidPT

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I am proposing avoiding attempts to make the pieces fit before all the pieces are lined up.


In some cases it might be too late by then. Why would one not want to at least try and do that in advance? Either it will turn out they were right all along or that they were way off. I see that you are arguing that some prophecies involving Christ weren't understood until after they were fulfilled first. I have no dispute with that, but is that enough reason to simply wait until further unfilled prophecies are fulfilled first?

I'm basically just trying to determine a chronological chain of events. That doesn't mean I have to understand in detail what every event might look like as it is being fulfilled. It just means this happens first, followed by that next, so on and so on.

As to the AOD recorded in Matthew 24:15. I don't know what that is going to look like when it is initially fulfilled, but I'm not expecting it to involve a literal temple in Jerusalem. One of the signs indicating we have entered that period is what Matthew 24:21 records---For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


I don't see us being quite there yet nor do I think a time in the past explains what is recorded in verse 21 either. Daniel 12 records the same event, which is then followed by a resurrection of the dead. This alone tells us this is still future not past, yet some would have us believe, and not just Preterists, that Matthew 24:21 involved the first century and 70 AD, not something in the end of this age instead, thus totally contradicting what Daniel 12:1-2 records.
 
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trophy33

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Empty arguments. No substance. The literature of 1 Thessalonians 4 which says the Lord will descend from heaven means Paul was speaking about something which lay in the future.

You just don't like Greek or English when it doesn't agree with what you believe.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not (Greek: phthánō) prevent them which are asleep.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05348
φθάνω phthánō, fthan'-o
apparently a primary verb;
to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by extension, to have arrived at:--(already) attain, come, prevent.
Sure, it was still future in the time of the writing of the letter.

But you completely missed the point of the post - the future was not distant, but included Paul and the people reading his letter being still alive.
 
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Zao is life

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Sure, it was still future in the time of the writing of the letter.

But you completely missed the point of the post - the future was not distant, but included Paul and people reading the letter.
I know (he said, sarcastically): In accordance with your "correct" division of the Word of truth, the dead in Christ rose when Christ descended, and then those who were in Christ and were still alive saw it all happening, and then they too were caught up together with those who had risen from the dead, and they were all caught up together, and met Jesus in the air.
 
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trophy33

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I know (he said, sarcastically): In accordance with your "correct" division of the Word of truth, the dead in Christ rose when Christ descended, and then those who were in Christ and were still alive saw it all happening, and then they too were caught up together with those who had risen from the dead, and they were all caught up together, and met Jesus in the air.
I see no relevant reaction to my post, here.

Again, the point of my post is that Paul did not expect any 2,000 years gap.
 
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DavidPT

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And what will you do with Paul's letter to Thessalonica?

For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.
1 Thess 5:4-6

We = I (Paul) and you (people in Thessalonica).

Where is 2,000 years in it?


What some ppl apparently don't seem to realize, the church is one big family, so to speak. Which means, though Paul used pronouns which give the impression he was only meaning them at the time, this is not necessarily the case. All I see him doing here is teaching them about how it's going to play out over all in the end, where Paul continues to teach this to future generations as well who are reading his writings after he himself is long gone. The way some of you apparently reason some of these things, Paul was only capable of teaching those alive at the time, and not anyone in future generations as well.
 
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Zao is life

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I see no relevant reaction to my post, here.

Again, the point of my post is that Paul did not expect any 2,000 years gap.
No, not at all. How could Paul have known how long the gap would be? Do you? Does anyone? Moot argument
 
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trophy33

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What some ppl apparently don't seem to realize, the church is one big family, so to speak. Which means, though Paul used pronouns which give the impression he was only meaning them at the time, this is not necessarily the case.
I recommend to read the text in wider context and you will see the problem: Some Thessalonians were worried about their dead relatives who died before the coming.

Paul could say "we will all die, because He will return thousands years after us". But he did not. Its not indicated anywhere in the text, only the opposite - the expectation of it happening in their lifes. Therefore I do not think your explanation fits the text.

All I see him doing here is teaching them about how it's going to play out over all in the end
Actually, no. Paul was comforting them. Its said in the text.
 
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trophy33

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Zao is life

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What some ppl apparently don't seem to realize, the church is one big family, so to speak. Which means, though Paul used pronouns which give the impression he was only meaning them at the time, this is not necessarily the case. All I see him doing here is teaching them about how it's going to play out over all in the end, where Paul continues to teach this to future generations as well who are reading his writings after he himself is long gone. The way some of you apparently reason some of these things, Paul was only capable of teaching those alive at the time, and not anyone in future generations as well.
Copy @myst33 When Paul was writing, he may have and probably did expect the Lord's return a lot sooner than after a 2,000 gap, but he had no idea how long the gap would be, so of course he was writing to the people whom he knew and who were alive in his day.

BUT Paul still speaks today - he is telling us what he told them, whoever he was writing to. The same goes for all the apostles. And Jesus gave His Revelation, introducing it like this:

Revelation 1
1 A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John.

First seven letters to seven churches which existed at the time (but were probably by no means the only churches in existence), and what Jesus said to one, He says to all.

Likewise what the apostles wrote to one, they wrote to all.

We are still being taught by a Man named Jesus and His 12 apostles 2,000 later, every time we open their writings and read them.
 
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Zao is life

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Its called "inspiration".

I would appreciate your better behavior and writing to the point without such comments.
Like you when you answered the thread I started?

OK you are right. My behavior should be better than yours. No point in meeting you on your own level.
 
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Zao is life

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Yet you have the apostles asking about the end of and age that hadn't even begun
OK, so can you tell us then

1. when did the Age begin?
2. Did the Day of Pentecost signify something, or nothing?
3. When did the apostles write, and when did Paul write? Was it before or after the Day of Pentecost?
 
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