David Bentley Hart on Hell

JulieB67

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At some point you may be ready for the next step. Ultimate Redemption.
Jesus is the Savior of the world. Unless you think he failed his mission.

He didn't fail. But we do. Many sadly will simply not follow him or repent. He is the Savior to the entire world "if" they will have him. Again many won't, but it's there for the taking, so no, he didn't fail.

The context is interesting.
Jesus begins by saying "be afraid" but ends by saying "don't be afraid".

Matt 10:28-31 NIV
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Actually Christ starts and ends the same way keeping it in context with - don't be afraid of those that can kill us physically. ( Only God can destroy our soul)

He starts "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body...and ends with "So don't be afraid.."
 
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JulieB67

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Should we be afraid of the afterlife then?

For people that don't care about Christ/or repentance certainly because after judgement day they won't have one. And most especially those that did once believe and turn their backs on him, fall into apostasy never finding repentance again. But we know many don't believe or could care less, etc.

But as for this verse, I think it means what it basically states, that we should fear the possiblity of losing one's soul but not fear what can happen while we're in our physical bodies. Christ tells us when talking about the end times, "in your patience, possess ye your souls" It's that important.

I've already read many posts on universalism and again like in my posts to Der Alte, the common theme of the wicked/unrepenant, etc is destruction/perishing. I don't believe that verses like "tried by fire" etc point to someone being thrown into the LOF and coming back out. I think those verses are analogies that our ill gotten gains or works can easily be burnt up (wood, stubble, etc) but the person can still be saved. God is the true heart knower.
But I don't think this has to do with anyone being put into the LOF and coming back out. I don't think God wants us to find repentance that way. You asked me if I thought Christ had failed his mission because I believe many will perish. But that would be complete failure if those souls didn't need him for salvation but only needed to be thrown into the LOF for some refining. That puts the power of salvation on the LOF instead of him. I believe it destroys, not give life.
I believe perish means to "destroy fully". And I believe the second death is the exactly that which fits Matthew 10:28.
 
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Der Alte

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This is the only thing I really wanted to respond to earlier but didn't because I couldn't quite believe that you wrote this. No offense even though you accused me of herectics, but do we have to have it spelled out for us? You admitted yourself that the LOF is called the second death but also needed to be further told that someone dies when thrown in. That doesn't even make sense. Being told it's the second death means exactly that, that you die when thrown in. This is the second death and it goes with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28. But according to some that doesn't mean that God will destroy the soul but that he could. Well, in Revelation he tells us specifically that's what will happen.. . .
Please read my posts again. I have NEVER used the word "heretic" in this forum.
Please show me were "anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies." Had you actually read and comprehended my post, you might have read this but evidently you didn't. It appears you only pulled out something to argue about. From my post,
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2​
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.​
 
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I believe it destroys, not give life.

What is the last enemy to be destroyed?
And after that, what remains?
And Jesus' mission is to raise the who?
And our God is the god of the who?
And God's ministers are flames of what?

If one burning coal from the divine brazier is sufficient to cleanse the sin from the lips of the prophet, how much more full immersion in a molten lake of pure theion for the reprobate?

I hope the answers guide you in the right direction.
 
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Ceallaigh

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For people that don't care about Christ/or repentance certainly because after judgement day they won't have one. And most especially those that did once believe and turn their backs on him, fall into apostasy never finding repentance again. But we know many don't believe or could care less, etc.

But as for this verse, I think it means what it basically states, that we should fear the possiblity of losing one's soul but not fear what can happen while we're in our physical bodies. Christ tells us when talking about the end times, "in your patience, possess ye your souls" It's that important.

I've already read many posts on universalism and again like in my posts to Der Alte, the common theme of the wicked/unrepenant, etc is destruction/perishing. I don't believe that verses like "tried by fire" etc point to someone being thrown into the LOF and coming back out. I think those verses are analogies that our ill gotten gains or works can easily be burnt up (wood, stubble, etc) but the person can still be saved. God is the true heart knower.
But I don't think this has to do with anyone being put into the LOF and coming back out. I don't think God wants us to find repentance that way. You asked me if I thought Christ had failed his mission because I believe many will perish. But that would be complete failure if those souls didn't need him for salvation but only needed to be thrown into the LOF for some refining. That puts the power of salvation on the LOF instead of him. I believe it destroys, not give life.
I believe perish means to "destroy fully". And I believe the second death is the exactly that which fits Matthew 10:28.
I'll disagree with you on one point. I think that salvation is only by and through the cross and nothing but the cross, regardless of how many are saved by it. Whether it's only one person, or just a handful, or many, or most, or all.
 
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JulieB67

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I think that salvation is only by and through the cross and nothing but the cross, regardless of how many are saved by it
I'm not sure what point you're disagreeing with. I agree that salvation only comes through the cross as well.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I'm not sure what point you're disagreeing with. I agree that salvation only comes through the cross as well.

Where you said, "But that would be complete failure if those souls didn't need him for salvation but only needed to be thrown into the LOF for some refining. That puts the power of salvation on the LOF instead of him".

While the Holy Spirit (who happens to be likened to fire) intercedes for us and refines us, salvation only comes through the cross. So even if souls are refined in the LOF, their salvation still would not occur without the cross.
 
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JulieB67

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What is the last enemy to be destroyed?
And after that, what remains?
And Jesus' mission is to raise the who?
And our God is the god of the who?
And God's ministers are flames of what?


I hope the answers guide you in the right direction.

God is the God of the living but if we aren't in Christ, we are already spiritually dead to him. And yes, the last enemy is death. Christ defeated that. That means as soon as someone dies, they are quickened in the spirit, made alive. But after judgement day comes the LOF and the "second" death. The death of the soul. That's final or it wouldn't be called the"second" death. After this then hell and death are both destroyed in the LOF and we will have a new heaven and earth. The former will be passed away. And there will be no more death at this point.

And if you say someone comes out of the LOF, you are taking the power away from what the second death means.

If one burning coal from the divine brazier is sufficient to cleanse the sin from the lips of the prophet, how much more full immersion in a molten lake of pure theion for the reprobate?

Because you are taking Christ out of the equation and putting the emphasis on the LOF for salvation/repentance

How is that true repentance? If that's all our Father needs, then this world age didn't even need to come into existence. Christ wouldn't have had to die on the cross and so on.

And to suggest that a coal coming from the altar "prepared for our Heavenly Father" is in some way the same thing as the LOF that's "prepared" for Satan and his angels" is kind of disturbing.

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

You are widening this gate/path so all can find it through the LOF if many don't find true repentance through Christ. That's not biblical.

And no offense to anyone but I have left many false doctrines that I once believed when I found out they weren't biblical upon study. I even left churches because for the most part you will only be fed milk (salvation) issues and nothing more. There will be just a few verses followed by a man's written sermon having nothing to do with the meat of God's word. But back to the point at hand on universalism, I don't see it, honestly when I take the bible as a whole, not losing context.
 
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Der Alte

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* * * If one burning coal from the divine brazier is sufficient to cleanse the sin from the lips of the prophet, how much more full immersion in a molten lake of pure theion for the reprobate?
I hope the answers guide you in the right direction.
And when the reprobates, thieves, robbers, murderers, etc. are taken out of the burning coal of the divine brazier they will somehow instantly become obedient lovers of God and Jesus the same way criminals who are punished in prisons in this life instantly become law abiding citizens. Anybody interested in some ocean property in Arizona, cheap?
 
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And yes, the last enemy is death. Christ defeated that.

If Christ defeated death, why does Paul talk about death being defeated in the future? So have all enemies been defeated? If so, why do souls need to be destroyed?

Does your explanation make logical sense?

But after judgement day comes the LOF and the "second" death. The death of the soul.

What scriptures support your view that the second death is the death of the soul?

That's final or it wouldn't be called the"second" death.

Could there not be a thousand deaths?

The former will be passed away. And there will be no more death at this point.

So only life shall remain, and in abundance?

Because you are taking Christ out of the equation and putting the emphasis on the LOF for salvation/repentance

What is the new song in Revelation 15:4? Who comes to worship God in Revelation 21:24-26? For whom are the healing leaves of the tree of life in Revelation 22:2? Who is the tree of life, and what is the blood of the Lamb?

How is that true repentance? If that's all our Father needs, then this world age didn't even need to come into existence. Christ wouldn't have had to die on the cross and so on.

Are we saved by grace or by works?

And to suggest that a coal coming from the altar "prepared for our Heavenly Father" is in some way the same thing as the LOF that's "prepared" for Satan and his angels" is kind of disturbing.

What are the hot coals you seek to pour on my head? Why is the LOF in front of the ever-open Pearly Gates? What sat out front of Solomon's Temple and the Second Temple? What is the Pool of Bethesda? What are mikvaot?

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

You are widening this gate/path so all can find it through the LOF if many don't find true repentance through Christ. That's not biblical.

What is the promise that God gave to Abraham in Genesis 22:18? What oath does God swear in Isaiah 45:22-23? What does Paul say in Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:9? What is the consummation of the Gospel as per 1 Corinthians 15:28?


And no offense to anyone but I have left many false doctrines that I once believed when I found out they weren't biblical upon study. I even left churches because for the most part you will only be fed milk (salvation) issues and nothing more. There will be just a few verses followed by a man's written sermon having nothing to do with the meat of God's word. But back to the point at hand on universalism, I don't see it, honestly when I take the bible as a whole, not losing context.

I'd hate to think you'd lost your sanity in the process.
Not much sense in a God of life who kills everyone (save that worthy remnant), now is there? Is God just too weak to persuade poor lost deceived mankind to repent? Having shown how incomprehensibly deep His love is for us by giving His only begotten son, does He then throw in the towel in petulant disgust?

I think not, but you're most welcome to your snuff dreams.
 
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And when the reprobates, thieves, robbers, murderers, etc. are taken out of the burning coal of the divine brazier they will somehow instantly become obedient lovers of God and Jesus the same way criminals who are punished in prisons in this life instantly become law abiding citizens. Anybody interested in some ocean property in Arizona, cheap?

Don't you believe, der Alte? What is impossible for man is a cinch for God. Have you never heard how God's grace transforms hearts and minds? Who is God to you anyway.
 
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I'd hate to think you'd lost your sanity in the process.
Not much sense in a God of life who kills everyone (save that worthy remnant), now is there? Is God just too weak to persuade poor lost deceived mankind to repent? Having shown how incomprehensibly deep His love is for us by giving His only begotten son, does He then throw in the towel in petulant disgust?
Exactly!
Who or what, wins in that situation? Is God helpless to save?
 
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Exactly!
Who or what, wins in that situation? Is God helpless to save?

The Good News™
*may result in your eternal destruction or damnation.

Have a nice day! :blush:
 
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Saint Steven

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The Good News™
*may result in your eternal destruction or damnation.

Have a nice day! :blush:
What's the Latin for buyer beware? Caveat emptor?
We're not buying it. - lol

Damnationism is like the undersized yellow plaid jacket of religion.
 
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Der Alte

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Don't you believe, der Alte? What is impossible for man is a cinch for God. Have you never heard how God's grace transforms hearts and minds? Who is God to you anyway.
Absolutely! But come into my parlor said the spider to the fly. I have been trying to get some UR-ist to answer that question for a long time. Someone finally bit. So after some unrighteous person is cast into the fire for a shorter or longer period only then "God's grace transforms [their] hearts and minds?" Why doesn't God's grace transform their hearts and minds in this life before the fire? Does God then perform a Vulcan mind wipe and remove the memory of the fire?
 
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Light of the East

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Absolutely! But come into my parlor said the spider to the fly. I have been trying to get some UR-ist to answer that question for a long time. Someone finally bit. So after some unrighteous person is cast into the fire for a shorter or longer period only then "God's grace transforms [their] hearts and minds?" Why doesn't God's grace transform their hearts and minds in this life before the fire? Does God then perform a Vulcan mind wipe and remove the memory of the fire?

Have you read Thomas Talbot's take on this?
 
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Light of the East

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Who? Where?

Thomas Talbot's book, The Inescapable Love of God. He goes into philosophy similar to the questions you just asked.

The Inescapable Love of God: Second Edition: Talbott, Thomas: 9781625646903: Amazon.com: Books

Also, you should remember that we here on earth are not seeing the whole picture. Add to that the fact that we are deceived, and our natures bent toward sin, and you could see how some of us, in fact, a whole lot of us, cannot make that decision freely. I would say that as long as our sin makes us happy, we have no inducement to change (repent). I wrote about my own experience with this here:

God’s Hand & Our Free Will – Muddling Through Life (wordpress.com)

These questions on the free will of man and our choices are difficult and mysterious. Yet the bottom line for me is that understanding Universal Restoration appears to me to be like a three-legged stool consisting of the revelation of God in Christ, i.e., that God is love, the revelation of scripture, and the Holy Tradition of the church. Taking any one of these three as a sole source of truth is a recipe for theological disaster. In doing my investigation and putting all three of these sources together, I believe I have good reason for a strong hope in God’s ultimate restoration of all things, including all people.
 
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Thomas Talbot's book, The Inescapable Love of God. He goes into philosophy similar to the questions you just asked.
The Inescapable Love of God: Second Edition: Talbott, Thomas: 9781625646903: Amazon.com: Books
Also, you should remember that we here on earth are not seeing the whole picture. Add to that the fact that we are deceived, and our natures bent toward sin, and you could see how some of us, in fact, a whole lot of us, cannot make that decision freely. I would say that as long as our sin makes us happy, we have no inducement to change (repent). I wrote about my own experience with this here:
God’s Hand & Our Free Will – Muddling Through Life (wordpress.com)
These questions on the free will of man and our choices are difficult and mysterious. Yet the bottom line for me is that understanding Universal Restoration appears to me to be like a three-legged stool consisting of the revelation of God in Christ, i.e., that God is love, the revelation of scripture, and the Holy Tradition of the church. Taking any one of these three as a sole source of truth is a recipe for theological disaster. In doing my investigation and putting all three of these sources together, I believe I have good reason for a strong hope in God’s ultimate restoration of all things, including all people.
Nope! I don't think so. I have read a googol number of "scholars." I have been teaching and preaching through the Bible for 46+ years. I can read the Bible in more than one language. I do not need anyone to explain anything in the Bible to me.
I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades I have read every argument and every out-of-context proof text there is multiple times.
The only thing that will convince me of universal reconciliation [UR] is one verse, two or more would be much better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking, say unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death. or words to that effect. Do that and I am there.
 
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