There is a gap between that of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27.

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Let's skip ahead to verse 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?

If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immediately followed any events in the first century.

I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.

In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.
 
Last edited:

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 24:15 gives you a key to understanding this if you are so inclined. I always look at Luke as a compilation of testimonies from many witnesses(he said so in his introduction(Luke 1:2)), and I treat Matthew as an eye witness testimony by one of the Apostles.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 24:15 gives you a key to understanding this if you are so inclined. I always look at Luke as a compilation of testimonies from many witnesses(he said so in his introduction(Luke 1:2)), and I treat Matthew as an eye witness testimony by one of the Apostles.


So in what way does Matthew 24:15 give us the key to understanding this? For all I know, I might even end up agreeing with you. But I won't know until you answer the question first.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,015
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,901.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Let's skip ahead to verse 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?

If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immedietely followed any events in the first century.

I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.

In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.
You created a gap that none of the original audience would have seen. And just to not leave you hanging, read Isaiah 19:1 and see what Jesus mean by coming on a cloud.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century?

The Same way it happened throughout the OT whne God Judged individual nations.
God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

Isaiah 34 is the Destruction of EDOM.
The Day of the Lord (Isa 34) against EDOM
Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out;
Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down

As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,


The particular mention of God's sacrifice of the nations (including Edom) found in Isa 34 harmonizes with Ezekiel 25 and 26, where Edom's doom is particularly listed in Ez 25:12-14. It also harmonizes with Jeremiah 49:7-22 and the entire prophecy of Obadiah. As the prophecies said, Edom was destroyed at that time.

Here again we see the usual apocalyptic metaphors at the time of Edom's destruction: Jehovah comes down for battle to bring his sword against nations (Isa 34:5-9), the universe colapses (Isa 34:4),

That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

Only by totally and completely ignoring how the Old Testament employs this language of "Universal Cataclysm" and applies it to the past fulfilled judgements of Individual nations in real history, can anyone come to the conclusion you have.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immedietely followed any events in the first century.

Answered above.
You need to demonstrate form History where he stars fell from heaven, the moon did not givie it's light, the sun went dark and the Heavens dissolved WHEN The Medes destroyed Babylon and when Edom was Judged, in order to maintain the consistency of your view that it didn't happen in 70AD.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You created a gap that none of the original audience would have seen. And just to not leave you hanging, read Isaiah 19:1 and see what Jesus mean by coming on a cloud.

Let's assume for a moment that you are correct. We both agree Luke 21:20 involves what happened in 70 AD. Therefore, there is no debate involving that aspect.Still assuming you are correct, what explains the following if assuming this is meaning immediately after what you take the trib of those days to be meaning in this same verse---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Matthew 24:29)?


Still assuming you are correct, what then explains the coming in this verse, where this coming is meaning after the trib of those days, and after or during when the sun is darkened----and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory(Matthew 24:30)?


Do you have a dispute with the following chronology of events recorded in Matthew 24? First the trib of those days, then immediately following that the sun shall be darkened, then during or after that the coming recorded in verse 30? This would mean the coming in verse 30 is not directly involved with the trib of those days since the coming would be after the trib of those days, not during it. Thus why I asked all the previous questions I asked you.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Same way it happened throughout the OT whne God Judged individual nations.
God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

Isaiah 34 is the Destruction of EDOM.
The Day of the Lord (Isa 34) against EDOM
Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out;
Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down

As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.


It's interesting that you use passages like this, that you assume are already fulfilled, that I myself don't assume are already fulfilled. I take some of these same passages to be involving some of what Matthew 24:29 is involving, and that I take Matthew 24:29 to be future still. As to what you submitted above, I don't take much, if any of it all, in a literal sense, yet I still take it to be pertaining to events involving the literal end of this present age. We are somewhat at a stalemate involving these passages then.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,015
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,901.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Let's assume for a moment that you are correct. We both agree Luke 21:20 involves what happened in 70 AD. Therefore, there is no debate involving that aspect.Still assuming you are correct, what explains the following if assuming this is meaning immediately after what you take the trib of those days to be meaning in this same verse---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(Matthew 24:29)?

I’m not big on long posts, so I’ll address this first, and we will see where it goes from here. This is another example of where knowledge of the OT is helpful. Sun, moon, stars are used throughout the OT as leaders. Even in Joseph’s vision, they represented his father, mother, and brothers. So what’s being put forth is that the leadership of Israel will lose its authority. They have fallen.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: trophy33
Upvote 0

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So in what way does Matthew 24:15 give us the key to understanding this? For all I know, I might even end up agreeing with you. But I won't know until you answer the question first.

This statement is notably absent from the Luke account, yet it tells you specifically when the great tribulation will begin. The destruction of the temple by the Romans could not have been the occasion he was speaking of(abomination of desolation) because Jesus specifically stated that the great tribulation following it would be the worst ever and would have the potential to wipe out all flesh and would be followed by His return and resurrection of the dead.

This statement lines up with Daniel 11:31(abomination of desolation) and Daniel 12:1(time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time). Jesus also said that the resurrection would immediately follow the tribulation of those days(Matthew 24:29) just as Daniel described(Daniel 12:1-3)

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This statement is notably absent from the Luke account, yet it tells you specifically when the great tribulation will begin. The destruction of the temple by the Romans could not have been the occasion he was speaking of(abomination of desolation) because Jesus specifically stated that the great tribulation following it would be the worst ever and would have the potential to wipe out all flesh and would be followed by His return and resurrection of the dead.

This statement lines up with Daniel 11:31(abomination of desolation) and Daniel 12:1(time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time). Jesus also said that the resurrection would immediately follow the tribulation of those days(Matthew 24:29) just as Daniel described(Daniel 12:1-3)

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


I would say we are pretty much on the same page about a lot of this then. Where we might not be on the same page is, do these things involve the literal, such as a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem? My position is that it doesn't involve the literal. That aside. At least we are both using some of the same passages in Daniel to support what we are proposing.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I’m not big on long posts, so I’ll address this first, and we will see where it goes from here. This is another example of where knowledge of the OT is helpful. Sun, moon, stars are used throughout the OT as leaders. Even in Joseph’s vision, they represented his father, mother, and brothers. So what’s being put forth is that the leadership of Israel will lose its authority. They have fallen.


I can at least see why you might conclude what you do. It does have some logic to it, I'll give you that. But I am still convinced that the 2nd coming in the end of this age is recorded in the Discourse, and that the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, are referring to that coming.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,015
25,180
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,901.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I can at least see why you might conclude what you do. It does have some logic to it, I'll give you that. But I am still convinced that the 2nd coming in the end of this age is recorded in the Discourse, and that the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, are referring to that coming.
But you can’t derive that using scripture to interpret scripture. If you do that, you’ll see that these sayings (coming on the clouds; sun, moon, stars) all reference back to the OT and need to be understood that way.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: trophy33
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
(continue from last post)

2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12
  • "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  • And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  • And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  • That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
This has nothing to do with physical armies of Rome or physical building of Jerusalem. It is about those in the New Testament congregation who are deceived by false prophets and christs per context of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 period to Second Coming. Not 70AD.

Why? It is about those who had pleasure in or enjoyed unrighteousness, and who refused to believe the truth that His witnesses testified to, would be damned! So you see, God is not mocked. While the church today wants to excuse those who will not receive truth with a "don't judge," God is more straight and to the point with them. The false Christians will not go unpunished.

Ultimately we need to ask ourselves many questions about the words of Revelation. Like who are the nations/gentiles that are not deceived? Why and how were they "not deceived?" Who are the kings of the nations that God sends to fulfill His will? Why are they (after this millennial) allowed to be deceived, when during it they weren't? Etc., etc. The nations/Gentiles not deceived are the New Testament church who receive a seal and protection during the 1000 years, and that was kept from being deceived so God could build this body up the church! And yet when Satan is loosed as judgment for their unfaithfulness in the end time church, they are deceived (Revelation 20) and by a strong delusion these kings of the nations assault the Saints. This deception is delirium, like a spiritual insanity which the Scriptures call "strong Delusion," and it is an extreme foolishness or irrationality of God's people (what the binding of Satan before prevented) to actually be offended at truth and stand against the faithful Saints. This is when the 2 witnesses (Elect) of truth are spiritually killed of them because the time of their testimony unto salvation is over (Why? because all Israel having been saved, remember?). The synopsis of which is Revelation 11:7-10

Revelation 11:7-10
  • "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
  • And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
  • And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
  • And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
At this time the nations/gentiles have been given the court and have made the once great city, spiritually called Jerusalem, morally and spiritually equivalent to Sodom and Egypt, and have removed the true witnesses of Christ from the church. Thus there is spiritual famine, but not of literal food and water, but of the spiritual version (Amos 8 ) which is the word of God. Just as in the days of Israel's desolation and blindness:

Isaiah 29:7-10
  • "And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
  • It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
  • Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
  • For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
  • And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:"
Ariel is Jerusalem. So shall it be to this once great city when God brings judgment upon His New Testament Congregation EXACTLY as He did upon Old Testament Israel. Thus the the warning of God that the Gentiles/Nations (same word) cannot boast against the Jews (Romans 11) because they are no better and stand by grace, illustrates the Gentile congregation can fall and come under judgment of God just as easily as national Israel of Old, if they forsake their first love. The judgment of God is that their Candlestick will be moved out of its place, their light has gone out, they become delusional, spiritually insane, perplexed and in confusion. This is a portrait of spiritual night terrors. Where once perfect love cast out feat, now fear reigns, for their hearts are set on earthly things rather than spiritual things. This is what happens when the powers of heaven are shaken, the stars (messengers) fall to the earth no more to be reflectors of God's light. This is their judgment. The powers of the Kingdom of heaven are symbolically the Sun, Moon and Stars, representing the lights of God's kingdom. The same stars Revelation 11 said Satan cast down to the earth. This meaning these lights will be put out as God's judgment on the unfaithful congregation.

Luke 21:25-26
  • "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
  • Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
It's all a declaration of God's judgment upon His Unfaithful Church, and by extension of diminishing light, the world.

Jude 1:13
  • "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
The apostasy and consequent judgment on the church is a prelude to the final judgment when the books are opened. Just as the nation of Israel in the Old Testament, as an example, in its foolishness thought it could never happen to them, so also the New Testament congregation is under the same delusion that it cannot fall. Yet it is written, Judgment begins at God's house.

Ezekiel 9:6
  • "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."
There is nothing new under the sun saith the Preacher. Judgment must begin at the house of God, and the world's is not far behind. But Christians are so wrapped up in everyday affairs of this life, possessions, politics (including Trump!), that they neglect their first love and abandon their real commission. Which isn't to save the WHOLE WORLD (an impossibility) but to preach the gospel that SOME (the elect), redeemed all the nations, might hear and be drawn. So many are offended at the truth at every turn, and reject God's word in favor of man's plans. Many so filled with anger, hypocrisy, hate and pride that they can't see the trees for the forest. With their eyes on houses, lusts, taxes, politics, nations, rulers, possessions and the pleasures of this earth they forget about the reason that they were redeemed, and the obligation of their stewardship. These are the nations that are at war with, are offended by, and that destroy Jerusalem. It's not Russia, it's not North Korea, It is not Rome, It is not China. Rather it is the KINGS OF THE EARTH who are the wicked ruling and reigning within the New Testament church. And judgment begins there, not the world! Selah!

1st Peter 4:16-18
  • "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
  • For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
  • And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
Indeed, Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice, and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth (1st Chronicles 16:31).
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
For any of you with carnal mind who insisted that the "nations" or "gentiles" of Revelation 20 that Satan deceived are some political nations or literal governments, etc. They misunderstood what Christ talked about.

Nations and Gentiles are both the "exact same words" with the exact same meaning in Scripture! In the Old Testament, Israel is Jews while those outside Israel are considered as Gentiles. However, in the New Testament, Christ has explained that those who are sealed by Christ's blood are Jew while those who have not yet born again are considered as Gentiles or Nations. For example, heathen (nonbelieving) people who didn't know the God of Israel. With this event described in Revelation 20, their blindness is lifted so that they would now have this knowledge and not continue to be deceived by the great deceiver, Satan. That's what the language of the "nations no longer being deceived" illustrates. Salvation went to the Jew first, and now with the fall of Old Testament Congregation of Israel, it is going to the Gentiles/Nations of the world.

Isaiah 42:1-3
  • "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
  • He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
  • A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
  • He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."
This Old Testament prophesy refers to CHRIST and the bringing judgment to the Gentiles/Nations refers to His bringing the law and Covenant to them in the New Testament/Covenant dispensation, as is also quoted from and confirmed by Christ Himself in Matthew

Matthew 12:15-21
  • "But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
  • And charged them that they should not make him known:
  • That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
  • Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
  • He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
  • A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
  • And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."
See? When the Jews were expecting Jesus become king and to liberal Jews and their physical city from Rome, God has a different plan. Showing judgment to the Gentiles/Nations is synonymous to bringing God's law and revelation to them that they are not deceived. The same illustration of Christ, the Messenger of the Covenant, that we see in

Revelation 20:1-4
  • "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
  • And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  • And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

It's the same scenario! The Messenger come down from Heaven to bind Satan and bring judgment to the Gentiles/nations is Christ Jesus who is Archangel Michael for he is the chief messenger of the covenant. Not some feathered created being as some believe. Nations and Gentiles refer to the same group of people.

It's like the Greek word [agelos], that "means" messenger, but is also translated angel by many translators. The same with the word [ethnos], meaning a group of people, specially non-Jewish, is also translated nations because the Gentile or non-Jews are foreign peoples or nations. Just as in the Old Testament it's the Hebrew word [gowy], used the exact same way. Gentiles/nations. Revelation 20 is what is spoken about in the prophesy of Isaiah, where judgment is given and the Gentiles/nations flow into the great city, which is spiritually the Lord's house. This is salvation unto the Gentiles/Nations and judgment upon national Israel, which came with Christ's death and resurrection.

Isaiah 2:1-4
  • "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
  • And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
  • And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
  • And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Please notice that all nations shall flow unto it is pointing to the great commission where Christ told us to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, and the nations/gentiles flowing into it are the fruits of these labors in Christ Jesus. This started at the cross and ends when all Israel is sealed unto the day of redemption. We can't get hung up on the word translated "nations" and start thinking like the the evangelicals, of the nation of Israel and other physical nations, that's not what God has in view. The Political Nations aren't saved or kept from being deceived by Satan. It is the individuals are saved and they come into the "Spiritual Nation," and become "Spiritual Jews" and are brought "Spiritual Peace" and comfort in the "Spiritual" Israel of God (Romans 2:28-29, Ephesians 2:11-22). While the ones who are not brought into the Kingdom of God are "Gentiles!". As it is written...Sealed Christians are Jews by nature IN CHRIST while the rest are Gentiles!

Galatians 2:15
  • "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,"
One group contrasted with the other. The word you see translated Nations is the exact same word you see in this verse translated Gentiles, and of course this [ethnos], clearly means here the non-Jews or what Scripture calls Gentiles. These were the foreigners from the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants. Galatians 2:15 contrasts the Jewish people with the non-Jewish people by the use of the word (Gentiless/Nations).

Selah.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Clearly, the strong man is Satan, those he held captive in his house are the elect whom Christ set free, but Jesus explains "first" He had to bind Satan. In other words, it was Christ who cast out Satan, but first he had to bind him. And as Revelation 20 illustrates, only then could the nations/gentiles no longer be deceived.

Throughout your proposed millennium there are billions upon billions of Gentiles who remain deceived, though. Why is that if satan is bound so that he should deceive them no more? You're not going to deny that billions upon billions of Gentiles remain deceived throughout your proposed millennium, are you?


Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Who are these meaning? Are these meaning ones that were never deceived during your proposed millennium? Or are they meaning ones that were deceived during your proposed millennium? The text says their numbers are as the sand of the sea, which might mean billions.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pasifika

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2019
2,368
634
45
Waikato
✟161,016.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake tLuke21hose days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Let's skip ahead to verse 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?

If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immediately followed any events in the first century.

I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.

In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.
I dont see a gap in Luke 21:20-27 same event leading up to the second coming..
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Throughout your proposed millennium there are billions upon billions of Gentiles who remain deceived, though. Why is that if satan is bound so that he should deceive them no more? You're not going to deny that billions upon billions of Gentiles remain deceived throughout your proposed millennium, are you?

Not everyone in the world were suddenly "not deceived" the day Christ bound Satan. Satan STILL rule over the unsaved world. He was only bound for the SAKE OF THE ELECT, not everyone in the world. Only those who God draws to hear the Gospel. It takes time for church to build into the world since the Cross.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Who are these meaning? Are these meaning ones that were never deceived during your proposed millennium? Or are they meaning ones that were deceived during your proposed millennium? The text says their numbers are as the sand of the sea, which might mean billions.

Don't forget that the church makes up of two groups of people. Many are called, few are chosen. It means that many people are called into the church but the majority of them are not truly saved. The Elect is only a remant. A true church within a church. Satan still rules over unsaved world but his power to deceive has been restricted FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT. He cannot stop people God's chosoen ones from salvation. Now, once all Elect God intended to seal has been sealed (Revelation 7:1-4), Satan will once again have the power to deceive. But pay attention carefully who he can deceive:

Rev 9:1-6
(1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Since the unsaved world was always in Satan's camp, he is allowed to come INTO God's congregation to deceive those who have not yet sealed of God. Remember MANY are called, few are chosen. It is the "many" that Satan will deceive to make sure they remain unsaved with his lying signs and wonders through the false prophets and christs. "In those days" (judgment of God upon Babylon), professed Christians in the church will seek salvation (death in Christ) or have desire to be saved (die in christ) but salvaiton has been removed from them from God becasue they are NOT choosen but subject to judgment for their unfaithfulness IN HIS CHURCH all over the world! This is what Satan will do - Gog and Magog! Elect will not be deceived because they are sealed of God and with "spirit of life" they will "see" abomination of desolation as result of God's judgment upon His unfaithful congregation by using Satan and his armies of false prophets and christ against the unsaved people WITHIN the church. The Elect will then flee from it to avoid being partake of her plagues. So you can see why the battle of Armageddon (Gog and Magog) takes over all over the world wherever the churches are! This is where Satan attacks when he is granted to have his power restored and commanded by God that he only can hurt those people INSIDE his congregation who have not yet sealed by God like He does with His Elect. After all Elects has been secured, the days of salvation has ended...for a short season before Christ returns. That is the judgment of the harlot.
 
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,485
1,045
Colorado
✟414,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I like to add something.

In the New Testament, the Elect is considered as Jew in Christ while the unsaved is considered as the Gentles, okay? Satan rules over the Gentiles, but was restricted from SOME Gentiles who has become Jews in Christ when they are born again, get it?

In God's eyes, He has called many people into His Holy City. Many are professed believers. Few are chosen Elect. The Elects can only be found within Temple area because they are being measured. While the rest are found in the court outside the temple and not measured. They both are together in the Holy City during the New Testament period. It is the church! Outside the city is Gentiles who are unsaved and has nothing to do with the church until used by Satan to coming into the city. Read wisely:

Rev 11:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

After God have secured all Elect, he will start cleanse the temple by giving the court which is without the temple to the Gentiles. This is spiritual picture of how Satan can be allowed to into God's church, more specifically, the outer court to deceive ALL men who have not yet sealed of God, Revelation 9. Satan works through false propehts and christs, as well as professed christians, to deceived many within the church. This is how apostasy grow to the point of desolation. No one can notice it on the first day Satan is loosen. It take time for him to overcome church after church as he battles against Two Witnesses (Elect's truthful testimony). Eventually, you will see more and more churches falling into apostasy and desolation if you are indeed God's Chosen Child who can see it. This is how we discern the signs of Christ's return.
 
Upvote 0

Jake Arsenal

Active Member
Mar 2, 2021
306
193
Celestial City
✟40,016.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would say we are pretty much on the same page about a lot of this then. Where we might not be on the same page is, do these things involve the literal, such as a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem? My position is that it doesn't involve the literal. That aside. At least we are both using some of the same passages in Daniel to support what we are proposing.

I am proposing avoiding attempts to make the pieces fit before all the pieces are lined up. @Hammster made a point about the sun and the moon being darkened, which is a theme in all scriptures regarding the great and terrible day of the Lord(Return of Christ), and I agree that to understand these prophesies, we must cast off all that we think we know and replace it with the Scriptures. Rather than try to determine what an individual prophesy refers to, we should take advantage of the NT explanations for how the prophesies about Christ were fulfilled. Some of those prophesies could never have been understood in advance. They were designed to be understood after they were fulfilled.

Some scholars will tell you that most(or all) of the OT prophesies were fulfilled or were referring to events in the past, but I have to disagree. Many of the prophesy books of the OT have to do with the great and terrible day of the Lord. We can know this because they either say so, or they talk about the most prominent signs of that day(Sun and moon darkened). Paul chastised those who were deceived into believing that the Day had already come, and Jesus clearly explained that it could not be missed(Matthew 24:27).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I dont see a gap in Luke 21:20-27 same event leading up to the second coming..

Where do you place Luke 21:20 in time? Because if it involves 70 AD and that the coming in verse 27 involves the 2nd coming in the end of this age how could there possibly not be a gap of at least 2000 years beyween those 2 events? Maybe I should also ask you what you take the 2nd coming to mean? Maybe you don't take it mean what I take it to mean?
 
Upvote 0