The world's present form, is not the same as the world of Paul

Davy · Dec 31, 2021

Michael Collum said:
Elaborate on the 2nd world earth age.

In 2 Peter 3, he was covering 3 world earth ages.

1. "the world that then was", the 1st world earth age:

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

That was God's original perfect creation, prior to Satan's rebellion. Per Ezekiel 28, God said He created Satan originally perfect in his ways. God is using the prince and king of Tyrus there to symbolically represent Satan.

What Peter said above is linked to the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2, being overflowed with water, which is how God destroyed that old world because of Satan's original rebellion. At Genesis 1:1 is when "by the word of God" He made that 1st world in the beginning. So this destruction by water was not... the time of Noah.

2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now":

2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

This is our present world earth age we are now in, a 2nd one. It began at Genesis 1:2. The phrase "without form, and void" actually means 'a waste and an indistinguishable ruin' per the Hebrew tohu va bohu. In Jeremiah 4 is another example of that phrase describing a destruction upon the earth by God.

Jer 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
KJV

This is why at the end of Hebrews 12, Paul quoted God saying, "Yet once more" that He is going to shake this earth, but not earth only, but heaven also, and it will involve His consuming fire.

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

Gregory Thompson · Dec 31, 2021

Davy said:
In 2 Peter 3, he was covering 3 world earth ages.

1. "the world that then was", the 1st world earth age:

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

That was God's original perfect creation, prior to Satan's rebellion. Per Ezekiel 28, God said He created Satan originally perfect in his ways. God is using the prince and king of Tyrus there to symbolically represent Satan.

What Peter said above is linked to the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2, being overflowed with water, which is how God destroyed that old world because of Satan's original rebellion. At Genesis 1:1 is when "by the word of God" He made that 1st world in the beginning. So this destruction by water was not... the time of Noah.

2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now":

2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

This is our present world earth age we are now in, a 2nd one. It began at Genesis 1:2. The phrase "without form, and void" actually means 'a waste and an indistinguishable ruin' per the Hebrew tohu va bohu. In Jeremiah 4 is another example of that phrase describing a destruction upon the earth by God.

Jer 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
KJV

This is why at the end of Hebrews 12, Paul quoted God saying, "Yet once more" that He is going to shake this earth, but not earth only, but heaven also, and it will involve His consuming fire.

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

Okay, second one because of the flood, got it.

Thank you for explaining that.

Though technically, the first and second worlds are based on the same creation covenant. The New Heaven and New Earth (third world according to your explanation) is based on a different covenant.

The point of the OP is to discuss how the world Paul was in must have passed away due to the pre-emminent texts that lend to the preterist viewpoint.

However, it is entirely possible that the current world is the same as Paul's except it's state of decay is more advanced now so it's hard to recognize.

Davy · Jan 2, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Okay, second one because of the flood, got it.

Thank you for explaining that.

Though technically, the first and second worlds are based on the same creation covenant. The New Heaven and New Earth (third world according to your explanation) is based on a different covenant.

No, not what I showed from Scripture. I don't think you understand the idea of the creation per God's Word. For example, in 2 Peter 3:10 many mistake the KJV word "elements" there to mean earth matter like the atomic weights table of elements. It's not about that, it's about a sequential arrangement, like a world age. The earth is not literally destroyed, but cleansed of man's works off it, similar to what the flood of Noah's day did. The end of this present 2nd world earth age we are in now will be destroyed by fire, not the earth literally destroyed, but its surface cleansed of man's works by fire, instead of water.

There have been 2 world-wide floods upon this earth:
1st world -- the old world between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. A 'perfect' world age when Satan was perfect in his ways per Ezekiel 28.

(At the Genesis 1:2 verse, that old world is shown having been destroyed by waters covering the whole earth. The later Genesis 1:2 thru 1:9 verses shows God restoring the earth to its present 2nd world condition of today, an 'imperfect' world age.)

2nd world -- after God ended the old world by a flood when Satan rebelled (not days of Noah). This 2nd world we are still in today. This world is reserved unto destruction by God's consuming fire. God began this present world at Genesis 1:2, which was a 'partial' restoration (see Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Romans 8:18-25).

3rd world -- the world to come, the new heavens and a new earth, God's future Eternity that will come after Christ's future "thousand years" reign, and the "second death" of the casting into the future "lake of fire".

The point of the OP is to discuss how the world Paul was in must have passed away due to the pre-emminent texts that lend to the preterist viewpoint.

However, it is entirely possible that the current world is the same as Paul's except it's state of decay is more advanced now so it's hard to recognize.

The Scripture quoted from Paul is about this present world earth age passing away though. Apostle Paul well understood the difference between this present world time, and the world to come.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 2, 2022

Davy said:
No, not what I showed from Scripture. I don't think you understand the idea of the creation per God's Word. For example, in 2 Peter 3:10 many mistake the KJV word "elements" there to mean earth matter like the atomic weights table of elements. It's not about that, it's about a sequential arrangement, like a world age. The earth is not literally destroyed, but cleansed of man's works off it, similar to what the flood of Noah's day did. The end of this present 2nd world earth age we are in now will be destroyed by fire, not the earth literally destroyed, but its surface cleansed of man's works by fire, instead of water.

There have been 2 world-wide floods upon this earth:
1st world -- the old world between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. A 'perfect' world age when Satan was perfect in his ways per Ezekiel 28.

(At the Genesis 1:2 verse, that old world is shown having been destroyed by waters covering the whole earth. The later Genesis 1:2 thru 1:9 verses shows God restoring the earth to its present 2nd world condition of today, an 'imperfect' world age.)

2nd world -- after God ended the old world by a flood when Satan rebelled (not days of Noah). This 2nd world we are still in today. This world is reserved unto destruction by God's consuming fire. God began this present world at Genesis 1:2, which was a 'partial' restoration (see Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Romans 8:18-25).

3rd world -- the world to come, the new heavens and a new earth, God's future Eternity that will come after Christ's future "thousand years" reign, and the "second death" of the casting into the future "lake of fire".

The Scripture quoted from Paul is about this present world earth age passing away though. Apostle Paul well understood the difference between this present world time, and the world to come.

Nope, I get it, I just don't repeat it back to you like a parrot.

That's the main issue you're having.

Davy · Jan 2, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Nope, I get it, I just don't repeat it back to you like a parrot.

That's the main issue you're having.

That's kind of rude.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 2, 2022

Davy said:
That's kind of rude.

Apologies, your post was rude also, but bad behavior does not excuse bad behavior. So sorry.

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 2, 2022

Michael Collum said:
"This world in its present form is passing away." 1 Corinthians 7:31

The world's present form, is not the same as the present form of the world when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians. Whatever the world was during Paul's time, it has passed away. What we are living in currently is a different world.

Discuss.

Why not try the novel approach of reading the verse in context instead of pulling it out of context and trying to make it into some dramatic metaphysical pronouncement?

Paul was discussing marriage. His advice on marriage was colored by the fact he thought "the time is short" (v. 29). He was simply wrong. The time wasn't short.

He thought the world in its present form was passing away, that Jesus would soon return. He was simply wrong. There's no greater mystery than that.

Paul was talking about an ontologically different world, the world after the Second Coming. We aren't there yet. We still live in the same world as Paul.

Davy · Jan 2, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Apologies, your post was rude also, but bad behavior does not excuse bad behavior. So sorry.

My feeling the need to explain myself to you was me being rude?!$%^&?? You're weird.

Davy · Jan 2, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
Why not try the novel approach of reading the verse in context instead of pulling it out of context and trying to make it into some dramatic metaphysical pronouncement?

Paul was discussing marriage. His advice on marriage was colored by the fact he thought "the time is short" (v. 29). He was simply wrong. The time wasn't short.

He thought the world in its present form was passing away, that Jesus would soon return. He was simply wrong. There's no greater mystery than that.

Paul was talking about an ontologically different world, the world after the Second Coming. We aren't there yet. We still live in the same world as Paul.

Yet Apostle Paul still well knew that future world was near, i.e., that even he was living in the last days (2 Timothy 3; Hebrews 1:2).

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 2, 2022

Davy said:
Yet Apostle Paul still well knew that future world was near, i.e., that even he was living in the last days (2 Timothy 3; Hebrews 1:2).

The early Christians, including Paul, thought the Second Coming was imminent. They were simply wrong. We have been living in the "last days" in one sense ever since the Resurrection, but the "passing away" language in 1 Corinthians 7:31 was referring to an imminent Second Coming. The discussion of whether unmarried people and widows should marry makes no sense in any other context. Paul was simply wrong,

Davy · Jan 2, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
The early Christians, including Paul, thought the Second Coming was imminent.
They were simply wrong. We have been living in the "last days" in one sense ever since the Resurrection, but the "passing away" language in 1 Corinthians 7:31 was referring to an imminent Second Coming. The discussion of whether unmarried people and widows should marry makes no sense in any other context. Paul was simply wrong,

I know they were expecting the kingdom of Israel to be restored then, but Lord Jesus did not tell them it would be then, but just the opposite, that His Kingdom is not of this world. So they had to have know it would not be during this present world time.

RDKirk · Jan 2, 2022

Irkle Berserkle said:
The early Christians, including Paul, thought the Second Coming was imminent. They were simply wrong. We have been living in the "last days" in one sense ever since the Resurrection, but the "passing away" language in 1 Corinthians 7:31 was referring to an imminent Second Coming. The discussion of whether unmarried people and widows should marry makes no sense in any other context. Paul was simply wrong,

In Paul's day, it was a novel and uncontemplated concept among the gentiles that the world was going somewhere, that it would not continue on forever as it had always been.

Paul wasn't wrong, the "passing" is merely taking longer than he expected. It is still "passing away." The important point, more obvious to us now than it was to people then, is that the world is not eternal and static, but is on a timeline heading toward an endpoint.

Irkle Berserkle · Jan 2, 2022

RDKirk said:
In Paul's day, it was a novel and uncontemplated concept among the gentiles that the world was going somewhere, that it would not continue on forever as it had always been.

Paul wasn't wrong, the "passing" is merely taking longer than he expected. It is still "passing away." The important point, more obvious to us now than it was to people then, is that the world is not eternal and static, but is on a timeline heading toward an endpoint.

No, Paul and the early Christians were wrong, simple as that. He was not wrong that the world was passing away. He was wrong that the passing away was imminent. Again, read the verse IN CONTEXT. I'm not proposing some novel theory - it's beyond dispute that the early Christians expected an imminent return of Jesus that didn't happen. (Your first sentence lost me - what is a "novel and uncontemplated concept"?)

Really my only point is that entire thread is misguided because it starts by pulling 1 Corinthians 7:31 out of context and tries to make it into a grand metaphysical pronouncement.

Bruce Leiter · Jan 3, 2022

Michael Collum said:
"This world in its present form is passing away." 1 Corinthians 7:31

The world's present form, is not the same as the present form of the world when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians. Whatever the world was during Paul's time, it has passed away. What we are living in currently is a different world.

Discuss.

I've heard your idea before, but it has precious little biblical proof to back it up. It seems to be a reading of the interpreter's ideas into the text. Let the mysteries in the Bible remain mysteries.

fhansen · Jan 3, 2022

Michael Collum said:
"This world in its present form is passing away." 1 Corinthians 7:31

The world's present form, is not the same as the present form of the world when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians. Whatever the world was during Paul's time, it has passed away. What we are living in currently is a different world.

Discuss.

I think it's a very slow passing that's happening.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 4, 2022

fhansen said:
I think it's a very slow passing that's happening.

That's what it looks like, for sure. 360,000 = 1 and so forth.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 4, 2022

Bruce Leiter said:
Let the mysteries in the Bible remain mysteries.

I wouldn't mind if the rest of modern theologians would do that, too much need for visual confirmation nowadays.

faithisthekey1 · Jan 5, 2022

"This world in its present form is passing away." 1 Corinthians 7:31

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev21:1-4

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 7, 2022

Michael Collum said:
"This world in its present form is passing away." 1 Corinthians 7:31

The world's present form, is not the same as the present form of the world when Paul wrote 1st Corinthians. Whatever the world was during Paul's time, it has passed away. What we are living in currently is a different world.

Discuss.

Yep. Paul lived in the despotic ancient world where actual idolatry was imposed upon the people by the kings and emperors that ruled it.

We are living in the promised age that was to occur when the Roman Empire fell. An age of an ever growing free world created by Christians. A world in which the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints, unfulfilled in their generations, could finally start coming to pass.

What brought this to pass? The Bible getting into the hands of the general public right when that fourth h empire fell.

Isaiah 29
“And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:”
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