Prior to Christianity, were all followers of Pagan religions completely severed from God?

Landon Caeli said:

I think what you're talking about here is gaining salvation. But I'm mostly talking about God working through those outside the Church, such as the Pagans before Christ.

IOW, I'm not sure it can be stated with any scriptural or even logical backup, that the Pagans were incapable of receiving God's grace, or even instructions, as rare or far in between as that may have been.

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Anyone is capable of receiving God's grace...The goodness of God leads us to repentance Romans 2:4b...aren't all Pagan before salvation?

Landon Caeli said:

I suppose you are correct.

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Reminds me of my husband...just agree with her and she'll go away

Landon Caeli said:

You mean Pagans were all predestined to be followers of Satan? So were they incapable of doing good, or did some fault and accidentally do good on occasion?

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If a person is not saved by works then they cannot be condemned for works either... We are saved by faith and condemned by unfaith: Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So while a condemned person can do good works even while enslaved to sin, all his works are tainted by the evil he is not just the evil he does and he can never by his works break that grip sin has upon him.

As for predestination, I do not accept that it is GOD forcing or creating our fates but the promise of GOD to fulfill our chosen fates.

Landon Caeli said:

So if their linguistical tradition was good enough for God's Holy Spirit to deliver scriptures, then how can we assume their other traditions are all purely evil? ...And not actually having been instituted by God?

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Their language was given to them by GOD at the destruction of the tower... and all government is given to them: John 19:11 “You would have no authority over me at all,” Jesus answered him, “if it hadn't been given you from above." They turn this gov't to evil because their nature is evil, not to be trusted.

I just don't understand this...sympathy for the devil, sigh.

Psalm 27 said:

Anyone is capable of receiving God's grace...The goodness of God leads us to repentance Romans 2:4b...aren't all Pagan before salvation?

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I do understand this but I can't agree...I do not think that sheep are reformed goats nor good seed are repentant weeds...

All are evil equally but some sinners are condemned for unbelief already (goats, weeds) and some sinners will never be condemned (sheep, good seed) due to their belief: John 3:18.

I've been intrigued by the throne judgment at the end of Matthew 25. Jesus says that before him will be gathered "all the nations". To his immediate audience that would've meant the Gentile world, the "unchosen" of mankind.

They're judged by their works, not by faith. And those whose lives were marked by deeds of kindness receive eternal life. The rest don't.

As a result, I think that Jesus might grant eternal life to those who lived lives of kindness, even if they were never chosen by the Father.

Landon Caeli said:

I'm curious how far separated the Pagans would have been from God. I can only imagine that as people created in his image, God would have had at least some influence in their lives. The reason I ask is because I get the impression that some Christians view all the Pagans as purely satanic, and completely removed from God's love. I'm not sure that's true.

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I believe actual pagans pre-Christ were Vikings, original Britons and French people's...

Most pagans this be the case had little witness of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but even with them God says they had evidence of God, although I'm not sure what that was.

But I would venture a guess that they were absolutely ruled by Satan and fairly well cut off from God. In which case it is God who judges people, and He is never unjust.

TedT said:

I do understand this but I can't agree...I do not think that sheep are reformed goats nor good seed are repentant weeds...

All are evil equally but some sinners are condemned for unbelief already (goats, weeds) and some sinners will never be condemned (sheep, good seed) due to their belief: John 3:18.

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Aaah, sorry, you're talking about predestination. I'm more of a 'repent and believe' (or believe and repent) person...and Im still on a journey of believing and repenting

ChetSinger said:

I've been intrigued by the throne judgment at the end of Matthew 25. Jesus says that before him will be gathered "all the nations". To his immediate audience that would've meant the Gentile world, the "unchosen" of mankind.

They're judged by their works, not by faith. And those whose lives were marked by deeds of kindness receive eternal life. The rest don't.

As a result, I think that Jesus might grant eternal life to those who lived lives of kindness, even if they were never chosen by the Father.

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John 14:6

Psalm 27 said:

John 14:6

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True. But when the nations are being judged, it's Jesus himself making the decisions. So, they're still coming to the Father through him.

ChetSinger said:

I've been intrigued by the throne judgment at the end of Matthew 25. Jesus says that before him will be gathered "all the nations". To his immediate audience that would've meant the Gentile world, the "unchosen" of mankind.

They're judged by their works, not by faith. And those whose lives were marked by deeds of kindness receive eternal life. The rest don't.

As a result, I think that Jesus might grant eternal life to those who lived lives of kindness, even if they were never chosen by the Father.

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I'm not so sure that's what Matthew meant. Most commentators think the least of these my brethren actually refers to Christians. Brethren in Matthew always means Christians, and there are examples of "little ones" and similar language in early Christian writers referring to Christians.

If that's true, then people of "the nations" are judged based upon their treatment of Christians, which probably reflects their attitude towards Christianity.

I checked with Calvin, to make sure this isn't just a modern view. He also says that the episode involves one's help of Christians, though he doesn't have the same understanding of the meaning I do.

The NT doesn't actually deal with pagans that much. Jesus seems to be preaching entirely to fellow Jews. All the warnings about judgement are directed against behavior and attitudes that might apply to his listeners.

Even Paul doesn't explicitly deal with it very much. I would think Romans 2 would be the main example. That seems to imply that some are followers of God in their hearts. Of course 2 follows 1. 1:18-32 is a stock Jewish condemnation of Gentiles. It maintains that idolatry makes them inherently immoral. I understand that as an argument of Paul's opponents, part of their case that Gentiles are unacceptable, and must convert to Judaism in order to be Christian. I think Paul quotes it in order to refute it in chapters 2 and 3. His answer has two parts: Gentiles aren't inherently immoral, because some have the Law written in their hearts, and Jews aren't necessarily superior. They're sinners too.

I would say that not all pagans are alike. E.g. some view multiple gods as multiple faces of a single divine, and as Paul said, have the law written in their hearts. Others follow vengeful gods that demand sacrifice and support injustice. I don't think there's a blanket judgement on all pagans, but that God knows who his own are.

There is a weakness to using Rom 2 in this context, even though I do. It is meant solely to refute the attack quoted in Rom 1. I.e. references to the Law in their hearts is meant to show that Gentiles are not inherently incapable of being Christians, and thus in need of converting to Judaism first. Paul is not intentionally dealing with the salvation of non-Christians.

Psalm 27 said:

John 14:6

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In John, Jesus is speaking as the Word incarnate. So "me" could well mean the Logos, not the human Jesus. That raises the possibility for people having (to paraphrase Paul) the Word in their hearts without explicitly connecting it with Jesus.

We have to assume something like that for Jews, or we'd end up with Abraham excluded. It's interesting that he is Paul's example of faith, even though his faith is not specifically in Jesus.

ChetSinger said:

I've been intrigued by the throne judgment at the end of Matthew 25. Jesus says that before him will be gathered "all the nations". To his immediate audience that would've meant the Gentile world, the "unchosen" of mankind.

They're judged by their works, not by faith. And those whose lives were marked by deeds of kindness receive eternal life. The rest don't.

As a result, I think that Jesus might grant eternal life to those who lived lives of kindness, even if they were never chosen by the Father.

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It would seem so if we assume that it is meant to be every human gathered together, but the sheep and goats reference implies that what is gathered is two groups that are externally almost indistinguishable. While most goats and domestic sheep are fairly dissimilar and readily identifiable, the Israeli mountain goat is almost imperceptibly different from their domestic sheep with the difference solely being their tails. So what Jesus gathers to judge is not people of every stripe, but confessing "believers" and those who claim to believe but whose lives deny it are sent to His left to eternal punishment while those whose faith is displayed in their actions are given their inheritance.

Hazelelponi said:

...God says they had evidence of God, although I'm not sure what that was.

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Consider comparing Rom 1:20 For FROM/SINCE the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood by the things made, so that men are without excuse.
[From: NASB Translation after]
with the details of the creation found in Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?

Just what is being implied here?

Landon Caeli said:

I'm curious how far separated the Pagans would have been from God. I can only imagine that as people created in his image, God would have had at least some influence in their lives. The reason I ask is because I get the impression that some Christians view all the Pagans as purely satanic, and completely removed from God's love. I'm not sure that's true.

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This comes to mind. Scripture below.
All of humankind has a God-given conscience. "... their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Landon Caeli said:

I'm curious how far separated the Pagans would have been from God. I can only imagine that as people created in his image, God would have had at least some influence in their lives. The reason I ask is because I get the impression that some Christians view all the Pagans as purely satanic, and completely removed from God's love. I'm not sure that's true.

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In other words, we need to honestly define the term "pagan"? That word always seemed intentionally insulting, to me. How can any-man even hope to evangelize the very same people who heard him calling them pagans, the day before?

As for the term polytheistic, which is tied to the word pagan...
Jesus points out the fact that the Judaeans were called gods... and quotes from Psalms 82, where God stands in the assembly of gods. And we all know that Elohim is not singular, don't we? "Let us make man in our image." The Father is God and Jesus is God... Is that polytheistic, or not?

In fact, Psalms 82 says gods were those given the responsibility of applying the Law to the world itself, and so princes of the nations must have also been considered gods, in that same context. The princes were angels like Michael.

Psalms 82:1 God stands in the assembly of gods; and in the midst of them will judge gods. 2 How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? 3 Judge the orphan and poor: do justice to the low and needy. 4 Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They know not, nor understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.LXX

Psalms 50:1 The God of gods, the Lord, has spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof.LXX

At least some of those "Pagans" call their creator "Most High God".

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.KJV

BobRyan said:

Many Christians today still believe in something they call "communion with the dead" regarding their practice of contacting the dead with requests...or adoration and praise etc.

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Some Christans also believe in something they call "Investigative Judgement" which appears nowhere in Scripture. Neither of these things has any actual relevence to the discussion at hand, but only serve to try and get a doctrinal jab or two in. The score now stands even, what say we give it a rest?