My Big Bang Challenge

Status
Not open for further replies.

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Proverbs 20:1a Wine is a mocker,
Abusing the Bible again. Why didn't you just say that you did not understand that verse.

Clearly, wine is not always looked down upon:

Psalm 104:14-15
New International Version

14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts
Ecclesiastes 9:7
New International Version

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.



3. 1 Timothy 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.


There are others, but I will stop at three. The Bible warns against over doing it. But it clearly allows it at times, and even welcomes it. Once again, it is clear that Jesus made alcoholic wine.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There are others, but I will stop at three. The Bible warns against over doing it. But it clearly allows it at times, and even welcomes it. Once again, it is clear that Jesus made alcoholic wine.

That's a negative.
 
Upvote 0

Shemjaza

Regular Member
Supporter
Apr 17, 2006
6,200
3,821
45
✟917,256.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Greens
This is not about wine throughout the bible or present day wine ads (the info there was quoted from a book on the subject though); it's about the wine Jesus made from water. Some people's interpretation is that Jesus wouldn't have made strong alcoholic wine, the strength of wine and what was called wine appears to have varied then, and so, I respect their interpretation. I have no doubt the wine Noah consumed was alcoholic.
Given the bias and dishonesty in the rest of the article, I'm dubious about any particular references they may make.

So if "wine" is an alcoholic beverage in multiple places in Genesis and despite God or his agents being in contact with them it isn't called out as a problem... how do you determine that the "wine" in John 2 is not in fact wine?


The story in John pretty much tells you that it was alcoholic wine. Do you drink at all?

John 2:10-11
10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


Hmm, looking at the text, it really seems to be referencing "The good stuff" not just a pleasant, refreshing grape juice drink.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Given the bias and dishonesty in the rest of the article, I'm dubious about any particular references they may make.

So if "wine" is an alcoholic beverage in multiple places in Genesis and despite God or his agents being in contact with them it isn't called out as a problem... how do you determine that the "wine" in John 2 is not in fact wine?




John 2:10-11
10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.


Hmm, looking at the text, it really seems to be referencing "The good stuff" not just a pleasant, refreshing grape juice drink.
Right. And you usually put the good stuff out first when people can tell the difference. After people have had a few their ability to appreciate quality declines. By the end they could probably give them Mogan David 20/20 and they would not bat an eye.

That actually dates me quite a bit. And you would have to be American to even know what I was talking about. But many years ago Mogan David, a wine maker, had a product called 20/20. At least one of them 20's was because it was 20% alcohol. It was a fortified wine that mostly winos drank. I once got a bottle from a secret Santa in college and I immediately regifted it. Even as a college student I would not drink it.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hmm, looking at the text, it really seems to be referencing "The good stuff" not just a pleasant, refreshing grape juice drink.
I'm not so sure they were drunk in the first place.

They could have been drinking grape juice (also called wine) all along.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But thats not what the text says.

Yes it is.

It says they were drinking wine.

And you would be [pun intended] hard-pressed to show it was fermented wine.

Even the context should tell you it was unfermented.

After all, why would Jesus make fermented wine to give to those who are already drunk?

Does that sound to you like something Jesus would do?
 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,421
53
✟250,677.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes it is.

It says they were drinking wine.

And you would be [pun intended] hard-pressed to show it was fermented wine.

Even the context should tell you it was unfermented.

After all, why would Jesus make fermented wine to give to those who are already drunk?

Does that sound to you like something Jesus would do?
I can only read the text. My thoughts on Jesus is besides the point.

Its you who claim the bible is to be taken literaly, and the text says wine. Wine in biblical times was alcoholic.

If they had meant grape juice the text would have said so.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,222
3,311
U.S.
✟652,664.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Oh boy… this is a tough one. The first thing I’d like to point out is, don’t you think Jesus’ comment to His mother in John 2:4 is kind of out of place in the context of the whole thing being about literal alcoholic wine? That brings me to a second point, I find it strange that you guys normally consider bible verses as being metaphorical, but here it must be literal. The Bible often uses new wine ‘freshly squeezed/ newly harvested/ unfermented I’d think’ and old wine ‘fermented I’d think’ in symbolic ways. As I said, I respect AV's (and many other Christians) interpretation, but then there is John 2:10, where ‘good’ and ‘worse’ wine is used. Is this in reference to taste only or alcohol content??? It depends on your interpretation I suppose. I’m certainly no expert, and this is why I respect both interpretations, and let it go as a miracle whichever way it was.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,628
12,068
✟230,461.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Oh boy… this is a tough one. The first thing I’d like to point out is, don’t you think Jesus’ comment to His mother in John 2:4 is kind of out of place in the context of the whole thing being about literal alcoholic wine? That brings me to a second point, I find it strange that you guys normally consider bible verses as being metaphorical, but here it must be literal. The Bible often uses new wine ‘freshly squeezed/ newly harvested/ unfermented I’d think’ and old wine ‘fermented I’d think’ in symbolic ways. As I said, I respect AV's (and many other Christians) interpretation, but then there is John 2:10, where ‘good’ and ‘worse’ wine is used. Is this in reference to taste only or alcohol content??? It depends on your interpretation I suppose. I’m certainly no expert, and this is why I respect both interpretations, and let it go as a miracle whichever way it was.
No, you are a bit confused. There are facts about the world that we know. We know that there was no flood. We know that man shares a common ancestor with other apes. And we know that the Earth is spherical. The Bible disagrees with all of these if read literally. Now if you are a "the Bible can't be wrong" Christian one can save the Bible by saying those verses are not to be taken literally.

But when it comes to alcohol some Christians mistakenly only pay attention to the verses condemning it. They ignore the verses that clearly support it. This is a social belief that they have that is wrong. It is not a biblical belief. The verses clearly tell you that the wine that they were drinking was alcoholic.

I asked you earlier if you drank at all and you declined to answer. That is fine. But a nondrinker is not able to legitimately comment on this story since they cannot understand it.
 
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,222
3,311
U.S.
✟652,664.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, you are a bit confused. There are facts about the world that we know. We know that there was no flood. We know that man shares a common ancestor with other apes. And we know that the Earth is spherical. The Bible disagrees with all of these if read literally. Now if you are a "the Bible can't be wrong" Christian one can save the Bible by saying those verses are not to be taken literally.

But when it comes to alcohol some Christians mistakenly only pay attention to the verses condemning it. They ignore the verses that clearly support it. This is a social belief that they have that is wrong. It is not a biblical belief. The verses clearly tell you that the wine that they were drinking was alcoholic.

I asked you earlier if you drank at all and you declined to answer. That is fine. But a nondrinker is not able to legitimately comment on this story since they cannot understand it.
As I said, I respect your interpretation in regard to the alcohol content.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I can only read the text.

So can I.
VirOptimus said:
My thoughts on Jesus is besides the point.

So much for context.
VirOptimus said:
Its you who claim the bible is to be taken literaly,

That's right.
VirOptimus said:
... and the text says wine.

It sure does.
VirOptimus said:
Wine in biblical times was alcoholic.

Which wine? the fermented, or the unfermented?
VirOptimus said:
If they had meant grape juice the text would have said so.

Why?

Should the text have also said "Trinity," instead of "Godhead"?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,666
51,418
Guam
✟4,896,434.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That brings me to a second point, I find it strange that you guys normally consider bible verses as being metaphorical, but here it must be literal.

Vir has a ... fascination ... with my KJVO stance of Scripture.

It goes back a long way, and that explains Post 202 coming out of nowhere.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.