Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Jesus healed people in his humanity, not in his deity. How could he expect us to do it if had to do it in his deity?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

You forgot Matthew 10:5?

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Bobber said:
OK so let's just unpack this a bit.

I actually believe most Christians have great faith, more than they think they have. So did Jesus when they came to him saying Lord increase our faith. They were going down the wrong road of how to even think about faith. He appealed to their way of thinking for a moment and said, "If you had faith (small as you say you have for you're claiming you need it increased) if you have even faith as a grain of mustard seed (something small) you would say to the mulberry tree or the mountain be thou removed and be cast into the sea and it would obey you. Lk 17:6/ Mk 11:23 Your problem he said isn't needing MORE faith but understanding how to release the faith you've got.

Again the measure isn't primarily important. Knowing how to release one's faith to receive is. Keep in mind he did say it's the prayer of faith which get's results. Not begging and pleading but the prayer of faith. God might listen to a pleading cry outside of the prayer of faith but depends on how much light and revelation he's sought to give one. If they keep rejecting there is a method to faith James said, NOT I but James let him not think that he'll receive anything from the Lord. Jm1:7 So isn't God a merciful God? Yes he is but he does insist certain things be done a certain way.

When it comes to actual individuals that's not my business to say why one wasn't healed. There are reasons though and we're called TO TEACH THEM. Paul the Apostle did as well. He asked why are many....MANY weak and sickly among you. 1 Cor 11:30 ...and he went on to explain why. Each one is to do their own personal inventory are you missing it here are you missing it there. That's why Paul told them to make sure they're keeping themselves in check.

Nope you say I can't say. Not your business to get into particulars about an individual case. You are however called to teach the body of Christ the principles he's laid out in the Bible about the subject. If you don't believe at least that do you not believe you are to teach what Paul stated in general way as to why some are weakly and sick among you? Are we to take that out of our teaching package because someone might say are you saying I'm guilty of that? There are others things taught in the scriptures' beside just 1 Cor 11:30 as well. Yes it takes courage to teach them for people gravitate to make critical statements that one is being unlovely but we must provide the full scope of what God says about it if we truly love each other.

I can see that you are a Word of Faith christian.

Generally, WOF has various reasons to justify why someone did not really have the faith to be healed.

The cutest one I have encountered was the one that is used by people like Creflo Dollar, Andrew Wommack that said something like

If you are not healed physically, ask yourself, do you really trust God to heal you? Are you tithing regularly to the church because if you are not, then you are not trusting God in the least use of your faith, how can you be trusting God to heal you? (Luke 16:10-11 Parable of the shrewd manager)

Sermon by Creflo above with the transcript of words Creflo Dollar - Trusting God With Your Finances

"If therefore ye have not been faithful," and can't be trusted," with the unrighteous mammon, "who will commit," who's going to commit to your trust? Who's going to commit to your trust? That's really the question. Who's going to commit to your trust? What's the condition of your trust? Who's gonna commit to your trust? Seriously? Who's going to commit to your trust? You can't even trust God where giving and receiving is concerned. Who's going to commit to your trust miracles, healing, signs and wonders, revelation? Who's going to commit to your trust? You can't even be trusted with giving and receiving.

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Bobber said:
Many debate as to whether God desires to heal.

Here's one thing that needs to be considered and I think it answers various questions.
In Luke 13:14 we read,

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.” The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Many have suggested the only reason Jesus healed was to prove his deity. I wouldn't deny there isn't an aspect of that which isn't true BUT it lets go of the real core reason why Jesus healed. What really is the nature of healing or of staying sick?

Many say Jesus doesn't heal today. That's equivalent to saying we're living in a Sabbath age. The Pharisees said it was wrong for healing to take place on the Sabbath. God doesn't heal on the Sabbath or in this present time. But if God is not permitted to do so because men say so then why is it that they have a right to do so? Jesus wants people to KNOW what is the nature of HEALING. What is healing? It's MERCY! The religious leaders in Christ day didn't get this. They thought healing was fine but really not a big deal and should never go against their religious traditions....NO HEALING on the day or AGE where God isn't supposed to heal! You can see what Jesus called them above for thinking this way. What did he call them? Hypocrites.

He said look if your ox or donkey needs water DON'T YOU provide water for it? Well we see here that the Lord puts healing down as important as giving someone water. Is God not willing to give people water today and let them die of thirst? So really he's saying....HEALING... IS... MERCY! And what do we see today? Religious people are so VERY QUICK to tell someone with physical afflictions where they can get relief from their physical sufferings.

They say try this Doctor, that one or this! So they likewise like the religious leaders of old, are more than willing to provide the mercy of helping a person to become relieved from a physical affliction but NOPE sorry God won't and can't do that today! So what is that really? Isn't that really claiming that MEN are more merciful than God himself! You go and try to help people to get well and you don't think twice about it. You do so for you know it's a good thing to do! So God isn't as good as us?

In this time of covid I fear religious people will have to be accountable for what they didn't tell the people of this generation....that the Lord wants, longs and is more than eager to bring healing today. People either say that Jesus, God cannot bring healing in this sabbath type of age today even though their mercy would allow them to do so or they say if it's the will of God they'll be healed although they'll go right away to a doctor to get his mercy. They KNOW what they need. Mercy. In their way of thinking the Great Physician God might not do it. The human doctor not God, always has the mercy willing to help. Does this seem right?

Thoughts? Opinions?

Under the Old Covenant of Law, God literally promised Israel that if they obey him, they will never fall sick (Deuteronomy 7:15, Exodus 15:26)

Under the promised kingdom of heaven on Earth, no one in Israel will be maim or sick too Isaiah 33:24

But now, we gentiles in the Body of Christ, God does not deal with us according to the Law (Romans 6:14).

So God does not promised healing to us based on any promises, seeing a doctor when you are sick is the standard advice, similar to what Paul would advise Timothy to drink a little wine instead of water.

Saint Steven · Dec 30, 2021

Guojing said:
You forgot Matthew 10:5?

Did you forget 1 Corinthians chapters twelve and fourteen?
Where the Corinthians Jews, or gentiles? Part of the 12 or not?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus healed people in his humanity, not in his deity. How could he expect us to do it if had to do it in his deity?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Did you forget 1 Corinthians chapters twelve and fourteen?
Where the Corinthians Jews, or gentiles? Part of the 12 or not?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus healed people in his humanity, not in his deity. How could he expect us to do it if had to do it in his deity?

Matthew 10:8 NIV
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

When you said, "Jesus healed people in his humanity, not in his deity. How could he expect us to do it if had to do it in his deity?", I suspect you learn that from Bill Johnson, when he said

“While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of His divine powers and became a man (see Phil. 2:7). It’s vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God.

If He did them as God, I would still be impressed. But because He did them as a man yielded to God, I am now unsatisfied with my life, being compelled to follow the example He has given us. Jesus is the only model for us to follow.”

Charisma Magazine

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Did you forget 1 Corinthians chapters twelve and fourteen?
Where the Corinthians Jews, or gentiles? Part of the 12 or not?
.

My view is this

1 Corinthians was written year before Acts 28, before the Holy Spirit declared the entire nation will be blinded (Acts 28:25-28)

After Acts 28
In the book of Philippians 2, which was written after Acts 28, one the prison epistles,

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.

In the book of Timothy, written after Acts 28 and at the end of Paul's life on Earth, he wrote

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Tim 5:23)

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

In all these 3 examples, Paul no longer possess the gift of healing, no more healing handkerchiefs.

Saint Steven · Dec 30, 2021

Guojing said:
In all these 3 examples, Paul no longer possess the gift of healing, no more healing handkerchiefs.

Thanks for your detailed post.
We don't possess the "gifts", the gifts (manifestations of the HS) possess us.

1 Corinthians 7, 12:11 NIV
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ...
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Guojing · Dec 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your detailed post.
We don't possess the "gifts", the gifts (manifestations of the HS) possess us.

1 Corinthians 7, 12:11 NIV
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ...
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

But you do agree that Paul had to rely on physical remedies, and even leave people sick to almost death, in the letters he wrote after Acts 28?

Saint Steven · Dec 30, 2021

Guojing said:
But you do agree that Paul had to rely on physical remedies, and even leave people sick to almost death, in the letters he wrote after Acts 28?

Not sure if "rely" is the right word, but yes. If in some cases healing doesn't come, what can we do? I would call that Plan B, not Plan A.

This aligns with what I wrote. Healing is done by God, not by us. We do not possess the "gifts", the gifts possess us.

Even Jesus had to pray twice for the blind man that saw people that looked like trees walking around. And few were healed in his hometown due to unbelief. We have no guarantees in this business of healing. There were times when it seemed unstoppable. And certainly newsworthy. (written in the NT) Other times, not so much.

If one person in a hundred is healed when we pray for them, is it still worthwhile to pray for the sick? Ask the one who was healed. Even Jesus left the 99 to go after the one.

And Paul was operating under this basic principle.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

Bobber · Dec 30, 2021

swordsman1 said:
If you are getting your theology from such dubious characters, and rejecting commentaries by respected professional bible scholars, then I am not surprised you think the way you do.

And you do know that respected professional bible scholars were exactly what the religious leaders in Christ day claimed to be right? But how about we just move away from who said what among men and just come back to the WORD itself?

So because Jesus never trained as a theologian, we should all be paying attention to the multitudes of unqualified amateurs that plague the internet with their unorthodox ideas?

God willing to heal people is NOT an unorthodox idea. Also Jesus WAS DEEMED as an unqualified amateur. Maybe you shouldn't go by mere appearances but by TRUTH itself. What does the actual WORD say.

Saint Steven · Dec 31, 2021

Bobber said:
And you do know that respected professional bible scholars were exactly what the religious leaders in Christ day claimed to be right? But how about we just move away from who said what among men and just come back to the WORD itself?

God willing to heal people is NOT an unorthodox idea. Also Jesus WAS DEEMED as an unqualified amateur. Maybe you shouldn't go by mere appearances but by TRUTH itself. What does the actual WORD say.

I agree.
The disciples Jesus chose were... "unschooled, ordinary men".

Acts 4:13 NIV
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2021

Bobber said:
And you do know that respected professional bible scholars were exactly what the religious leaders in Christ day claimed to be right?

What the Pharisees claimed to be and what we now know in the light of the Truth are 2 different things.

Bobber said:
God willing to heal people is NOT an unorthodox idea.

That wasn't the unorthodox idea I was referring to. It was the oddbod's unorthodox interpretation of Rom 8:28 on his website which you directed me to.

Bobber said:
Also Jesus WAS DEEMED as an unqualified amateur.

So because Jesus never trained as a theologian, we should all be paying attention to the multitudes of unqualified amateurs that plague the internet with their unorthodox ideas?

Bobber said:
What does the actual WORD say.

I've already shown you what the word says. And the vast majority of respected bible commentaries agree with me.

Bobber · Dec 31, 2021

Guojing said:
But you do agree that Paul had to rely on physical remedies, and even leave people sick to almost death, in the letters he wrote after Acts 28?

What do you mean Paul had to rely on physical remedies? Are you saying because he encouraged one to take a little wine for their stomach issue? 1 Tim 5:23? Sure. I tell people an odd time they might want to take a little bit of pepto bismol too. The human body works certain ways sometimes and needs slight adjustment. Doesn't mean we can't tell people they might just want to apply a few things that are pretty basic to bring an adjustment like even lotions. But that certainly doesn't mean healing isn't for all as found in the covenant. Now about Paul leaving one he wrote about who was sick and had to leave them. I mean what is that proving to you? It does not even come close to saying it wasn't actually God's will to heal such a one.

I've shared this before and Paul taught as well there are reasons why healing may not be manifested. Many are sick and some have died for the reason outlined in 1 Cor 11:30 . Not all are sick for that reason, scriptures' tells other reasons too. And God may not even tell a minister why another isn't healed that's personal between that individual and God BUT, BUT, God has provided a check list in defining potentially why healing aren't taking place. I think the REAL issue is here and let's be sincere.....you and other just DON'T EVEN WANT the check list of things even to be taught as Paul did in 1 Cor 11:30 and other verses other things.

I'm guessing you don't want it because you never want to be one to encourage another to check things. Have you concluded that's insensitive? PAUL DID HOWEVER share these things , and so did James. Some I know want to make it seem that even showing people verses like 1 Cor 11:30 you've done them a great wrong. Those verses aren't put in their to hurt people though BUT....TO HELP THEM. So yes we need to walk in love and show discretion in how we share healing teaching BUT WE MUST SHARE THEM! We do a great injustice to people if we don't, in fact it's even something we'll have to give account of before God. God wants to help them but people do need to be taught some things.

TedT · Dec 31, 2021

Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man ???

GOD's mercy is perfect, man's mercy is corrupt...

Guojing · Dec 31, 2021

Bobber said:
What do you mean Paul had to rely on physical remedies? Are you saying because he encouraged one to take a little wine for their stomach issue? 1 Tim 5:23? Sure. I tell people an odd time they might want to take a little bit of pepto bismol too. The human body works certain ways sometimes and needs slight adjustment. Doesn't mean we can't tell people they might just want to apply a few things that are pretty basic to bring an adjustment like even lotions. But that certainly doesn't mean healing isn't for all as found in the covenant. Now about Paul leaving one he wrote about who was sick and had to leave them. I mean what is that proving to you? It does not even come close to saying it wasn't actually God's will to heal such a one.

I've shared this before and Paul taught as well there are reasons why healing may not be manifested. Many are sick and some have died for the reason outlined in 1 Cor 11:30 . Not all are sick for that reason, scriptures' tells other reasons too. And God may not even tell a minister why another isn't healed that's personal between that individual and God BUT, BUT, God has provided a check list in defining potentially why healing aren't taking place. I think the REAL issue is here and let's be sincere.....you and other just DON'T EVEN WANT the check list of things even to be taught as Paul did in 1 Cor 11:30 and other verses other things.

I'm guessing you don't want it because you never want to be one to encourage another to check things. Have you concluded that's insensitive? PAUL DID HOWEVER share these things , and so did James. Some I know want to make it seem that even showing people verses like 1 Cor 11:30 you've done them a great wrong. Those verses aren't put in their to hurt people though BUT....TO HELP THEM. So yes we need to walk in love and show discretion in how we share healing teaching BUT WE MUST SHARE THEM! We do a great injustice to people if we don't, in fact it's even something we'll have to give account of before God. God wants to help them but people do need to be taught some things.

There was a time that Paul had the gift of healing, with his healing hankerchiefs.

After Acts 28, however, Paul wrote a few times that he no longer could rely on that.

Bobber · Jan 3, 2022

Guojing said:
There was a time that Paul had the gift of healing, with his healing hankerchiefs.

After Acts 28, however, Paul wrote a few times that he no longer could rely on that.

Chapter and verse please. Don't be vague.

Guojing · Jan 3, 2022

Bobber said:
Chapter and verse please. Don't be vague.

Its already on this thread

Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man

Saint Steven · Jan 3, 2022

Guojing said:
After Acts 28, however, Paul wrote a few times that he no longer could rely on that.

I don't think we can claim that Paul "wrote" that "he no longer could rely on" supernatural healing. He mentioned other situations where common remedies were used, but wasn't discounting supernatural healing from my perspective.

Bobber · Jan 3, 2022

Guojing said:
After Acts 28
In the book of Philippians 2, which was written after Acts 28, one the prison epistles,

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.

27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

So what's your issue with this. Epaphroditus was sick and yet God healed him.

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Tim 5:23)

So again what's your problem with this? I believe God wants to heal but that doesn't mean I wouldn't encourage someone to do a little something in the physical as well that might make a proper adjustment. It'd be like me telling somebody don't hesitate to take a little bit of petmo bismo if your stomach is upset.

2 Timothy 4:20
Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

We've already discussed this. First we don't know the personal exact reason of why someone is not healed that's between them and God but God has given us a check list to teach universally of why some or many are not healed. There can be reasons why but that's still not a sign God doesn't want them healed. Take for example 1 Cor 11:30 where Paul clearly stated many are weak and sick among you and some have even died for there were things about the body of Christ they were not discerning and in other scriptures others things are mentioned.

Because Trophimus wasn't healed, and we don't even know he wasn't healed even the next day or next week for that matter, but even if he wasn't it doesn't prove anything that God didn't want to heal him. And because the people of Corinth, some weak and some died early, and he even said why, doesn't justify to say God wanted them, or some of them dying early or that it wasn't possible for them to be healed if the made proper adjustments. But now correct me if I'm wrong. But you don't REALLY want any teachings like Paul did of giving warnings about why healing may not come to an individual. But Paul did preach things like 1 Cor 11:30. To you it seems you'd take that as being insensitive to people or the last thing they need to hear are possible reasons taught why their sick. Paul wanted them however to rise and receive God's goodness but they can't do that if they have to know some things.

Guojing · Jan 3, 2022

Bobber said:
So what's your issue with this. Epaphroditus was sick and yet God healed him.

So again what's your problem with this? I believe God wants to heal but that doesn't mean I wouldn't encourage someone to do a little something in the physical as well that might make a proper adjustment. It'd be like me telling somebody don't hesitate to take a little bit of petmo bismo if your stomach is upset.

We've already discussed this. First we don't know the personal exact reason of why someone is not healed that's between them and God but God has given us a check list to teach universally of why some or many are not healed. There can be reasons why but that's still not a sign God doesn't want them healed. Take for example 1 Cor 11:30 where Paul clearly stated many are weak and sick among you and some have even died for there were things about the body of Christ they were not discerning and in other scriptures others things are mentioned.

Because Trophimus wasn't healed, and we don't even know he wasn't healed even the next day or next week for that matter, but even if he wasn't it doesn't prove anything that God didn't want to heal him. And because the people of Corinth, some weak and some died early, and he even said why, doesn't justify to say God wanted them, or some of them dying early or that it wasn't possible for them to be healed if the made proper adjustments. But now correct me if I'm wrong. But you don't REALLY want any teachings like Paul did of giving warnings about why healing may not come to an individual. But Paul did preach things like 1 Cor 11:30. To you it seems you'd take that as being insensitive to people or the last thing they need to hear are possible reasons taught why their sick. Paul wanted them however to rise and receive God's goodness but they can't do that if they have to know some things.

Well you asked me for scripture that indicate Paul could no longer heal at will after Acts 28 and I have provided them.

If you want to interpret them in a manner that fits your doctrine, that is up to you.

Strange that so many people misread Philippians 2 and claimed "Epaphroditus was sick and yet God healed him."

Read properly, Paul was careful not to write that, he said God had mercy on him, he did not die.

He had to send him more carefully (KJV) after that. That fellow has not recovered yet.

Just to confirm, are you indeed someone who attends a Word of Faith church regularly?

Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man

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