Which Law Paul?

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Of course. I find it to be unfortunate that Paul didn't include the foremost precept in this list, the Shema.

Since all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), I do not find anything about it to be "unfortunate" (not to mention I don't believe in "fortune"), and I am certainly in no position to improve on God's word.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (CLV)

4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart. 7 Repeat them to your sons, and speak of them when you sit in your house, when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you arise. 8 Tie them for a sign on your hand, and they will come to be for the brow bands between your eyes;" 9 Write them on the jambs of your house and on your gates.

Matthew 22:36-38, King James Version (KJV)
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יהוה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יהוה אֶחָד - Sh'ma Yisra'el YHWH Eloheinu YHWH Ehad

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
I'm convinced of the whole counsel of Paul which does not set Scripture against itself.

The whole counsel of Paul! Wow! You seem very knowledgeable concerning Paul.

This is very good news. I believe that all scripture is in harmony. If there seems to be a discrepancy; I chalk it up to my misunderstanding. I look forward to your helping me out with this difficult passage.

Yahshua said this in Revelation:

(CLV) Re 2:14
But I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a snare before the sons of Israel, to be eating idol sacrifices, and to commit prostitution.

Paul can be difficult to understand. What in the world is Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 8?

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
Since all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), I do not find anything about it to be "unfortunate" (not to mention I don't believe in "fortune"), and I am certainly in no position to improve on God's word.

Do you realize that when Paul wrote this, that the NT was not yet considered to be scripture? He was speaking of the Torah and the Prophets.

Hank77 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Where in Acts 21 can we find the word θυσιαν?

Acts 7:41 translated as sacrifice.

Greek Concordance: θυσίαν (thysian) -- 11 Occurrences

Hank77 · Jan 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
In Acts 21 they tell Paul that there is a distinction between what Jews were being commanded vs Gentiles.

Acts 21:“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Notice that they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.

Hebrews 10 didn't say they had ended as yet when Paul was behaving as a Jew to convince the Jews of the gospel and as a Gentile to convince the Gentiles. It says they were soon to be obsolete and within 40 yrs. this became a fulfillment of prophecy.

The temple was destroyed and the Jewish people scattered in 70 AD. Sacrifices, tithes, etc. could no longer be given as per Moses' law.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

Soyeong said:
Sure, it could be worth considering whether it refers to a different law than the Law of God or the law of sin, however, in Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it so the Law of Moses is the Law of God. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so the Law of God in Romans 7:21-25 is referring to the Law of Moses. Furthermore, Paul delighting in obeying the Law of Moses is consistent with David repeatedly saying throughout the Psalms that he delighted in obeying the Law of Moses.

On the other hand, it wouldn't make sense to interpret Romans 7:4 as referring to the Law of Moses. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to set us free from the Law of Moses, but to redeem us from all lawlessness, so Romans 7:4 is consistent with dying to the law of sin through the body of Christ. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Law of Moses, so obedience to the Law of Moses is the way to be unified with Christ, and it would be contradictory to need to die to the Law of Moses in order to be unified with Christ. Furthermore, the Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, and it would be contradictory to need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him.

Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, and that there was a law of sin that was working within him members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Law of God is the opposite of the law of sin,

Nope. . .boot-strapping (making the merely associative to be completely equivalent),
common methodology both in Jewish thinking and in dispensationalism.
The "law of God" in Romans 7:4 is the written code, and
"the law of my mind" in Romans 7:21-25 is an inner force/desire within Paul.

In Paul's usage in Romans 7:21-25, the "law of sin" and "the law of my mind" are forces operating within him toward either sin or the law of God.
The "law of his mind" is a force drawing him to the law of God, it is not the law of God,
but in Romans 7:4 it is the law of God; i.e., the written code..

and I have not be treating them as the same law. On the contrary, in Romans 7:7, Paul said the the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, while a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, so Romans 7:5 can't be referring the Law of God, but rather matches with Paul's description of the law of sin, and by interpreting Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God, she was treating it as being the same as the law of sin.

False hermeneutic. . .it's no about "matching" (associative equivalency; i.e., boot-strapping),
it's about context.

"All those who rely on observing the law are under a curse (death)." (Galatians 3:10)
The law of God is death because we cannot observe it according to God's requirements.
And because it is death does not mean it is not good.
Justice can be death, but justice is still good.

I have no problem with what Paul said, just with your unjustified interpretation of it. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of Christ,

Precisely. . .and the law of Christ is Matthew 22:37-40, which fulfills the whole law "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10), is this law of God in the New Covenant.

So when referring to the "law of God," make clear that you are referring to the New Covenant law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40) which is the law of God and fulfills all the law of God; i.e., "and any other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10),
and stop confounding the Old Covenant Mosaic law which kills those under it (Galatians 3:10) with the New Covenant law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-40) which gives life and liberty, and is enabled by the Holy Spirit.

after all Christ is God, so the Law of Moses is also the Law of God and the Law of Christ. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses both by word and by example, so again that is the Law of Christ.

More confounding and misuse of Christ's NT "law of God" to put us back under the Mosaic OT "law of God," when Christ's NT law of God was given to free us from the Mosaic OT law of God (Galatians 5:1), which cursed us (Galatians 3:10).

Surely this can't be that hard to keep straight.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
The whole counsel of Paul! Wow! You seem very knowledgeable concerning Paul.

This is very good news. I believe that all scripture is in harmony. If there seems to be a discrepancy; I chalk it up to my misunderstanding.
I look forward to your helping me out with this difficult passage.

Yahshua said this in Revelation:

Thanks.

However, I see prophecy as figurative, so prophecy will have to be excluded from anything I examine as didactical.

(CLV) Re 2:14
But I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a snare before the sons of Israel, to be eating idol sacrifices, and to commit prostitution.
Paul can be difficult to understand. What in the world is Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 8?

Please state to what you are referring if you wish me to examine it,

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Do you realize that when Paul wrote this, that the NT was not yet considered to be scripture? He was speaking of the Torah and the Prophets.

I realize there is evidence in the NT that NT writings were beginning to be seen as Scripture and as authoritative.

Peter links Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures" in 2 Peter 3:16.

In 1 Timothy 5:18, Paul quotes a phrase found only in Luke 10:7 as equal in authority to the OT Scriptures (Deuteronomy 25:4).

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2022

Notice that in Acts 21 -- they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.(From God's POV)

Heb 10:4-12

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Hank77 said:
Hebrews 10 didn't say they had ended as yet when Paul was behaving as a Jew to convince the Jews of the gospel and as a Gentile to convince the Gentiles. It says they were soon to be obsolete

It looks to me like the text is saying that the cross is what ended it from God's POV.

He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

The text says it is by the "once for all time" offering of the body of Christ. It does not say that it is by the "once for all time destruction of Jerusalem" or "destruction of the temple". The significance of the animal sacrifices seems to be ended at the cross -- even though the physical inability to continue those animal sacrifices does not end until 70 A.D.

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
In Acts 21 they tell Paul that there is a distinction between what Jews were being commanded vs Gentiles.

Acts 21:“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Notice that they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.(From God's POV)

Heb 10:4-12

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

HARK! said:

Jew? What is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until about the Year 1500 AD.

Click to expand...

That is the NASB Bible translation for Acs 21:21,25

However you wish to translate the greek - it is clear that two groups of believers in Christ are being mentioned - one called Jews and the other Gentile - or whatever name you wish to use there for the same idea in Acts 21.

HARK! said:

Which two groups do you suppose that Paul is speaking of?

Click to expand...

It's the same discussion they had just had in Act 15.

It looks a lot like the discussion you see in Galatians.

They leave Israel and encounter a lot of gentiles among the Romans and Greeks. And when they convert them -- presto that Acts 15 issue shows up and that is what is being referred to in Acts 26:21,25

HARK! said:
Again I already responded to this.

Which of those five groups do you suppose that these two groups would best fit?

I already responded to that in the post above -- it is the same "gentile" group as in Acts 15. And there Peter says it is a gentile such as the Roman Centurion - Cornelius, except in his case he is not a pagan gentile at the time he converts to Christianity..

Acts 15:
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had a heated argument and debate with them, the brothers determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, after being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and they were bringing great joy to all the brothers and sisters.

Gentiles converted straight to Christianity

4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were received by the church, the apostles, and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to keep the Law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating all the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles.

13 After they stopped speaking, James responded, saying, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has described how God first concerned Himself about taking a people for His name from among the Gentiles.

Gentiles that convert directly to Christianity (of which we know there are many many millions, which includes nearly everyone here on CF, so they are not hard to find)

BobRyan · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Do you realize that when Paul wrote this, that the NT was not yet considered to be scripture? He was speaking of the Torah and the Prophets.

Agreed - but Paul does say his teaching was being included and received as the "Word of God" -- but I agree that 2 Tim 3 is a reference to the OT text primarily since Paul says Timothy had been taught from it from childhood and so also Timothy's grandmother.

Hank77 · Jan 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
It looks to me like the text is saying that the cross is what ended it from God's POV.

I agree, but not from the view of the Jews, and God, in His mercy, appears to have given them a time, approx. 40 yrs., to gain an understanding of the new covenant and to give up the old covenant.
The unsaved Jews were still using the temple and practicing Judaism. Paul says clearing that he became a Jew in order to get their ear to hear the gospel, he did the same with the Gentiles.
Practicing true Judaism, Mosaic law/old covenant, ended when the temple was destroyed the Jews scattered.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
And the Spirit does make us righteous.
Now you're getting it.

So why would we be under the Spirit and not the law?

Now I'm getting it?

How do you equate being under the spirit as negating being under the law?

Romans 8 (CLV)
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

How can I trust your answers to the title of this thread; when I can't trust your understanding of Paul's letters.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Hank77 said:
Acts 7:41 translated as sacrifice.

Greek Concordance: θυσίαν (thysian) -- 11 Occurrences

Acts Chapter 7 is not part of Acts Chapter 21 in any of the Bibles that I have read; but thanks for pointing that out. I'll be careful to keep an eye out for those mixed up Bibles.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Now I'm getting it?

How do you equate being under the spirit as negating being under the law?

The law is death (Galatians 3:10), the Spirit is life.

Romans 8 (CLV)
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.
How can I trust your answers to the title of this thread; when I can't trust your understanding of Paul's letters.

Please Biblically demonstrate my misunderstanding in post #40.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
The law is death (Galatians 3:10), the Spirit is life.

I am not really a part of this thread or discussion but according to the scriptures, Gods' law is not death. Paul and Galatians 3:10 say and teach nowhere that the law is death. You're reading that into the scriptures. According to the scriptures, sin is death *Romans 6:23 not the law. All the law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 while Romans 7:12-13 says wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Take Care.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
Thanks.

However, I see prophecy as figurative, so prophecy will have to be excluded from anything I examine as didactical.

Revelation 2 is specifically addressing the Church at Ephesus this was a Church under Paul's teachings until they all turned away from him.

Ephesus was the Capital of Asia.

(CLV) 2Ti 1:15
Of this you are aware, that all those in the province of Asia were turned from me, of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Did they turn from him; because he was telling them that they could no longer eat meat sacrificed to idols?

Clare73 said:
Please state to what you are referring if you wish me to examine it,

1 Corinthians 8 is only 13 verses long. Verse 1 seems to reveal the subject of this chapter.

Since it's such a short chapter; maybe you can walk me through, verse by verse to explain what in the world Paul is talking about here; and then harmonize it with what Yahshua said to the Church at Ephesus in Revelation 2.

I look forward to your scholarly dissection.

(CLV) 1Co 8:1
Now concerning the idol sacrifices: We are aware that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, yet love builds up.

(CLV) 1Co 8:2
If anyone is presuming to know anything, he knew not as yet according as he must know.

(CLV) 1Co 8:3
Now if anyone is loving God, this one is known by Him.

(CLV) 1Co 8:4
Then, concerning the feeding on the idol sacrifices: We are aware that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God except One.

(CLV) 1Co 8:5
For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords,

(CLV) 1Co 8:6
nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.

(CLV) 1Co 8:7
But not in all is there this knowledge. Now some, used hitherto to the idol, are eating of it as an idol sacrifice, and their conscience, being weak, is being polluted.

(CLV) 1Co 8:8
Now food will not give us a standing with God, neither, if we should not be eating are we in want, nor if we should be eating are we cloyed.

(CLV) 1Co 8:9
Now |beware lest somehow this right of yours may become a stumbling block to the weak.

(CLV) 1Co 8:10
For if anyone should be seeing you, who |has knowledge, lying down in an idol's shrine, will not the conscience of him who |is weak be |inured to the eating of the idol sacrifices?

(CLV) 1Co 8:11
For the weak one is perishing also by your knowledge; the brother because of whom Christ died.

(CLV) 1Co 8:12
Now in thus sinning against brethren, and beating their weak conscience, you are sinning against Christ.

(CLV) 1Co 8:13
Wherefore, if food is snaring my brother, I may under no circumstances be eating meat for the eon, lest I should be snaring my brother.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
Please Biblically demonstrate my misunderstanding in post #40.

Thank you for asking.

You pit the Spirit against the Law; but Paul says the Law is of the Spirit.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
I am not really a part of this thread or discussion but according to the scriptures, Gods' law is not death. Paul and Galatians 3:10 say and teach nowhere that the law is death. You're reading that into the scriptures. According to the scriptures, sin is death *Romans 6:23 not the law. All the law does is give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7.

Nope. . ."All who rely on observing the law are under a curse (eternal death)." (Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:13)
The law resulted in eternal death, not life.
The law brought wrath (Romans 4:15).

Romans 7:12-13 says wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

"The law is death" is short version for: "the curse of the law is death," which curse all those who relied on observing the law were under "(Galatians 3:10), from which curse Jesus redeemed us (Galatians 3:13).

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
The law is death (Galatians 3:10)

Which law?

Romans 8 (CLV)
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

Which Law Paul?

Blood-bought

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

שמע

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

שמע

שמע

Blood-bought

שמע

Similar threads