Jesus says I and the Father are one yet we have John 14:28

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

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Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

"One" can be a singularity, or it can just mean "united." Depends on the context. When a man in joined to his wife, they become one flesh. They don't become a "single" flesh obviously. They become "united" flesh. Typically, when a plural is "one" it simply means united, not a singularity.

Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, God the Father is greater. The Father and Son are united as one. There is no division between them.

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

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"One" can be used in various ways. Given 14:28 it certainly doesn't mean they are literally identical. Indeed even 10:30 can't mean that:

"29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.
"31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?”

Obviously this passage doesn't see Jesus as the same person as the Father. (This is not meant to rule out the Trinity, of course.) I think the most natural understanding of the context would be one in purpose, mission, etc.

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

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In the book of Genesis _ let us create man in our image _ man has become as one of us. Plural
There are several places in scripture where Jesus separates himself from the God the Father, being a totally unique and a separate entity, but one with the Father.
Most are written in link below
What Does the Bible Say About How Many Times Does Jesus Call God Father?

One with the Father because he is directly of the Father, Jesus was not created. As written in John 1: 1-2. He is the Word of God in physical form.
As he said the Father is spirit and "no man has seen him."
As he also said if you have seen the Son you've seen the Father (but not physically, actually, visually, seeing the Father.)
Jesus is God in the Old Testament _ it was not the Father who man call and talk to.
Notice how David so accurately put it _ Psalms 110:1 and the Lord said unto my Lord. Notice how he said the Lord who is God the Father and my Lord who is Yeshua /Jesus, so named as he walked the Earth in the flesh.
John 20:28 _ Notice how Thomas said my Lord - my God.

Greater because the Father is the source. As I like to say, he spoke himself into physical form and that physical form formed / created all things visible.

The "kenosis of Christ" could explain this.
Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divine rights and took on the role of a servant, ultimately so He could die for our sins.


Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The degree to which He emptied Himself is a subject long debated.

SavedByGrace3 said:

The "kenosis of Christ" could explain this.
Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divine rights and took on the role of a servant, ultimately so He could die for our sins.
Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

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The degree to which He emptied Himself is a subject long debated.

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The NT teaches that he laid aside not his deity, but his glory (John 17:5) and submitted to the humiliation of becoming man (2 Corinthians 8:9) and servant (Matthew 20:28), instead of the King of Glory (Psalms 24:8).

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

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Lord Jesus is God The Son, Emmanuel "God with us", and is from Eternity as God The Son; He only existed in a flesh body like us when He was conceived by The Holy Spirit in Mary's womb. So that John 14:28 reference ought to be easy to figure out why it does NOT conflict with His saying He and The Father are One.

(Why does it seem the orthodox Jews have such a problem with this fact about Jesus of Nazareth being "God with us" like Matthew 1:23 says, when the prophet Isaiah showed about Jesus being born of a virgin, and His name as "Immanuel", which means 'God with us'?)

Davy said:

Lord Jesus is God The Son, Emmanuel "God with us", and is from Eternity as God The Son; He only existed in a flesh body like us when He was conceived by The Holy Spirit in Mary's womb. So that John 14:28 reference ought to be easy to figure out why it does NOT conflict with His saying He and The Father are One.

(Why does it seem the orthodox Jews have such a problem with this fact about Jesus of Nazareth being "God with us" like Matthew 1:23 says, when the prophet Isaiah showed about Jesus being born of a virgin, and His name as "Immanuel", which means 'God with us'?)

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I have looked for evidence in the word that validates the concept that Jesus was "God the Son" from eternity... that is before creation. I can find that the Word was in God from eternity, but my understanding is that the Word came out of God at which time God became the Father and the Word became the Son. Perhaps someone can show when it specifically that Jesus was the Son of God from Eternity, that is before creation.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I have looked for evidence in the word that validates the concept that Jesus was "God the Son" from eternity... that is before creation. I can find that the Word was in God from eternity, but my understanding is that the Word came out of God at which time God became the Father and the Word became the Son. Perhaps someone can show when it specifically that Jesus was God from Eternity, that is before creation.

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I don't know what religion you're wrapped up in, but it's not Christianity, otherwise you would have easily know about the following...

Rev 1:5-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Rev 22:12-13
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
KJV

Sorry but I have to say it; you are without excuse to not believe those Scriptures about Lord Jesus as God Almighty.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I have looked for evidence in the word that validates the concept that Jesus was "God the Son" from eternity... that is before creation. I can find that the Word was in God from eternity,

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The Word was not only in God from eternity, he was also with God from eternity, and also was God from eternity. Is that not in your Bible (John 1:1)?

but my understanding is that the Word came out of God at which time God became the Father and the Word became the Son. Perhaps someone can show when it specifically that Jesus was God from Eternity, that is before creation.

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It's right there in John 1:1, straight out of the Greek.

John opens his gospel at the beginning of time in the past tense.
The Word, Jesus, was "with God" in the past before time, and the Word "was God" in the past before time.
They were already in existence in the beginning (of time).
And then in time, the Word became flesh, in Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14).

It couldn't be stated any more clearly.

Clare73 said:

The Word was not only in God from eternity, he was also with God from eternity, and also was God from eternity. Is that not in your Bible (John 1:1)?
It's right there in John 1:1.
John opens his gospel at the beginning of time in the past tense.
The Word, Jesus, was "with God" in the past before time, and the Word "was God" in the past before time.
They were already in existence in the beginning (of time).
And then in time, the Word became flesh, in Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14)
It couldn't be stated any more clear.

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Thanks... of course I knew all that and agree. I am looking for evidence that states Jesus and the Father existed in that identity from eternity. Not looking for a fight... just looking for evidence.

Davy said:

I don't know what religion you're wrapped up in, but it's not Christianity, otherwise you would have easily know about the following...

Rev 1:5-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Rev 22:12-13
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
KJV

Sorry but I have to say it; you are without excuse to not believe those Scriptures about Lord Jesus as God Almighty.

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As I told the other poster... I know all of this and agree.
I am looking for evidence that Jesus existed in the role of the Son from eternity. We know He existed as the Word.

SavedByGrace3 said:

As I told the other poster... I know all of this and agree.
I am looking for evidence that Jesus existed in the role of the Son from eternity. We know He existed as the Word.

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Then you haven't really understood The Godhead of Three Persons per the Book of Hebrews. Jesus is the "express image of His person". That means you cannot just try and separate The Son from The Father like you're trying to do. Have you ever looked in Isaiah where Jesus is pointed to as "Immanuel", and also called "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father"?

.

SavedByGrace3 said:

As I told the other poster... I know all of this and agree.
I am looking for evidence that Jesus existed in the role of the Son from eternity. We know He existed as the Word.

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Also, per Hebrews 7, Jesus was the Melchizedek who met Abraham and offered Abraham "bread and wine" (Genesis 14). That name means, "King of Peace" per the Scriptures. It points to Jesus as King before He was born in the flesh. So it's pointing directly to Christ as GOD, just as those other Scriptures I quoted do.

Even the name Jesus in the Greek (Iesous) is from Hebrew Yeshua which means 'salvation of Yahaveh'. So even when saying His name 'Jesus' you cannot get away from connection with The Father as The Saviour (Isaiah 43:3, Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21).

Davy said:

Also, per Hebrews 7, Jesus was the Melchizedek who met Abraham and offered Abraham "bread and wine" (Genesis 14). That name means, "King of Peace" per the Scriptures. It points to Jesus as King before He was born in the flesh. So it's pointing directly to Christ as GOD, just as those other Scriptures I quoted do.

Even the name Jesus in the Greek (Iesous) is from Hebrew Yeshua which means 'salvation of Yahaveh'. So even when saying His name 'Jesus' you cannot get away from connection with The Father as The Saviour (Isaiah 43:3, Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21).

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Thanks again... nobody was questioning the divinity of Jesus.
Have a good day...

SavedByGrace3 said:

Ya'll need to calm down. No wonder people are fleeing CF. Ask a simple question and you get attacked left and right....

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That's why it's important to be careful how you word your ideas.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Thanks... of course I knew all that and agree. I am looking for evidence that states Jesus and the Father existed in that identity from eternity. Not looking for a fight... just looking for evidence.

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Why do you call it "fight?"
Evidence was presented to you.

Your evidence is John 1:1, that is precisely what it states.

That Jesus and the Father existed in that identity from eternity is self-evident in John 1:1.
If the Word was God before (in eternity), and the Word became flesh (in time) in the Son of God, Jesus, then the Word didn't go from "God" in eternity to "Son of God" in time, he had to always be Son of God, who was with God and is God (John 1:1).

In addition, there is the testimony in time of Jesus himself, others, and even demons (who know where the spiritual power is) in Matthew 26:63-64, Luke 1:35; John 5:25, John 1:34; John 20:31; Matthew 16:16, John 1:49; John 11:27; Matthew 27:54, Matthew 4:3, Matthew 14:33, Mark 3:11, to give a few.

Clare73 said:

Why do you call it "fight?"
Evidence was presented to you.

Your evidence is John 1:1, that is precisely what it states.

There is also Matthew 26:63-64, Luke 1:35; John 5:25, John 1:34; John 20:31; Matthew 16:16, John 1:49; John 11:27; Matthew 27:54, Matthew 4:3, Matthew 14:33, Mark 3:11, to name a few.

If the Word was God before eternity, and the Word became flesh in time in Jesus, the Son of God, then the Word, didn't just become the Son of God in time, he had to always be Son of God.

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Thank you for your response...

SavedByGrace3 said:

The "kenosis of Christ" could explain this.
Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divine rights and took on the role of a servant, ultimately so He could die for our sins.


Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The degree to which He emptied Himself is a subject long debated.

Click to expand...

SavedByGrace3 said:

The "kenosis of Christ" could explain this.
Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divine rights and took on the role of a servant, ultimately so He could die for our sins.

Click to expand...

Jesus did not empty himself of any of His divine attributes, God is immutable. Jesus simply limited the use of those attributes, much like a man wrestling with his son does not use his full strength, he does not give up his strength it is still there.

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

Click to expand...

As man, Jesus is unmistakably inferior to the Father.

The Father and Jesus are one (as in 10.30) in exercising the same Divine kingship - the Father is greater (as in 14.28) because the Davidic Kingship of Jesus, which Jesus exercises as "son of man" (see Dan. 7.13-14) comes from the Father. A recurring theme in the NT is the dependence of Jesus upon His Father.

See Psalm 72 on the universal dominion of the son of David:

May he rule from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 May the desert tribes bow before him
and his enemies lick the dust.
10 May the kings of Tarshish and of distant shores
bring tribute to him.
May the kings of Sheba and Seba
present him gifts.
11 May all kings bow down to him
and all nations serve him.

In St Matthew 2, they "bring Him tribute", and "present gifts to Him":

9 After they [the Magi] had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

"bowed down" is too weak - the Greek says "having fallen down". "worshipped him" could equally well be translated "paid homage to Him"; "worshipped" tends to be understood as referring to religious worship, but the Greek word can be used both for religious worship, and for the worship which is the paying of homage to a king by a subject. ISTM that St Matthew may well intend both meanings together.

The rich gifts rendered to Jesus also recall the gifts & tribute to Solomon, than whom Jesus in St Matthew is greater/better.

The Danielic son of man has the same universal dominion:

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Rev 5.9 applies the passage in Dan 7 to the Lamb:

8When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.9And they sang a new song:

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,
because You were slain,
and by Your blood You purchased for God
those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.10You have made them to be a kingdom
and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign uponb the earth.”

In addition, Jesus exercises His Authority by serving the Disciples.

St John says a good deal about the Kingship of Jesus, which is why I think that Kingship is the clue to this difficulty.