How are you saved?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That's not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

A_Thinker said:

The difference is that demons don't desire to live in God's kingdom. No demon will submit to have God save them.

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Amen! In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

sandman said:

Think in terms of your earthly Dad … you have his seed (DNA) within you …that cannot be changed no matter what you do.

But if you are disobedient, it might cause you to be in broken fellowship with your dad … but when you ask for forgiveness … and he forgives you ... you are back in good graces with him.

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Worth repeating ...

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Why do you have to go to confession to be restored? Can’t you ask God for forgiveness yourself? I’m not trying to attack your beliefs, really I just want answers

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You can ask God for forgiveness yourself; but the Catholics in the sacrament of confession formally preserved something of great value that I think is best not overlooked

20 For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.

The priest is there as a physical proxy for Christ; he is not doing the forgiveness and reconciliation, but is there to go through it with you. Of course the born again believer says "Christ dwells within me". I assure you, so does the priest! He is the one who has been serving the Eucharist and if I had to sum up the faith and purpose of the Catholic tradition in one curt but deliberately meaningful phrase it might be this -

"you are what you eat".
John 6:53-58

If he is a faithful priest, Christ is not Less present because of his presence, but More.

Confession and repentance have always been biblical

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

In much the same way - if a man were to go on long journey with a compass, and checked it every day and adjusted his course, he would be sure to get there.

In much the same way - if a man were to go on a long journey with a compass in his pocket, and just kept it there, or disagreed with it and felt ashamed every time he looked at it at how far off course he was, said "forgive me Compass" and just pocketed it again, he would not.

Of COURSE Christ forgives! The Compass will NEVER stop pointing True North! But Christ forgives to a PURPOSE. To see you home.

It's best to take these kinds of journeys with friends.

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized. There seems to be verses in the Bible that agree with this. I studied it a little bit more, and - correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like Catholics also think that there are certain sins that you can’t commit or else you don’t go to heaven? I’ve only ever heard that you have to believe in Jesus, and then you are saved, and I never thought that anyone could think differently. Now I understand that people DO think differently, so I was wondering- according to your denomination, what must you do to be saved? What Bible verses back up your viewpoint? I’m specifically asking because I have younger siblings that my parents won’t let get baptized until they act more like Christians. Would they make it into Heaven?

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Well in the Bible, it doesn’t specify a specific age because God looks on the heart and let’s face it, children mature in their understanding of right and wrong at different ages.

We do not know who will be in heaven or not .... that is up to the Lord in all cases.

Baptism is not a requirement for heaven. It is a symbol of faith and should be taken when they have understanding of what it means.

By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church.

Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 2:38; 16:30-33; 22:16; Rom. 6:1-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12, 13.)

Whatever the case may be, we can rest assured that God will do what is just and loving and fair for all people .... baptized or not.

Trust and rest in Him. Amen.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

I don't understand the point you are making. Why would I stay 10 feet away from Christ?

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You said:
You are saved by grace alone, not by some deed you do or not do. The Holy Spirit acts as a seal, and the Holy Spirits seals who He wants as stated in John 3.
The only outward motion that occurs in baptism is that you walk or are carried to the water, where someone else (not you) immerses you in it in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
This is no different than if you walked or were carried to Christ while he was on earth so that he might lay his hands on you.

@fhansen
@Fenwick
@Lost4words
@Michie
@chevyontheriver
@MariaChristi
@anna ~ grace
Can you help @Vesper_Jaye✝️ out please?

Thank you

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized. There seems to be verses in the Bible that agree with this. I studied it a little bit more, and - correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like Catholics also think that there are certain sins that you can’t commit or else you don’t go to heaven? I’ve only ever heard that you have to believe in Jesus, and then you are saved, and I never thought that anyone could think differently. Now I understand that people DO think differently, so I was wondering- according to your denomination, what must you do to be saved? What Bible verses back up your viewpoint? I’m specifically asking because I have younger siblings that my parents won’t let get baptized until they act more like Christians. Would they make it into Heaven?

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Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

I’ve tried to read articles about mortal sin, but it confuses me, too.

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Around the year 1054AD, the Catholic churches split. The Roman church headed by the pope became the Roman Catholic Church; the others stayed as they were without it. Roughly, these are the Eastern Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox were frontline against Islam in the East and later Communism in the Russian lands, which as you can imagine, was not a great place to be... unless you were there to sacrifice yourself for someone else. Which, I'm told, is the kind of thing Christ sometimes does.

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

Byzantine Empire - Wikipedia

A lot of the categorization - mortal, venial etc developed in western Catholicism post schism as did purgatory; this did not happen (at least to the same formalization of degree) on the Eastern side. The Catholic churches in general are centered around the Eucharist; Communion is 'the heartbeat' of the Christ within the Church as it were.

The weekly mass or liturgy is in essence one prayer, standing on this

13 And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son

And they are asking that they may serve the body and of blood of Christ spiritually in the Eucharist to those that partake. That's how they are using it. Pretty powerful. But if you are going to ask for something for someone, it's a good ask. Every mass, at every Catholic church, every week, going back close to 2000 years. It's probably one of the oldest and most powerful prayers that have ever been prayed.

1 Cor 11:23-32

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

Because what they are administering is so sacred (and you would know how sacred if you were to take a close look at the prayers being prayed over it), then the examination of self is important. The believers are educated, members are confirmed, the framework for self examination (Confession) is established in order that those who partake partake worthily because they are, in essence, "meeting Christ" in the cup. The pieces of what they are doing (each individual sacrament) "make sense" when you understand what they are doing as a whole and how they were meant to work together. And (ideally) the Church is providing the framework wherein that can happen safely and be carried forward to others.

Of course, history is less than ideal.
"well, we had better Categorize all these things - mortal, venial" lol.
That's the absolute least of it.

I completely understand Luther's thesis by the time he nailed it to the door
What was behind the door had changed in large part
But I do feel that people should know
What it was meant
(and sometimes still means)
To be

Thatgirloncfforums said:

@fhansen
@Fenwick
@Lost4words
@Michie
@chevyontheriver
@MariaChristi
@anna ~ grace
Can you help @Vesper_Jaye✝️ out please?

Thank you

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Mortal and Venial Sin?

The most common Bible verse used against the very Catholic and very biblical doctrines concerning mortal and venial sin is James 2:10-11:

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.”

The argument is made from this text that all sins are the same before God. Is this true?


Two Points in Response:

First, the context of James 2 reveals St. James to have been talking about showing partiality for the first nine verses leading up to verses ten and eleven. In verse one St. James says, “My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.” St. James then goes on to say that if we show partiality, for example, toward the rich at the expense of the poor, we fail to keep what he calls “the royal law, according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’” (verse 8). He then says, in verse nine, “But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.” This is his lead-in to talking about keeping the commandments.

The point here is we cannot pick and choose who we are going to love as the Lord commands and who we are not going to love. On Judgment Day, we cannot say, “But I loved over six billion people as I love myself, Lord! I only hated that one guy!” It is an all or nothing proposition. In the same way, we cannot say to God on Judgment Day, “But I kept the other nine commandments, Lord!”

The second point I would make here is if you read the rest of verse 11, St. James explains a little more precisely what he means.

For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.

He never says anything remotely related to “all sins are equal.” He does not say, “If you commit adultery, you are guilty of murder, lying, stealing, etc.” as if there is no difference between these sins. The gravity of each sin is not his point. He simply points out that if you break any of these laws, you have become a transgressor of the law. Again, I believe he is saying you cannot pick and choose which of God’s laws you will obey and those you will not. You must obey all of them.

What is Mortal and Venial Sin?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church provides:

[1855] Mortal Sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God… by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, though it offends and wounds it.
[1861] Mortal sin… results in… the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell…
[1862] One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or complete consent.
[1863] Venial sin weakens charity… and… merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However, venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace, it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently, eternal happiness.”

What Does the Bible Have to Say?

Matt. 5:19:

Whoever then relaxes (breaks) one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” That is both a good definition of venial sin and perfectly in line with paragraph 1863 of the Catechism. Then, Jesus goes on to warn us in no uncertain terms that there are other sins that will take us to hell—if we do not repent, of course. For example, in Matt. 5: 22, Jesus says, “… whoever says ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.” In verses 28-29, he says:

But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Clearly Jesus teaches there are some sins that will separate us from God for all eternity and some that will not–mortal and venial sin.

Matt. 12:32:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This statement of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. That sounds awful Catholic, doesn’t it?

II Maccabees 12:39-46, which was written ca. 125 BC, gives us an excellent historical backdrop that can shed light on the importance of our Lord’s words in Matt. 12:32. As the story goes, Judas Maccabeus and his army collected the bodies of some fallen comrades killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin.

Therefore, Judas and his men turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees really doesn’t matter. Whether a person accepts the inspiration of these books or not does not change the fact that they give us crucial information about the faith and practice of the Jews shortly before the time of Christ from a purely historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins). That’s the historical record.

Some may argue at this point that this text only mentions some sins can be forgiven in the next life, it never says anything about any sins being unforgiveable. And that is true. However, we also know that at least some Jews of the more orthodox bent believed in a state of separation from God, or hell, where sins cannot be forgiven as well. Jesus himself speaks of this in multiple texts of the New Testament, for example, in Mark 9:47-48:

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

In the latter portion of that text Jesus actually quotes Isaiah 66:24 from the Old Testament as alluding to the existence of hell. And he was not saying anything novel or revolutionary here. According to the Talmud, and many Jewish writings before the time of Christ, as well as Orthodox Jewish teaching today, the Jewish faith has included a belief in a place of eternal punishment for the damned for well over 2,000 years. Moreover, among the Old Testament passages used historically by Jewish scholars to this end, Isaiah 66:24 is one of the most common.

Most importantly, we have to acknowledge that this is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. They would have been raised to believe there were some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some sins that cannot be. And it is in this context Jesus declares this to be so in the New Testament, as we saw from Matt. 12:32 above.

I John 5:16-18:

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that is not a deadly sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not deadly. There is sin which is deadly; I do not say one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not deadly. We know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who is born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Three points:

1. These verses cannot be any plainer that there is such a thing as “deadly sin” and “sin which is not deadly.” That is precisely what the Church means by mortal (sin unto death) and venial (sin not unto death) sin.

2. St. John distinguishes the effects of mortal and venial sin as well. Members of the Body of Christ can pray for someone who commits venial sin (sin “which is not deadly”) and “life” (Gr. – zo-ay, or the divine life of God) and healing can be communicated to him through that prayer. But when it comes to “deadly sin,” St. John tells us not to “pray for that.” This is not meant to say we should not pray for a person in this state of sin at all. Scripture is very clear that we should pray for “all men” in I Tim. 2:1-2. The context seems to indicate that he is referring to praying that God “give [the wounded member of Christ] life” directly through that prayer. Divine life and healing can only come through members of the Body of Christ to other members in a direct way if the person being prayed for is in union with the Body of Christ. For mortal sin, one can only pray that God would grant the grace of repentance to the sinner so that they may be restored to communion with the Body of Christ through the sacrament of confession.

To understand this better, consider the analogy St. Paul uses for the people of God in I Corinthians 12:12-27—the analogy of the physical body of a human being. St. Paul tells us we are all members of “the Body of Christ.” A wounded finger that is still attached to its host body can be healed organically by the rest of the body. That kind of wound is analogous to the effect of venial sin. A severed finger, however, cannot be healed by the rest of the body because it is no longer attached to the body. That kind of wound is analogous to the effect of mortal sin. So it is in the Body of Christ.

3. Just after distinguishing between mortal (deadly) and venial (non-deadly) sins, St. John says “anyone born of God does not sin.” We know St. John could not be referring to all sin here because he already told us in I John 1:8: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Christians sin. It is clear from the context that St. John is referring to mortal sin here. If we sin mortally, we are cut off from the Body of Christ and are no longer in union with God. In that sense, the one who is in union with God cannot sin mortally. This is yet another clear distinction between mortal and venial sins in this text.

Mortal Sin Lists

We’ve already seen examples of “venial sins” in I John 5:16 and Matt. 5:19, but when it comes to mortal sin in Scripture, there are actually multiple lists of deadly or “mortal” sins in various places in Sacred Scripture. Our Lord himself provides us with several of them in Matthew 15:18-20, Revelation 21:8 and 22:15. St. Paul gives us the rest in Ephesians 5:3-7, Colossians 3:5-6, Galatians 5:19-21, and I Corinthians 6:9-11.

Any one of these biblical texts makes very clear that the biblical data is clearly in favor of mortal sins, but for brevity’s sake I will cite just one of them (Eph. 5:3-6):

But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. Let there be no filthiness, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (than is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them…

According to St. Paul, no matter how “born again,” “saved,” or whatever you think you are, if you commit these sins and you do not repent, you will not go to heaven. That is the essence of what “mortal sin” means.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/mortal-and-venial-sin

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Question:
What are some examples of venial sins?

Answer:
The Catechism describes two main types of venial sin. First, one commits venial sin when “in a less serious matter [than mortal sin], he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law” (CCC 1862). In other words, if one does something immoral but the matter is not serious enough to be gravely immoral, he commits only venial sin.

For example, deliberate hatred can be venial sin or mortal sin depending on the seriousness of the hatred. The Catechism explains, “Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm” (CCC 2303).

Another example is abusive language. “Abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention” (CCC 2073).


The second type of venial sin involves situations in which the matter is serious enough to be gravely immoral, but the offense lacks at least one of the other essential elements required for mortal sin. The Catechism explains that one commits only venial sin “when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter but without full knowledge or without complete consent” (CCC 1862).

An example of this could be masturbation. The Catechism explains:

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility [for masturbation] . . . one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability. (CCC 2352)

What Are Some Examples of Venial Sins?

More-
Venial Sins 101

Sin

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Question:
I heard a radio preacher talk about the "biblical plan of salvation"--which, of course, he said the Catholic Church didn't obey. How does our Church understand the biblical plan of salvation?

Answer:
The Church understands that we are all sinners in need of a savior (Rom 5:12-21). We are inheritors of original sin and all its consequences, and by actual sin we distance ourselves from God. We can’t save ourselves, but we don’t need to: Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12), since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6).


The saving grace won by Jesus is offered as a free gift to us, accessible through repentance, faith, and baptism. We turn away from our sins, we are sorry for them, and we believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel. Repentance shows our willingness to turn from things that keep us from God, and baptism renews us, filling us with the grace necessary to have faith and to live it. This belief is more than just “head knowledge.” Even the demons have that (Jas 2:19). It’s more than just believing you’re saved. Even the Pharisees had that (Jn 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: It is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6, cf. Jas 2:1-26).

Sometimes the Church is accused of teaching “salvation by works,” but this is an empty accusation. This idea has been consistently condemned by the Church. Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.

What Is the Catholic Understanding of the Biblical Plan of Salvation?

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CATHOLIC: It seems that many non-Catholics in America misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Church teaches salvation by works as if Catholics were trying to earn their way to heaven. This frustrates knowledgeable Catholics because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Catholics. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.

CATHOLIC: I am so glad to hear you say that.


OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. In essence, the Catholic doctrine is semi-Pelagian. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.

CATHOLIC: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever. In contrast, Semi-Pelagianism is only a weakened form of Pelagianism, which taught that a person could save himself. To be a semi-Pelagian is to believe that we could save ourselves but God just helps us to make it easier.

OBJECTOR: But that seems to me to be exactly what the Catholic Church teaches when it says that we must work with God to achieve our salvation. It takes glory away from God the Savior.

CATHOLIC: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.

OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

CATHOLIC: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that the Catholic faith confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.

CATHOLIC: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?

OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as the Catholic faith teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with Catholic teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.

CATHOLIC: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.

OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!

CATHOLIC: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” From this James concludes in verse 22: “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works.” This language of “active along with” and works “completing” faith is the language of cooperation.

OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This “credit exchange” takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.

CATHOLIC: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls baptism the sacrament of justification because in it all our previous sins are forgiven (cf. CCC 1266, 1992). And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.

OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, the Catholic Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Catholic view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.

CATHOLIC: We think that many Christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that “this” refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.

OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.

CATHOLIC: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness “no one will see the Lord” (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. God desires to put this holiness within us, or as Hebrews 12:10 says, “that we may share his holiness.” That is the ultimate rationale behind the Catholic view of salvation: to share in the holiness of God. Nothing less will save us!

Is Salvation an Act or a Process?

More-
Salvation

Assurance of Salvation?

Does the Catholic Church Teach That Works Can Obtain Salvation?

Can Salvation Be Lost?

How are you saved (from death)? I thought we were all condemned to death? Oh yeah God sent his son Jesus so that the world could be saved from death. Who is saved? Those that accept the free gift that God gave us And believe that Jesus died and rose again (he defeated death) and that He will give you Salvation by simply accepting and believing. If you don’t believe that Jesus is the way for your salivation that you are not saved (from death).

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Recently I learned about the Catholic meaning of born again - being baptized

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This has been the Christian understanding for close to 2,000 years. Over the past few hundred years, novel ideas have been created, many posted on this thread.

d taylor said:

To receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

That is it that is the only way to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation).

This is basically all this group does is to study God's / The Bible's Soteriology. Grace Evangelical Society

You need verse read The Gospel of John, it was specifically written to tell people how to have life (Eternal Life) John 20:31

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This does not agree with what the Jesus Christ teaches in the Gospels about Baptism (John 3:5) and the Eucharist (John 6), which are both vital for salvation and are further explained by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians ch. 10-11. And as St. James says in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.”

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:

Why do you have to go to confession to be restored? Can’t you ask God for forgiveness yourself? I’m not trying to attack your beliefs, really I just want answers

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In Confession, the priest or pastor does not forgive the sins, but rather pronounces forgiveness and absolution. There are two forms of confession, general confession, where the congregation prays collectively for forgiveness from their sins, and the priest or pastor pronounces absolution over all of them at once, and auricular confession, when someone confesses privately before a priest or pastor. This can be very useful for working out serious spiritual problems.* I have had very good experiences with auricular confession in the Russian Orthodox tradition, in Orthodox Church of America and ROCOR parishes; once, a Serbian-American ROCOR bishop delivered me from a lifelong fear of hearses, and he and a Russian ROCOR priest greatly helped relieve my pain and sorrow in two separate cases of bereavement. On another instance, a Romanian hieromonk with the OCA heard my confession of a terrible personal failing that left me consumed with guilt. When one is finished, the priest pronounces absolution. Roman Catholic priests always assign penances, whereas Orthodox priests tend to give useful advice; none of the priests I mentioned above penanced me.

However, one aspect of the Russian tradition, which sets it apart from the Greek Orthodox tradition, or the Syriac or Coptic Orthodox traditions, is that in the Russian tradition, one is expected to confess at least monthly, and confessing before every liturgy is considered very healtht. In Greek churches, confessions tend to be longer and more formal, and are often made once a year. When Elder Ephraim of Arizona, memory was alive, a large crowd of Greek speakers visited his monastery in Florence, AZ, St. Anthony’s, to go to confession with him, while Elder Paisios, his successor, heard a much smaller number of confessions in English or Greek. He is I suspect busier now. A relative of mine was greatly helped by him. The Catechism of the Syriac Orthodox Church requires one go to confession and have communion at least once a year, but I think Syriac Orthodox priests in one cathedral I visited pronounced absolution without anyone saying anything, and then served Communion.

Anglicanism in addition to including general confessions in its liturgy (which is common to the ancient churches), offers auricular confession, with the classically Anglican formula “all may, some should, none must.” Martin Luther was a strong believer in auricular confession and most Lutheran pastors I know offer it by appointment. I don’t know what Lutheran and Anglican views on penances in auricular confession are, but my friends @Paidiske and @MarkRohfrietsch might.

* Auricular confession is not a substitute for mental health, so if you are struggling with any kind of mental illness or addiction, you should seek assistance. There are Christian psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, relationship therapists and even social workers available to help. And if you are suicidal, please seek immediate assistance.

Petros2015 said:

Around the year 1054AD, the Catholic churches split. The Roman church headed by the pope became the Roman Catholic Church; the others stayed as they were without it. Roughly, these are the Eastern Orthodox. The Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox were frontline against Islam in the East and later Communism in the Russian lands, which as you can imagine, was not a great place to be... unless you were there to sacrifice yourself for someone else. Which, I'm told, is the kind of thing Christ sometimes does.

East–West Schism - Wikipedia

Byzantine Empire - Wikipedia

A lot of the categorization - mortal, venial etc developed in western Catholicism post schism as did purgatory; this did not happen (at least to the same formalization of degree) on the Eastern side. The Catholic churches in general are centered around the Eucharist; Communion is 'the heartbeat' of the Christ within the Church as it were.

The weekly mass or liturgy is in essence one prayer, standing on this

13 And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son

And they are asking that they may serve the body and of blood of Christ spiritually in the Eucharist to those that partake. That's how they are using it. Pretty powerful. But if you are going to ask for something for someone, it's a good ask. Every mass, at every Catholic church, every week, going back close to 2000 years. It's probably one of the oldest and most powerful prayers that have ever been prayed.

1 Cor 11:23-32

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

Because what they are administering is so sacred (and you would know how sacred if you were to take a close look at the prayers being prayed over it), then the examination of self is important. The believers are educated, members are confirmed, the framework for self examination (Confession) is established in order that those who partake partake worthily because they are, in essence, "meeting Christ" in the cup. The pieces of what they are doing (each individual sacrament) "make sense" when you understand what they are doing as a whole and how they were meant to work together. And (ideally) the Church is providing the framework wherein that can happen safely and be carried forward to others.

Of course, history is less than ideal.
"well, we had better Categorize all these things - mortal, venial" lol.
That's the absolute least of it.

I completely understand Luther's thesis by the time he nailed it to the door
What was behind the door had changed in large part
But I do feel that people should know
What it was meant
(and sometimes still means)
To be

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This is very important for Christians to know. I feel like those of us who are either Eastern Orthodox or have a strong knowledge of or connection to Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy should endeavor to spread knowledge about it among members of the forum.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

I don't understand the point you are making. Why would I stay 10 feet away from Christ?

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How is being baptized staying ten feet away from Christ?

Being a Christian is like a new bride. The bride says yes and goes to everyone and tells them about their upcoming wedding, she is full of love, does everything to prepare for the wedding, she grows more and more in love with the groom, always trying to please him. What bride does nothing but stays at home and not prepare? Christians are just like that, they behave exactly the same way. But they are saved from the moment they say yes to Jesus, but it is Jesus who comes to them, in His grace.

The first Church in the book of revelation, Ephesus, did many things well. Jesus praised them for their good deeds, hard work and patience. The people in that Church seems to be working for the Lord, they remained faithful to the Lord and Word, but Jesus tells them they need to repent, otherwise judgement will fall onto them, why? Because they didn't love Jesus first, and there is no substitute for loving Jesus. No matter how many good works, no matter what you do in life, if you do not love Jesus with your whole life, you will not enter into Heaven.

It was pointless for this Church to do all these good works when their love for Jesus was cold. But human heart is evil, no capable of loving Christ like we are commanded. Therefore God by His grace must rip away the sinful heart, and replace it with a new loving heart with all God's laws written in it, and this heart is capable to love Jesus first. This is done by God alone because we don't deserve it. This is why Christians are never just sitting around but are full of love and spreading God's Word around. But they are saved already. The moment they are born again they are saved, even if they did nothing for the rest of their life, but that wouldn't happen, not with an heart that loves God so much.

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The Nicene Creed, which is the Statement of Faith for this forum, states “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins.”

Danthemailman said:

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That's not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

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Traditional Christians, whether sola fide or not, just insist on not reading it eisegetically, but in harmony with the Epistle of James and the words of our Lord and the Holy Apostle Paul on the sacraments, and the interpretation is the same (faith without works is dead).

The Liturgist said:

Traditional Christians, whether sola fide or not, just insist on not reading it eisegetically, but in harmony with the Epistle of James and the words of our Lord and the Holy Apostle Paul on the sacraments, and the interpretation is the same (faith without works is dead).

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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)