The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Guojing

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No. People were saved into the Body of Christ before Paul. Note Barnabas (an Apostle)was and Andronicus and Julia, `my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the Apostles, who ALSO WERE IN CHRIST BEFORE ME.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Did you not notice that Paul deliberately said they are in Christ, but he did not say they are in the Body of Christ?

Are you assuming that in Christ is equivalent to being in the Body of Christ?
 
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Marilyn C

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Did you not notice that Paul deliberately said they are in Christ, but he did not say they are in the Body of Christ?

Are you assuming that in Christ is equivalent to being in the Body of Christ?

Thank you Guojing,

Yes I did notice and for more detail we look to Ephesians 4.

`When He ascended He gave.....some to be apostles and some prophets ...for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the BODY OF CHRIST` (Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

So we know that when the Lord ascended to the Father, that He was made Head of His Body, (Eph. 1: 22) and from there He gave of Himself, His 5 fold ministry gifts, as apostles etc. Thus we read of those apostles, prophets, teachers etc. And some were in the Body of Christ before Paul, as those ministries were for the `edifying of the body of Christ.`
 
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Guojing

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Thank you Guojing,

Yes I did notice and for more detail we look to Ephesians 4.

`When He ascended He gave.....some to be apostles and some prophets ...for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the BODY OF CHRIST` (Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

So we know that when the Lord ascended to the Father, that He was made Head of His Body, (Eph. 1: 22) and from there He gave of Himself, His 5 fold ministry gifts, as apostles etc. Thus we read of those apostles, prophets, teachers etc. And some were in the Body of Christ before Paul, as those ministries were for the `edifying of the body of Christ.`

So if your answer to my question is yes, you are also aware that the 12 are also in Christ, from John 15:5.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Do you then also believe that the 12 apostles are also in the Body of Christ?
 
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Marilyn C

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So if your answer to my question is yes, you are also aware that the 12 are also in Christ, from John 15:5.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Do you then also believe that the 12 apostles are also in the Body of Christ?

Yes the 12 Apostles of the Lamb are in Christ, however they have a different purpose and inheritance than those in the Body of Christ.

`...beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION.` (Acts 1: 22)

`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

` Now the wall of the city has 12 foundations, and on them were the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)
 
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Guojing

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Yes the 12 Apostles of the Lamb are in Christ, however they have a different purpose and inheritance than those in the Body of Christ.

`...beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION.` (Acts 1: 22)

`So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28)

` Now the wall of the city has 12 foundations, and on them were the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)

So you believe that the 12 are in the Body of Christ but also, simultaneously, "have a different purpose and inheritance than those in the Body of Christ"

You don't find that contradictory?
 
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Marilyn C

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So you would state that the 12 are in Christ, but are you also stating that you believe they are also in the Body of Christ?

But when you encounter a passage like Romans 16:7,

“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

how come you would think they are somehow in the Body of Christ, even when Paul only stated that they are in Christ?

What criteria do you use to distinguish?

No I didn`t say they (the 12) were in the Body of Christ. I said they had a different purpose and different inheritance.

In Christ, is not just for the Body of Christ but for all God`s purposes through Christ.

The distinction is that the 12 were to be witnesses of Christ`s life, death, resurrection and ascension. Then they will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the New Jerusalem. (I previously gave the scriptures).

Then the Apostles that came later were when Christ ascended and then sent His Holy Spirit with the 5 fold ministries of Christ to equip and build up the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ will rule and reign with Him in the highest.
 
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Guojing

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No I didn`t say they (the 12) were in the Body of Christ. I said they had a different purpose and different inheritance.

So you do agree that in Christ is NOT equivalent to being in the Body of Christ.

Alright, thanks for sharing your view.
 
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Marilyn C

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So you do agree that in Christ is NOT equivalent to being in the Body of Christ.

Alright, thanks for sharing your view.

Yes and thank you Guojing for discussing politely. I did listen to the speaker you posted a while ago and thought he did well. However as you know I see some part a bit differently.

Still we have the main truths and in that we can rejoice.
 
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Timtofly

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Yet they do go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.
This would be the point where Paul would say, "Not all of Israel (Christians) are all of Israel (Christian)."

So are you sure you can use the word "Christian" throughout the whole Bible, every time it says "saint"? If you claim all are Christians, then Abel was a Christian. Abraham was a Christian. Noah was a Christian. Lot was a Christian. Moses was a Christian.

Otherwise over generalizing the word Christian would tend to render the word meaningless after a while. Some even estimate over 2 billion Christians alive today. That is 25% of the population.

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

If all Christians are killed, is the rapture the means of their death, or war, hunger, famine, plague, and wild animals? Do you call the 144k "Christians" just to keep the term going, even though no more Christians are alive?

The tribulation of the 4th Seal gets very little attention, because many want to take the entire church all the way to the vials for some reason. Jesus says after the tribulation of those days, that is the first four Seals. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Unless one can prove the rapture is years after the Second Coming, then the rapture happens in the 6th Seal as well, if any are still alive, of course. The 144k are sealed after the rapture. Did God purposely leave 144k Christians on earth and not rapture them? Or perhaps God chose 144k lost Israelites and instantly redeemed them, because they serve the Lamb on earth during the Tribulation? Jesus chose 12 disciples the first time on earth. Not necessarily because they were Judaizers. Jesus chose them as the first fruits of NT Christianity. The 144k are the firstfruits of the Coming Millennial Kingdom. They are more than just Christ followers, they are Prince followers as well. They are Christrulers more than just simple Christians.
 
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Timtofly

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Apparently, when Jesus surprises us it will be when things are normal like just before the flood in Noah's day (Matthew 24:37-39). Everything is normal on the last day of the tribulation then suddenly Jesus comes. Is that how it works?

By the end of the tribulation most of the planet will be wiped out. All the remaining people will be on the verge of getting wiped out, but we're suppose to believe that everything is normal?

Didn't the Mark decimate the Christian population? After that only Christians hiding out far from cities would survive. How many would that be, thousands? So almost no Christians will be around to watch for the return of Jesus. Notice how this screws up the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins because there aren't any virgins around waiting for him.

How do we fix all of this?
The 7th Trumpet is the last day of the Tribulation, but not the Second Coming. Jesus Christ is already on the earth with the angels during the Trumpets and Thunders.

We, humans, do not "fix" anything. The church is to gather a harvest in obedience to God. At the Second Coming, the harvest of the church is finished, over, kaput, done. God works with Israel during the Trumpets. This is the final harvest. All of Adam's flesh and blood will die. Those who reject that Christ comes before the Tribulation placed on Israel, reject the church, and have become physical Israel at that point, and unless they are actually a descendant of Jacob, they will have to wait for the Thunders. And if they are still alive at the 7th Trumpet, will have to chose to be beheaded. The only "escape" or perseverance at that point is the same decision - have your head chopped off.
 
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Timtofly

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Ahh you are a Mid-trib?
That would be post trib.

The 42 months is not the time of unprecedented trouble. The Trumpets and Thunders are. The 7th Trumpet sounds after the 7 Thunders.

Satan's 42 months is utter desolation, and Satan will either be benevolent or sadistic. Look at Nebuchadnezzer. He was as wishy washy as they come. But God will not be judging the world. God and the Lamb will let Satan have complete control and responsibility. Satan will be nice to some and evil to others like all despot leaders. Obviously it will all be centered around the mark, and worship of the FP, Satan, and the beast (AC). Not even the 144k will be around, only the 2 witnesses. Only those who have their heads chopped off will survive the 42 months. All the rest will die at Armageddon or during the vials in the 3.5 days before Armageddon. Armageddon is the winepress of the wrath of the Lamb.
 
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Timtofly

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Interesting question. Do you know the way to ...San Jose? (or whatever that song was). Meaning who knows how to get to the third heaven.

We know that when the Lord comes He brings the spirits of those `asleep` in Him, they go to the grave, rise with new bodies as we do too, and then the whole Body meets the Lord in the air and connects to the Head, (physically), and we follow the Lord through into the invisible realm. (Col. 1: 16)
They do not need the body of dust. Many have been cremated, their ashes scattered all over creation. That would still not be meeting in the air. That would be meeting on earth.

Meeting in the air will allow those on earth to see the whole church glorified at the same time. Those on earth will have the thought that only God's wrath is left for them. Meeting in the air is the proof positive to those left on earth, that they have to go through great tribulation. That is why they ask:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Up until the 5th Seal, no one knows the judgments are from God. Many interpretations of the Seals as there are humans trying to make sense of the Seals. The church will experience the Seals. Obviously many Christians claim the Seals have been opening since the Cross, so does it matter, until it actually happens? The church has faced tribulation since the Cross. So the Second Coming will always be after the tribulation of those days. The Second Coming will not be after Christ comes with the angels. The Second Coming is Christ coming with the angels.
 
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Timtofly

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Mmm I don`t think so for they are of the Israeli purpose, as we know the 12 disciples are too.
The 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the Gentiles. They took the gospel to the Gentiles.

In Revelation 7, the 144k are the "reverse" of the original disciples. They are sealed from all 12 tribes now taking the gospel to the Israelites in all nations.

The time of the Gentiles entering the church has ended. The NT church began at the Cross and ends at the Second Coming. Those who claim the Trumpets and Thunders are mixed up and during the Seals, are not letting Revelation unfold. They are lumping it into a single "instant event". Revelation is not instant. Christ and the angels will be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They came at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed, redeemed prior to the Lamb's book of life being completely unsealed at the 7th Seal. The 144k cannot be removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are not part of the glorified church in Paradise. They were sealed after the Second Coming.

Do they literally represent the church on earth? Of course. The church are those named in the Lamb's book of life since Genesis 1. However Christians are followers of Christ since the Cross. Actually a name given after the fact.

"Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

Christian by definition is a follower of Christ. Many have taken the name. Not all have been annointed by choice. The word actually means anointed one. That is not how it is defined now. Now it is just another religion to many. Christ was the anointed one by God, as well as being God with us. God is the one who anoints us into to the family of God, being born of the Spirit. It is both a choice to accept, and an invitation to be born again.

As for the 144k and the 12 disciples, they were chosen. Obviously like Judas, they could have refused. I don't see that as a viable choice, but an exception of purpose. It could be said, that Judas was never a disciple, but part of the group, just to betray Jesus. Some would claim proof of being saved, but then loosing one's salvation. Paul claims he was the actual 12 disciple, "born" out of time from the rest. The disciples themselves chose a "12th" disciple, but whom did God choose?

History repeating itself? The tribe of Benjamin replaced by the half tribes of his brother Joseph? Interesting that in Revelation 7, Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned, yet Joseph and Benjamin are. Manasses replaced Dan and Ephraim.

Twelve disciples, 13, or 14? Twelve tribes, 13, or 14? Is the church only those chosen directly by God, or those who reciprocate with their own choice to accept the new birth? Are there some chosen by God despite their own choice in that decision of God? They literally have no choice themselves? Obviously, Calvinist claim all fall into that category. That we literally have no choice to accept or deny. That means if God did choose Judas to deny God, many chosen would also have to deny God, because they literally have no ability to decide any other course of action. That would be the point we have no free will, but are just pre-programmed for God's will. Or coerced despite our own will. They apply that to Adam, claiming Adam had no choice, but God forced or made Adam disobey. It was going to happen just as God planned.

That would mean that even discussing in an eschatology forum, we really have no choices at all. Every word was already preprogrammed by God. No view is wrong or right. It is all just going to happen without meaning or purpose outside of just being mere creation itself.
 
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ewq1938

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This would be the point where Paul would say, "Not all of Israel (Christians) are all of Israel (Christian)."

So are you sure you can use the word "Christian" throughout the whole Bible, every time it says "saint"?

In NT prophecy, it is 100 percent Christian saints.



If all Christians are killed, is the rapture the means of their death, or war, hunger, famine, plague, and wild animals? Do you call the 144k "Christians" just to keep the term going, even though no more Christians are alive?


All Christians are not killed in the Great Tribulation. A lot will be but not all. Paul said some will be alive and remaining which means surviving in Greek.


The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Unless one can prove the rapture is years after the Second Coming, then the rapture happens in the 6th Seal as well, if any are still alive, of course. The 144k are sealed after the rapture. Did God purposely leave 144k Christians on earth and not rapture them?

When a seal is opened nothing at all happened in the world! The only things that happens was that John saw snippets of events that happen when each trump sounds. Each seal simply gives a preview of one of the 7 trumps, generally some info not revealed in the scriptures describing the events of the trumps.

Example. The 6th seal shows events of the 7th trumpet. However, it's given from the perspective of the unsaved. They see Christ returning and are in fear. And naturally it is in the 7th trump that Christ returns. How can Christ return twice, once in the 6th seal and again at the 7th/last trump? Obviously the 6th seal return is not actually happening at the time the seal is opened but simply shows us a view of the 7th trump second coming before it happens.

So, the seals are not unique events separate from the trumps. That explains the problem with Christ returning in the 6th seal but not the 6th trump and also proves the seals don't show events in chronological order.

The seals are just previews of the trumps and not in order.
 
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Marilyn C

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The 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the Gentiles. They took the gospel to the Gentiles.

In Revelation 7, the 144k are the "reverse" of the original disciples. They are sealed from all 12 tribes now taking the gospel to the Israelites in all nations.

The time of the Gentiles entering the church has ended. The NT church began at the Cross and ends at the Second Coming. Those who claim the Trumpets and Thunders are mixed up and during the Seals, are not letting Revelation unfold. They are lumping it into a single "instant event". Revelation is not instant. Christ and the angels will be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. They came at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed, redeemed prior to the Lamb's book of life being completely unsealed at the 7th Seal. The 144k cannot be removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are not part of the glorified church in Paradise. They were sealed after the Second Coming.

Do they literally represent the church on earth? Of course. The church are those named in the Lamb's book of life since Genesis 1. However Christians are followers of Christ since the Cross. Actually a name given after the fact.

"Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."

Christian by definition is a follower of Christ. Many have taken the name. Not all have been annointed by choice. The word actually means anointed one. That is not how it is defined now. Now it is just another religion to many. Christ was the anointed one by God, as well as being God with us. God is the one who anoints us into to the family of God, being born of the Spirit. It is both a choice to accept, and an invitation to be born again.

As for the 144k and the 12 disciples, they were chosen. Obviously like Judas, they could have refused. I don't see that as a viable choice, but an exception of purpose. It could be said, that Judas was never a disciple, but part of the group, just to betray Jesus. Some would claim proof of being saved, but then loosing one's salvation. Paul claims he was the actual 12 disciple, "born" out of time from the rest. The disciples themselves chose a "12th" disciple, but whom did God choose?

History repeating itself? The tribe of Benjamin replaced by the half tribes of his brother Joseph? Interesting that in Revelation 7, Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned, yet Joseph and Benjamin are. Manasses replaced Dan and Ephraim.

Twelve disciples, 13, or 14? Twelve tribes, 13, or 14? Is the church only those chosen directly by God, or those who reciprocate with their own choice to accept the new birth? Are there some chosen by God despite their own choice in that decision of God? They literally have no choice themselves? Obviously, Calvinist claim all fall into that category. That we literally have no choice to accept or deny. That means if God did choose Judas to deny God, many chosen would also have to deny God, because they literally have no ability to decide any other course of action. That would be the point we have no free will, but are just pre-programmed for God's will. Or coerced despite our own will. They apply that to Adam, claiming Adam had no choice, but God forced or made Adam disobey. It was going to happen just as God planned.

That would mean that even discussing in an eschatology forum, we really have no choices at all. Every word was already preprogrammed by God. No view is wrong or right. It is all just going to happen without meaning or purpose outside of just being mere creation itself.

Hi Tim,

Actually the Church, the Body of Christ started when the Lord ascended to the Father and sent His Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost to `set` them in the Body. `(Acts 2: 4, 1 Cor. 12: 18)
 
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Timtofly

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In NT prophecy, it is 100 percent Christian saints.

All Christians are not killed in the Great Tribulation. A lot will be but not all. Paul said some will be alive and remaining which means surviving in Greek.

When a seal is opened nothing at all happened in the world! The only things that happens was that John saw snippets of events that happen when each trump sounds. Each seal simply gives a preview of one of the 7 trumps, generally some info not revealed in the scriptures describing the events of the trumps.

Example. The 6th seal shows events of the 7th trumpet. However, it's given from the perspective of the unsaved. They see Christ returning and are in fear. And naturally it is in the 7th trump that Christ returns. How can Christ return twice, once in the 6th seal and again at the 7th/last trump? Obviously the 6th seal return is not actually happening at the time the seal is opened but simply shows us a view of the 7th trump second coming before it happens.

So, the seals are not unique events separate from the trumps. That explains the problem with Christ returning in the 6th seal but not the 6th trump and also proves the seals don't show events in chronological order.

The seals are just previews of the trumps and not in order.
The church is already with the Lord, before the 7th Seal, and when the judgments start. The church is not judged in the world. The church is judged in Paradise.

Those angels are not even given the Trumpets until after the 7th Seal is opened. You are skipping the first part of chapter 8.
 
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The church is already with the Lord, before the 7th Seal, and when the judgments start.

The church isn't with Christ until the 7th trump, long after the seals had been opened.

Those angels are not even given the Trumpets until after the 7th Seal is opened.

Everyone already knows that.
 
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Timtofly

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The church isn't with Christ until the 7th trump, long after the seals had been opened.
Everyone already knows that.

That is a common, but private interpretation, because that is not what John wrote.

Everyone may know the words, but no where does John write the church is with Christ after the 7th Trumpet.

The church is with Christ after the 6th Seal.
 
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That is a common, but private interpretation, because that is not what John wrote.

Everyone may know the words, but no where does John write the church is with Christ after the 7th Trumpet.

The church is with Christ after the 6th Seal.


The 6th seal is describing 7th trump events. Those events aren't happening when John sees them when the seal is opened. He is seeing future events. The dead of the church (the dead in Christ) are resurrected at the 7th trump timeframe. The rapture of the living saints also happens just after that resurrection.
 
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What other kind of darkness is it besides spiritual darkness? In contrast to the ones that Paul says are in darkness he calls believers "the children of light". What kind of light do you think he was talking about?

Well, the kind of light that reveals the items below:

5 Places Where World War III Could Erupt in 2022 - 19FortyFive

What does the Russian ultimatum to the West mean? | Desk Russie

Here is my list of saved articles: Emerging Risks.

Note the second article and its publication date - 30.12.2021. I was kind of shaking in my boots after reading that one. I also know the Russian people are getting generally prepared for nuclear war. China is playing its own dangerous game over Taiwan. For some reason, China is currently accumulating half the planet's grains. That's odd. Or maybe it knows something we don't.

China Accused of ‘Hoarding’ Grain

I'm shining a light on things that most people are not aware of because they are sleeping. The US is in pretty serious trouble. Will it still be around in a couple of years? I have my doubts.
 
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