New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

grafted branch

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The word for rod in Revelation 11:1 is also seen in Revelation 12:5 & Revelation 19:15 (the rod of iron); and also in 1 Corinthians 4:21:
"What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and the spirit of meekness?"
It's also seen in Revelation 12:5 & Revelation 19:15 (the rod of iron).
The word rod is not in Revelation 21:15, instead it says golden reed. Both John and the angel use their reed to measure <3354>. To me it would seem that the same reed (tool) is used by both John and the angel, it’s just described differently.

When Moses struck the rock the second time he was not allowed to enter Canaan. Many commentaries say the rock represents Christ and He is only smitten once.

I’m just asking as a brother that wants to understand, is there a reason both John and the angel are able to measure the body of Christ?
 
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TribulationSigns

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I’m just asking as a brother that wants to understand, is there a reason both John and the angel are able to measure the body of Christ?

Indeed, the body of Christ (making up of all Elect/Saints from the Old and New Testament) "IS" the temple/house/tabernalces where Christ dwells within them. And Christ has declared that they are 144,000 which is a symbolic with the root numbers of 10 and 12. Like I explain earlier, the number 10 (and its multiples, 100, 1,000, etc.) are the numbers of FULLNESS. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheet with one going astray, or the 1,000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of WHATEVER IS IN VIEW. And the number 12 in Scripture is illustrative of the CONGREGATION of the Lod, as seen in the Old Covenant with 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant with 12 Apostles. So 1,000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fullness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes in christ, as also illustrated in the perfect city of Jersualem.

Revelation 21:16
  • "And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
Moreover, there are peculiarities that should readily alert us to the fact that this 144,000 is not the tribes of earthly Israel. First of all, we've seen symbolism all throughout Revelation, and why would God suddenly have this chapter to be curiously understood as a literal narrative, in the midst of all this symbolism? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Secondly, those sealed are said to be made up all the tribes of Israel, and yet all the literal tribes of Israel are not listed. This is because this is Spiritual Israel, an Israel in Christ, not the nation in the middle east. When we examine the census carefully, we find there are significant differences from lists in other places in scripture.

Thirdly, the number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.

Revelation 21:12-17

  • "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

  • On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

  • And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

  • And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

  • And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

  • And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
See? The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence anymore than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence anymore than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the middle east, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in the Israel which is Christ. Not a worldly Israel, but a heavenly habitation of God. This Israel is also illustrated in revelation chapter 14.

Revelation 14:1-5

  • "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

  • And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

  • And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

  • These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

  • And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Here God tells us clearly who these 144,000 represent. Not 144,000 Jews, but the body of Christ are those who stand on Mount Zion with this Lamb and all have the Father's name written in their foreheads. All part of a New Covenant with Israel, which is not an earthly nation, but spiritual agreement or promise, which is something far superior than a physical building or a piece of land.
 
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grafted branch

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Indeed, the body of Christ (making up of all Elect/Saints from the Old and New Testament) "IS" the temple/house/tabernalces where Christ dwells within them. And Christ has declared that they are 144,000 which is a symbolic with the root numbers of 10 and 12. Like I explain earlier, the number 10 (and its multiples, 100, 1,000, etc.) are the numbers of FULLNESS. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheet with one going astray, or the 1,000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of WHATEVER IS IN VIEW. And the number 12 in Scripture is illustrative of the CONGREGATION of the Lod, as seen in the Old Covenant with 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant with 12 Apostles. So 1,000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fullness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes in christ, as also illustrated in the perfect city of Jersualem.

Revelation 21:16
  • "And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
Moreover, there are peculiarities that should readily alert us to the fact that this 144,000 is not the tribes of earthly Israel. First of all, we've seen symbolism all throughout Revelation, and why would God suddenly have this chapter to be curiously understood as a literal narrative, in the midst of all this symbolism? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Secondly, those sealed are said to be made up all the tribes of Israel, and yet all the literal tribes of Israel are not listed. This is because this is Spiritual Israel, an Israel in Christ, not the nation in the middle east. When we examine the census carefully, we find there are significant differences from lists in other places in scripture.

Thirdly, the number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the Lord's Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of God.

Revelation 21:12-17

  • "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

  • On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

  • And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

  • And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

  • And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

  • And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."
See? The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence anymore than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence anymore than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the middle east, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in the Israel which is Christ. Not a worldly Israel, but a heavenly habitation of God. This Israel is also illustrated in revelation chapter 14.

Revelation 14:1-5

  • "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

  • And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

  • And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

  • These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

  • And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Here God tells us clearly who these 144,000 represent. Not 144,000 Jews, but the body of Christ are those who stand on Mount Zion with this Lamb and all have the Father's name written in their foreheads. All part of a New Covenant with Israel, which is not an earthly nation, but spiritual agreement or promise, which is something far superior than a physical building or a piece of land.
I see how you are using the spiritual meaning of numbers such as 10 and 12 to confirm the meaning of 144,000. I think the number 144,000 is in all likely hood is not meant literally; Revelation 7:9 say no man can number them. So I think the point your making is that man can’t literally number those who are saved but man can spiritually number them.

The body of Christ being the temple that is measured in Revelation 11:1 is certainly a reasonable assumption and you put forth multiple reasons for that.

A specific issue with this is that the body of Christ is struck twice, once in Revelation 11 and again in Revelation 21. I don’t know how this can be; do you think John and the angel in Revelation 21 are one and the same so the measuring only happens once? Would you say that the rod Moses used to strike the rock is not representative of the rod in Revelation 11?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It makes no sense in the way you are not understanding the verse.
Why are you avoiding answering my question? Nothing you said in your post has anything to do with the question I asked. What is your understanding of John being told to measure those who worship in the temple? What does that mean if it's supposed to be understood in a literal, physical sense?

Note that I'm not asking about measuring the temple itself. I'm asking about the measuring of the worshipers in the temple.
 
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Douggg

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Why are you avoiding answering my question? Nothing you said in your post has anything to do with the question I asked. What is your understanding of John being told to measure those who worship in the temple? What does that mean if it's supposed to be understood in a literal, physical sense?
Do you know what an assumptuos, loaded, question is ?

An example would be - How many times did you beat your wife last night ?

Your question assumes that John was told to...

1. measure the temple
2. measure the altar
3. measure them that worship therein

i.e. you are mentally reading the verse this way.... And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and measure the altar, and measure them that worship therein.

....measuring each as a separate item. Which obviously does not make sense because a rod is not used for measuring people. instead of...

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

You are not considering that John was looking at the temple complex when he was given the rod. The temple is comprised of a sanctuary building, two courts, and an altar; and that John saw people worshiping therein the inner court and the outer court. It is indicating that the temple was not desolate at that time of John's task to measure the temple. And that Jews were actively conducting temple ceremonies, offering burnt sacrifices on the altar.

John measured the overall perimeter of the temple complex, leaving out the outer court as he was told.

We are not given the result of John's measurement, but that will become apparent of why not when the temple is actually built. What the two verses are doing is alerting us at the time of the Antichrist the size of the temple will be downsized, imo.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Your question assumes that John was told to...

1. measure the temple
2. measure the altar
3. measure them that worship therein

i.e. you are mentally reading the verse this way.... And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and measure the altar, and measure them that worship therein.

....measuring each as a separate item. Which obviously does not make sense because a rod is not used for measuring people. instead of...

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

It is you who is having a reading comprehension issue here. Please read the verse carefully and notice a big fat red bold...on what John was told to measure:

Rev 11:1
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

And what did your good ol' English teacher tell you what the word, "and" means in school? Obviously God told John to measure three things!

You are not considering that John was looking at the temple complex when he was given the rod. The temple is comprised of a sanctuary building, two courts, and an altar; and that John saw people worshiping therein the inner court and the outer court. It is indicating that the temple was not desolate at that time of John's task to measure the temple. And that Jews were actively conducting temple ceremonies, offering burnt sacrifices on the altar.

Listen. The "whole temple complex" of Revelation 11 "IS" the Holy City itself. It makes up of two groups of worshippers. One is Elect are measured while the professed Christians are not measured. Many are called few are chosen. That is why the court outside the temple is larger than the temple court. The Elect is found WITHIN the "inner court" where altar and the temple are standing. However the people in the court OUTSIDE the temple are the many Christ called to come but they are not chosen. They are unsaved professed Christian. Have you ever wondered why the Jews instructed the visiting "Gentiles" to remain in the outer court in the Old Testament. And here in New Testament, God is painting a spiritual picture for his church. He clearly said that he will "give up" the court (unfaithfuls) to Gentiles to be deceived where they have made it desolate.

John measured the overall perimeter of the temple complex, leaving out the outer court as he was told.

Yeah... and?

We are not given the result of John's measurement, but that will become apparent of why not when the temple is actually built. What the two verses are doing is alerting us at the time of the Antichrist the size of the temple will be downsized, imo.

This is not what Bible teaches. Sorry. I have shown you how to Scripture has defined how rod does to God's TRUE people. You did not see this because you are addicted into looking for literal fulfillments...just like the Jews in Christ's days. They do not understand Christ's speech.
 
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Zao is life

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I see how you are using the spiritual meaning of numbers such as 10 and 12 to confirm the meaning of 144,000. I think the number 144,000 is in all likely hood is not meant literally; Revelation 7:9 say no man can number them. So I think the point your making is that man can’t literally number those who are saved but man can spiritually number them.

The body of Christ being the temple that is measured in Revelation 11:1 is certainly a reasonable assumption and you put forth multiple reasons for that.

A specific issue with this is that the body of Christ is struck twice, once in Revelation 11 and again in Revelation 21. I don’t know how this can be; do you think John and the angel in Revelation 21 are one and the same so the measuring only happens once? Would you say that the rod Moses used to strike the rock is not representative of the rod in Revelation 11?
I wish I could shorten this post but it's such an important subject.

The rod in Revelation 11:1-2 is symbolizing the fact that the time has come for the church to come under great tribulation (please read this entire post before you reject this statement) because of spiritual harlotry, which is going to separate the faithful from the unfaithful:

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There are many other verses and scriptures which speak about this time (Revelation 13:7 among them, with Revelation 13 telling us about the entities that will be bringing all Christians under great tribulation).

The rod signifies the fact that the time has come for the church to be chastened and cleansed, and purged of the unfaithful, i.e the harlots, those who are part of that part of the church which is a harlot (the way Judah was when Babylon invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple (that being a biblical type of what is coming).

The following warning to the church at Thyatira should have been enough of a warning to all Christians, especially the last-days church (aside from hundreds of other examples in scripture), but it shall be proved that most Christians did not listen:

Revelation 2
21 And I gave her (Jezebel) time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

"Great Tribulation"

The words "great tribulation" are a translation of the Greek words megas thlipsis. Great tribulation (megas thlipsis) is mentioned in Revelation 7:14; Revelation 2:21-23; and Matthew 24:21 - and that mention of great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse which Jesus gave, together with the other two mentioned above by Jesus, are the only three times Jesus mentioned great tribulation (megas thlipsis):

All except two of the verses in the New Testament talking about tribulation, affliction, trouble etc, are talking about the tribulation of the saints, and only three of them place the adjective megas (great) in front of it (each time Jesus Himself was speaking).

Here (click) is a list I complied a while back of all the New Testament verses talking about tribulation, affliction, trouble etc that I came across in the New Testament.

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible, the days of Noah being the first one.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city in the day Jerusalem was destroyed by the the armies of Babylon.

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and in the experience of God's people across time, there is no such thing as a "once-off" experience of tribulation.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people." (Compare Mat 24:9-15, 21-22, 29-31 with Luke 21:23).

TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
With the exception of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6, every single reference to tribulation in the New Testament is talking about tribulation as the experience of the saints, i.e of those who believe in Christ (unless Matthew 24:21, which talks about great tribulation, is also an exception to the rule, i.e IF Matthew 24:21 is speaking about the tribulation which was faced by the Jews in A.D 70 and is the same tribulation spoken of in Luke 21:23).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Do you know what an assumptuos, loaded, question is ?

An example would be - How many times did you beat your wife last night ?

Your question assumes that John was told to...

1. measure the temple
2. measure the altar
3. measure them that worship therein

i.e. you are mentally reading the verse this way.... And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and measure the altar, and measure them that worship therein.

....measuring each as a separate item. Which obviously does not make sense because a rod is not used for measuring people. instead of...

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

You are not considering that John was looking at the temple complex when he was given the rod. The temple is comprised of a sanctuary building, two courts, and an altar; and that John saw people worshiping therein the inner court and the outer court. It is indicating that the temple was not desolate at that time of John's task to measure the temple. And that Jews were actively conducting temple ceremonies, offering burnt sacrifices on the altar.

John measured the overall perimeter of the temple complex, leaving out the outer court as he was told.

We are not given the result of John's measurement, but that will become apparent of why not when the temple is actually built. What the two verses are doing is alerting us at the time of the Antichrist the size of the temple will be downsized, imo.
This is truly unbelievable. You will do anything to twist scripture to fit your doctrine. Anything. It's pathetic.

You're acting as if it says for John to measure the temple of God and what...just to look at the altar and them that worship therein? Come on. What a joke. It's clearly saying he was told to measure the temple, measure the altar and measure them that worship therein. It's figurative language, so measuring them that worship therein is simply a case of him taking an account of who are in the church, which is the temple of God. He was told not to measure the outer court, because that is given to the heathen (usually translated as "Gentiles" - which means non-spiritual Jews in this case) since they are not part of the church.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is you who is having a reading comprehension issue here. Please read the verse carefully and notice a big fat red bold...on what John was told to measure:

Rev 11:1
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

And what did your good ol' English teacher tell you what the word, "and" means in school? Obviously God told John to measure three things!
Exactly. Have you ever seen such a blatant case of twisting scripture before? It's shameful.
 
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Douggg

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It is you who is having a reading comprehension issue here. Please read the verse carefully and notice a big fat red bold...on what John was told to measure:

Rev 11:1
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
The temple can mean either....

1. the sanctuary building by itself. (as in 2Thessalonians2:4)
2. the temple complex, with its altar, and the courtyards where people worship.

John was instructed to measure the temple complex, but not include the outer courtyard.
 
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Douggg

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This is truly unbelievable. You will do anything to twist scripture to fit your doctrine. Anything. It's pathetic.

You're acting as if it says for John to measure the temple of God and what...just to look at the altar and them that worship therein? Come on. What a joke. It's clearly saying he was told to measure the temple, measure the altar and measure them that worship therein. It's figurative language, so measuring them that worship therein is simply a case of him taking an account of who are in the church, which is the temple of God. He was told not to measure the outer court, because that is given to the heathen (usually translated as "Gentiles" - which means non-spiritual Jews in this case) since they are not part of the church.
You are spiritualizing the reed like unto a rod.

You are claiming the Church has inner and outer courtyards?
 
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jgr

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The temple can mean either....

1. the sanctuary building by itself. (as in 2Thessalonians2:4)
2. the temple complex, with its altar, and the courtyards where people worship.

John was instructed to measure the temple complex, but not include the outer courtyard.

The temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a "naos" spiritual temple representing the Church. Paul is consistent in identifying the spiritual temple of the Church exclusively as "naos" in his epistles. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

John is similarly consistent in identifying the temples in Revelation. Every single occurrence of "temple" in Revelation is "naos".

The Revelation temples are exclusively the spiritual temples of the Church, and their Revelation measurements are exclusively spiritual measurements.
 
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Douggg

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The temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a "naos" spiritual temple representing the Church. Paul is consistent in identifying the spiritual temple of the Church exclusively as "naos" in his epistles. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

John is similarly consistent in identifying the temples in Revelation. Every single occurrence of "temple" in Revelation is "naos".

The Revelation temples are exclusively the spiritual temples of the Church, and their Revelation measurements are exclusively spiritual measurements.
Are you going to spiritualize the 42 months and 1260 days as well ?
 
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grafted branch

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I wish I could shorten this post but it's such an important subject.
No problem, I read your post several times, and I would agree with the thought of wrath, tribulation, and judgment that happened to Israel possibly prefiguring what will happen to the New Testament church. Revelation 11 may be about what will happen to the church but I would say it defiantly has far too much in common with John the Baptist to come to the conclusion that it’s only about the New Testament church.

I think you’re making a distinction between the measuring done by the kind of reed that is used in Revelation 11 (reed like unto a rod) and Revelation 21 (golden reed). If the temple in Revelation 11 = Revelation 21 then we would have to say that the body of Christ is simultaneously being measured with a golden reed and a reed like a rod. I haven’t done a word study on “reed” but if you have any scriptures that might support this idea I would like to see them.

The rod in Revelation 11:1-2 is symbolizing the fact that the time has come for the church to come under great tribulation (please read this entire post before you reject this statement) because of spiritual harlotry, which is going to separate the faithful from the unfaithful:

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There are many other verses and scriptures which speak about this time (Revelation 13:7 among them, with Revelation 13 telling us about the entities that will be bringing all Christians under great tribulation).

The rod signifies the fact that the time has come for the church to be chastened and cleansed, and purged of the unfaithful, i.e the harlots, those who are part of that part of the church which is a harlot (the way Judah was when Babylon invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple (that being a biblical type of what is coming).

In Revelation 11:1 we know the reed is like a rod but it doesn’t say if it’s being used as a rod or not; let’s assume it is being used as a rod or scepter. Revelation 21:27 says only those in the book of life are in the temple so if the Rod is symbolizing great tribulation then this tribulation only happens to those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

In Revelation 13:7 the beast is given to make war with the saints and overcome them. Revelation 21:27 says there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth. Either the saints are not the people in temple or the saints leave the temple and the beast overcomes them. No matter how I look at it, the saints in Revelation 13:7 can’t be those who are in the temple when it’s measured in Revelation 11:1 unless the temple in Revelation 11 does not = Revelation 21.
 
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Zao is life

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No problem, I read your post several times, and I would agree with the thought of wrath, tribulation, and judgment that happened to Israel possibly prefiguring what will happen to the New Testament church. Revelation 11 may be about what will happen to the church but I would say it defiantly has far too much in common with John the Baptist to come to the conclusion that it’s only about the New Testament church.

I think you’re making a distinction between the measuring done by the kind of reed that is used in Revelation 11 (reed like unto a rod) and Revelation 21 (golden reed). If the temple in Revelation 11 = Revelation 21 then we would have to say that the body of Christ is simultaneously being measured with a golden reed and a reed like a rod. I haven’t done a word study on “reed” but if you have any scriptures that might support this idea I would like to see them.



In Revelation 11:1 we know the reed is like a rod but it doesn’t say if it’s being used as a rod or not; let’s assume it is being used as a rod or scepter. Revelation 21:27 says only those in the book of life are in the temple so if the Rod is symbolizing great tribulation then this tribulation only happens to those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

In Revelation 13:7 the beast is given to make war with the saints and overcome them. Revelation 21:27 says there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth. Either the saints are not the people in temple or the saints leave the temple and the beast overcomes them. No matter how I look at it, the saints in Revelation 13:7 can’t be those who are in the temple when it’s measured in Revelation 11:1 unless the temple in Revelation 11 does not = Revelation 21.
Christ is our temple. Christ is in you. You are in the world. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places. Ever since Christ was on the earth (and He was the temple of God on earth), part of New Jerusalem is already on earth, and always has been (because we are now the temple of God on earth).

There's really no difference between measuring (or counting) the population of the temple of God on earth and counting the population of those who have died and are in heaven with Christ, and measuring the population of the total in New Jerusalem.

The holy city and the Temple of God
are populated by those who are in Christ.

If the saints on earth are being attacked by the beast, then the temple of God is being attacked. Nero did the same thing, and this is why Preterists will insist that because his name = 6 6 6 spelled in Hebrew, they therefore claim it was talking about him, and it's all past. There are huge problems with that theory which I won't go into in this thread.

I think it was @TribulationSigns who linked the measuring reed used to measure the temple in Revelation 11:1-2 with the measuring reed used to measure New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.

Both are measuring instruments,
but the one in Revelation 11:1-2 is like a rod, because in Revelation 11:1-2 John is being told to measure the temple of God immediately before or just as the events of the great tribulation begin to unfold - and it's the saints who have gone through great tribulation who are seen in heaven (Revelation 7:13-14).

And though it is not stated explicitly in Revelation 7:9-17, we know that those saints are being seen by John in the holy city, New Jerusalem, in the New Heavens and New Earth by the key words used:

Revelation 7
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.

6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.

So Revelation 7:13-16 is telling us that the faithful saints who will be alive on the earth during the time immediately preceding the return of Christ will enter into the promised land, the holy city, by having gone through, and come out of, great tribulation.

This is why, unlike the reed used to measure the holy city in Revelation 21:15, the reed used to measure the temple in Revelation 11:1-2 is like a rod.

But the metaphor used in both cases points to the same fact: The sheep are being counted, and the way the sheep are being counted in Revelation 11:1-2 is by fire, just as happened at the beginning of the church Age:

Zechariah 13
7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, and against the Man who is My companion, says the LORD of hosts; strike the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. And I will turn My hand on the little ones.
8 And it shall be in all the land, says the LORD, two parts in it shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left in it.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, It is My people; and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent.

So we are counseled and exhorted by Jesus. And we are warned by Jesus:

Revelation 2
21 And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

And we are encouraged by Jesus:

Revelation 3
8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, says these things:
9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

And we are promised by Jesus:

Revelation 3
26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
27 And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.
28 And I will give him the Morning Star.
29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
 
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Douggg

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Are you going to admit that "naos" is a spiritual temple?
the word can be used three ways. It does not have to exclusively be a metaphor, as a "spiriitual" temple..


From strong's numbers and Thayer's notes for "temple" in Revelation 11:1 ....
Thayer:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ


John was told not to measure the outer court, which would have been normally part of the whole enclosure.

Since there is no word for the whole enclosure minus the outer court, John was told to measure was the sanctuary and inner court by virtue of where the burnt offering altar was and the Jews were worshiping.
 
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Zao is life

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Are you going to admit that "naos" is a spiritual temple?
Nope, because that will involve him throwing away years and years of false theology books and admitting that for decades he's been propagating error.
 
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Zao is life

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the word can be used three ways. It does not have to exclusively be a metaphor, as a "spiriitual" temple..


From strong's numbers and Thayer's notes for "temple" in Revelation 11:1 ....
Thayer:
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ


John was told not to measure the outer court, which would have been normally part of the whole enclosure.

Since there is no word for the whole enclosure minus the outer court, John was told to measure was the sanctuary and inner court by virtue of where the altar was and the Jews were worshiping.
Why won't you answer him? Are you very, very frightened of the fact that the N.T only uses the word naos, which is only used in reference to the sanctuary of the temple in Jerusalem (i.e the holy courts and holy of holies), until the time of the tearing of the veil, and then afterwards only uses that word in reference to the church and the tabernacle in heaven?

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Douggg

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Why won't you answer him? Are you very, very frightened of the fact that the N.T only uses the word naos, which is only used in reference to the sanctuary of the temple in Jerusalem (i.e the holy courts and holy of holies), until the time of the tearing of the veil, and then afterwards only uses that word in reference to the church and the tabernacle in heaven?
What is the word in the New Testament for the sanctuary and inner court, minus the outer court ?

There is not one. While there is a word for the temple having the sanctuary, and both the inner and outer courts - strong's number G2411, as used in Matthew 24:1.

What John was told to measure was > naos + the inner court (the burnt offering altar and the people worshipping within the inner court).

The outer court which John was told not to measure was where the gentiles worshipped.




btw, naos used for the sanctuary only - it is talking about the dual chamber building - the holy room and the Holy of Holies room.

The holy room contained the menorah and the show bread table and the altar of incense.

The Holy of Holies room was separated by a large heavy curtain, that the could only be entered by the high priest, and only once a year.
 
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