NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL
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ralliann
christian
You don't understand what the discussion is about. The law involved with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob concerns the law of faith, as distinct from the law of works.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not a party to the law of Works, as they were not party to the Sinai covenant (kingdom of priests).
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Not only were they not subject to the law of the Sinai covenant, neither were the 12 Patriarchs.
Now I may not be correct about all of this, but I have presented plenty of evidence for it from the scriptures. But the two covenants made with Abraham are distinct IMO. The first covenant in Genesis 15 was not concerning any of his seed prior to the fourth generation.
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
This excludes Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and his brethren. Why Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel to take up his bones when God visited them. Two distinct covenants. No I am speaking of the law of Faith, vs the law of Moses which over four hundred years later. I don't know why it seems everyone makes those two covenants into one. Paul speaks of two covenants distinctly, and so does Hebrews. So too does the law itself.
Read it yourself. Note the bolded.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
This says nothing About anybody coming to the land except the forth generation of his seed. In fact Abraham is specifically told he will die and be buried. Nothing about God being their (his seeds) God etc.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Where is God covenanting here to give the land to him? It is to the fourth generation it is given. Acts 7:5 Read it.
And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Hebrews is even more thorough in this IMO.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
My take on this and Hebrews is The covenant made in Genesis 15 concerns his natural Seed. Genesis 17 concerns the Royal seed The kingdom promised Abraham.
But you are not seeing anything else in my posts but Moses law, and works.
I am not dispensationalist BTW.
The two inheritances only become one for the firstborn. Those which have both portions of inheritance
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ralliann
christian
Blood heritage has nothing to do with any of this, with the exception of Christ himself being made subject to the law of Moses. The Issue of genealogy was already shown to matter nothing. Not all that came out of Egypt were children of promise. It is not the natural seed but seed born of promise. This is about the promise made to ABRAHAM and God keeping that promise, due to an oath.
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- Nov 25, 2017
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Don't try to tell me I don't know what you are on about. I know exactly what you're saying, and it is fallacy.
You are still trying to 'create' a law involving the giving of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which that was the Promise God gave to Abraham that was NOT by ANY law, but only by Faith. God's Word does not treat our Faith as a work in the law, not any law. The 'law of faith' is an EXPRESSION. Paul confirmed this in Romans 4 when he said,
Rom 4:2-5
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
KJV
So you cannot create a law with believing The Gospel as a 'work'. That's your idea your pushing, and only basing it on an expression. So if you think your Faith on Christ is reckoned by 'debt', which is from the idea of paying for a work you did, then your Faith is no more by Grace, and that cannot be.
You forget the next verse there in Romans 3...
Rom 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV
The very point Paul makes is how The Promise to Abraham 430 years before the children of Israel came out of Egypt was NOT by the law, but by FAITH. I showed that in the Romans 4 Scripture I posted above, which is also taught by Paul in Galatians 3.
Gal 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV
That "covenant" that came AFTER the Promise, is the law, and it was given 430 years AFTER... Abraham was given the Promise. So you CANNOT make the Promise by Faith subject to the law!!! That is wrong to try and do that, and that is exactly... what you are trying to do.
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Guojing
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Thanks for sharing your understanding of what he is saying in that complex paragraph.
So do you think that understanding addressed what I have asked him?
When you read Acts 21:18-25, do you understand it as James saying
- All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
- Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.
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- Nov 25, 2017
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It's so easy to distinguish those here who have not actually studied all their Bible, because they do not understand about God's Birthright which involves The Gospel first given to Abraham.
The history of the Western Christian nations began with its founders of the ten lost tribes of Israel.
The majority of Christ's Church that made up the early nations in Asia Minor and Europe were from the scattered ten tribes that migrated westward after their captivity to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. That is what Lord Jesus meant when He said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. After God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, the "house of Israel" title ONLY applied to the northern ten tribes under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim.
2 Esdras 13
And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
The history of the Western Christian nations began with its founders of the ten lost tribes of Israel.
The majority of Christ's Church that made up the early nations in Asia Minor and Europe were from the scattered ten tribes that migrated westward after their captivity to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. That is what Lord Jesus meant when He said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. After God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, the "house of Israel" title ONLY applied to the northern ten tribes under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim.
2 Esdras 13
And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
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ralliann
christian
Sorry, I just now seen this because of Davey's post.
1.) To your first statement: It is one thing to say they are to keep it, and another to say they did keep it.
The temple still stood. All the laws regarding it stood with it. They could become ritually impure, and could defile the temple. Once it was gone, then the law cannot be kept period. Many here don't seem to understand all those laws were with regard to the temple and God dwelling among them.
Therefore, Paul lived as a Jew when among the Jew's (Jew first, as wrath was coming upon them first), and as a Gentile when among the Gentiles (then wrath upon the nations after his wrath on Jew's).
Temple law and ritual defilement could be spread to others. Jew's still attended the temple, and could still be defiled and defile the temple.
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. {ordinances: or, ceremonies.
2) To the second statement: The righteousness of Gentiles (Noachide) was taught in the synagogues. The teachings concerning this was not merely temporal, but also the Messianic kingdom. Noachide was not just about temporal righteousness of the nations, it was also eschatological. Them having a place in the world to come. The kingdom of heaven which Jesus preached.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Of course the twelve were apostle's to the Jew's. They were in a race to save as many as they could, before Gods wrath fell (John preached the coming wrath) and the temple was destroyed. Therefore of course they would not defile the temple. They preached to Jew's there as the apostles to the Jews.
There is no need to keep the rites of the worldly temple, it has vanished.
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ralliann
christian
Yes, I agree there is a distinction. But, what is the distinction about? I believe it is a distinction between covenants. We know Jesus is the passover of the new covenant yes?
Passover, and the feast of unleavened bread, are distinctly memorials to the fulfilment of what covenant? The covenant made with Abraham. Jew and Gentile are sharing equally in the fulfilment of the Abrahamic promises. The feast of weeks also celebrates the Abrahamic promises as heirs in the land promised them Gen 15. These things are earthly shadows. For Jews to "become" uncircumcised" disconnects from the Abrahamic promises, and Gentiles "becoming" circumcised disconnects Gentiles from the promise made to Abraham Gen 17 (kings of people from Sarah, kings from Abraham) The royal covenant. These appointed times belong to the covenant promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So distinctions, yes. But to show there is no distinction between the two in the world to come in Christ Jesus.
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Again, much of that thinking doesn't really align with God's Word.
God's Promises to the seed of Israel have remained with the 'seed' of Israel, that is, the believing remnant of the seed of Israel that were scattered among the Gentiles (Romans 11). And both the believing 'seed' of Israel and believing Gentiles, together, have become Christ's Church and God's Israel, the believing Gentiles being grafted in per Apostle Paul in Romans 11. This is why in Ephesians 2, (which I have to keep reminding brethren about), Apostle Paul used the term "commonwealth of Israel" applied to believing Gentiles grafted in.
This means God's Birthright promises LEFT... unbelieving Israelites and continued with the 'believing' seed of Israel, which in the historical Christian nations has been made up mainly of the the scattered ten tribes and Jewish converts to Christ Jesus, among the Gentiles, becoming the western Christian nations of history after the Passion of Christ.
So the event of some of the unbelievers of orthodox Jews turning to Jesus at His future return, is about just those, the UNBELIEVING JEWS, and not about the majority of the 'seed' of Israel which in majority already today represent Christ's Church with believing Gentiles.
God's Birthright is about His promises first given to Abraham, which involved The Gospel of Jesus Christ especially, the Promise by Faith which God counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Just because many of the seed of Old Testament Israel didn't believe did not mean the remnant whom God chose among Israel rejected The Gospel. God forbid, because only through that remnant did The Gospel pass.
But God's Birthright also includes certain blessings, like ruling the gates of one's enemies, plenty of corn and wine, the best land resources, a king line, and inheritance of the lands God showed to Abraham. When the unbelieving Jews in the holy land rejected Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, most of God's Birthright blessings were removed from them, and given to another 'nation' that would bring forth the fruits of God's vineyard (Matthew 21 with Jesus' parable of the husbandmen).
Per 1 Chronicles 5, the majority of God's Birthright blessings would go to the sons of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh). Upon Ephraim is where that Birthright stopped per God's Word, there being no more transfers of it written. Thus it is still TODAY supposed to be upon Ephraim, the head tribe over the ten tribes of the old northern kingdom of Israel. However, Ephraim and the ten northern tribes of Israel were scattered out of the holy lands long ago, but they migrated to new lands, Asia Minor and Europe, and would become the historical Christian nations, fulfilling the Genesis 48 prophecy to Ephraim that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". And Jacob said to let his name (Israel) be named upon the two lads, Ephraim and Manasseh (Genesis 48).
The king line per God's Birthright was to stay with the tribe of Judah, per 1 Chronicles 5. But in Jerusalem today, since the days of Jeremiah the prophet, there has been no king of the house of David there on a throne. Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, ended that house of David reign specifically in Jerusalem, even to this day (notice I said 'specifically in Jerusalem'. David's throne is STILL on earth today, just not there in Jerusalem anymore.) That throne has to still be on earth today, because Genesis 49:10 reveals it would remain with Judah until "Shiloh" comes, which Shiloh used there is a symbol for Lord Jesus Christ.
The blessings of ruling the gates (goings and comings) of one's enemies has also been removed from the holy land, and is now with the great military powers in the West. Same with the blessing of the best lands and resources, plenty of corn (wheat) and wine. Those blessings followed the majority of where the ten tribes of Israel were scattered.
Many of the Christian clergy don't have a clue about this because of being deceived by the Jews, as the Jews hate this being revealed because it shows what their rebellion against Christ lost for them. Many of Christian clergy that do have an inkling of all this are afraid to speak of it in their pulpits because they could lose their job and pensions if they taught it. Though few, there are pastors who know about this moving of God's Birthright and David's throne to the Christian West, but good luck trying to get them to talk about it. A good majority of them just totally dismiss this matter of God's Birthright and are deceived by the false Jew's teachings on this history.
Or you might hear their spill on it from propaganda designed to make you think it's a false history. Easy to make them stutter though, simply ask them to explain how Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" per Genesis 48:19, and how the Genesis 49:10 prophecy applied to Judah's continued royal sceptre rule on earth for the latter days applies to Christ's Church.
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ralliann
christian
How so? We see two covenants spoken of in Galatians and Hebrews. But you do not address how my thoughts on those is unbiblical
I am not seeing a seed of Israel as distinct from the seed of Abraham? Again I think the difference between us is one of covenant. how are you distinguishing the seed of Israel from the seed of Abraham here? Everything flows through those two covenants. Jacob and Isaac were co-heirs with Abraham, sharing in the promises.
The faith of the uncircumcision is distinctly founded upon the promises Made to our father Abraham. I don't know why Abraham is left out in the above. The time of the Gentiles is based upon the promise to Abraham in Genesis 17 Kings of people from Sarah, and kings from Abrahams loins. Just as there was a time for the promise to the natural seed in Gen 15 There is a time for the second covenant to come to pass as well.
Gentiles are not party to the the covenant of Genesis 15.
Exactly. A covenant concerning kings which is the one seed
The other concerning the fourth generation of his seed. Genesis 17 is to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Nations.
The birthright of the firstborn is a double inheritance. Two covenants .......The church of the firstborn. The line of kings are KING/PRIESTS
All things are flowing from the covenant promises made with Abraham.
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It's clear you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, showing you need more Bible study overall. And I did address the issue of distinctions between the seed of Israel and Christ's Church, even showing how the promises to Abraham have moved to Christ's Church, and how God's Israel now is Christ's Church. But I didn't leave the unbelieving Jews out, because Paul shows in Romans 11 that God is going to remove the blindness away from The Gospel that He put upon them, and they also will be saved by Jesus when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete.
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ralliann
christian
The distinction of seed are in the covenants. Each having a due time of being fulfilled.
1st covenant Genesis 15
Bondage
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.Gen.15
Abraham will die
And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
This promise is to the 4th generation of his seed
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Isaac, Jacob, and the patriarchs are not the seed here.
Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Ge 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
These all died in faith not having received what was promised.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Joseph knew their inheritance was after this world and this life. Hence Abraham was tested with Isaac. Genesis 17 is the covenant that is the Royal seed. Both of Nations and those from Abraham's loins.
Acts 7:3
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
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All you've done is pick n' choose a selective group of Scriptures to 'try'... and prove there's no prophecy about God's Birthright continuing from... Abraham, all the way down to Ephraim.
God speaking to Abraham...
Gen 17:19
19 And God said, "Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."
KJV
By that one verse right there, your whole theory just fell flat on its face!
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Look at this brethren...
Gen 49:1-2
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father."
KJV
So this prophecy is for the "last days", not for back in Jacob's day...
Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Per God's Birthright in 1 Chronicles 5, the tribe of Judah was to be the king line for the children of Israel.
That last days prophecy for Judah says the "sceptre", which is about a royal staff given to a king or queen at their coronation, shall not depart from the care of the tribe of Judah, not until "Shiloh" comes. The town of Shiloh in Old Testament times is where the Tabernacle worship was first setup in the land of Canaan when the Israelites migrated there. It is used as a symbol for our Lord Jesus Christ in this verse.
To summarize that idea then, it is saying one of the tribe of Judah (house of David also a requirement given later on) would sit upon the throne over Israel until Jesus' future return. That means TODAY, somewhere on earth, a descendant of the house of David is sitting upon that earthly throne!
Many preachers instead teach the false tradition that that throne was moved... to Heaven, and that Jesus is now sitting upon it in Heaven. Not so. That throne is an earthly throne, and God even promised His servant king David that there would never fail a man of Israel to sit upon it for all generations (2 Samuel 7).
Gen 49:1-2
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father."
KJV
So this prophecy is for the "last days", not for back in Jacob's day...
Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
Per God's Birthright in 1 Chronicles 5, the tribe of Judah was to be the king line for the children of Israel.
That last days prophecy for Judah says the "sceptre", which is about a royal staff given to a king or queen at their coronation, shall not depart from the care of the tribe of Judah, not until "Shiloh" comes. The town of Shiloh in Old Testament times is where the Tabernacle worship was first setup in the land of Canaan when the Israelites migrated there. It is used as a symbol for our Lord Jesus Christ in this verse.
To summarize that idea then, it is saying one of the tribe of Judah (house of David also a requirement given later on) would sit upon the throne over Israel until Jesus' future return. That means TODAY, somewhere on earth, a descendant of the house of David is sitting upon that earthly throne!
Many preachers instead teach the false tradition that that throne was moved... to Heaven, and that Jesus is now sitting upon it in Heaven. Not so. That throne is an earthly throne, and God even promised His servant king David that there would never fail a man of Israel to sit upon it for all generations (2 Samuel 7).
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In simple black and white...
1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV
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ralliann
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In simple black and white...
1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV
let me also highlight
1 Chron 5:1-2
Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
Further more the Greek LXX says
1chr 5:1 The sons of Reuben, the firstborn of Israel (for he was firstborn; but because of his going up to his fathers couch his father gave his blessing to his son Joseph even the son of Isreal; and he was not reckoned as firstborn; for Judas was very mighty among his brethren and one to be a ruler out of him; but the blessing was Joseph's).
Seems to be a distinction between the birth right and the blessing.
Ge 27:36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?
The seed promised Sarah is kings of people.
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