New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

tranquil · Dec 29, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You've failed to see both the Markan Sandwich and the metaphor in the passages you are quoting.

A "Markan Sandwich" is a style which scholars noticed employed by Mark in his gospel.

What very few realize is that the "Markan Sandwiches" employed by Mark in his gospel are nothing new: this same style found in the narrative in Mark's gospel is very often employed in biblical literature, and is especially prevalent in apocalyptic/prophetic literature, as well as in Psalms and Proverbs.

Failure to notice and recognize "Markan Sandwiches", together with failure to notice and recognize metaphor when it is metaphor in apocalyptic/prophetic literature, has led to an enormous amount of misinterpretation of apocalyptic/prophetic scripture, and has resulted in mountains of faulty eschatological nonsense being propagated by Christians.

An example of a "Markan Sandwich" in apocalyptic/prophetic literature is the closing sentence in Hosea 1, (which is a major part of the theme of the prophecies given in this post in order to give examples of the opening statements):

Hosea 1
4 And the LORD said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease.
5 And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel.

"For great shall be the day of Jezreel" is a repeat of what was said in verse 5, and closes the theme of the destruction of the house of Israel (i.e the Northern kingdom), and has nothing to do with the rest of the closing verses (verses 10 to 11a, which is talking about the restoration of the house of Israel and the gathering of the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together).

Though not called a "Markan Sandwich" because Markan Sandwiches were only named thus when noticed and recognized by scholars in Mark's gospel, nevertheless what you just looked at is a "Markan Sandwich", which interrupts a subject that was introduced, with another subject, and then closes with the first subject. Mark's gospel is full of them, but biblical apocalyptic/prophetic literature, Psalms and Proverbs are also full of them, and you are about to see an important example below:-

Example of a "Markan Sandwich" in Ezekiel chapters 36-39

Ezekiel chapter 36 opens the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 closes the same subject; and whereas Ezekiel 36:16-38 & Ezekiel 39:23-39 is one and the same prophecy and is referring to Israel, Ezekiel 38:1 to Ezekiel 39:22, which is placed in-between the two sections by Ezekiel, is referring to the Gog/Magog nations.

Take note: Ezekiel 39:23-29 is repeating what was said in Ezekiel 36:16-38.

Even though it has never been given that name when applied to literature outside of Mark's gospel, and was not recognized by scholars until it was seen in Mark's gospel, what you see above is nevertheless a "Markan Sandwich" being employed by Ezekiel.

Note: The subject which was introduced in-between Ezekiel 36, which opens the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 (closing the same theme) is not part of the same subject: The two subjects are related to one another, but are not part of the same subject. This can be clearly seen by the fact that two completely different nations are being referred to:

Whereas Ezekiel 36:16-38/Ezekiel 39:23-39 is referring to Israel, Ezekiel 38:1 to Ezekiel 39:22 is referring to the Gog/Magog nations.

Now compare the two prophetic passages below, because the two passages below are talking about the same thing:

Hosea 1
11a Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land.

Ezekiel 37
15 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
16 And you, son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions.
17 And join them to one another into one stick. And they shall become one in your hand.
18 And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you?
19 Say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and will make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.
20 And the sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes.
21 And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and will bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be king to them all. And they shall not still be two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Nor shall they be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in them where they sinned, and will cleanse them. And they shall be to Me for a people, and I will be to them for God.
24 And David My servant shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments, and obey My laws, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, the land in which your fathers have lived. And they shall dwell in it, even they and their sons, and the sons of their sons for ever. And My servant David shall be their ruler forever.
26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27 And My tabernacle shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the nations shall know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever.

Now compare the above two passages with what is written below:

Ezekiel 38 (God talking to Gog/Magog)
" 8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.)"

Note: The "he" in the above sentence is referring to Jacob, to Israel.

Continuing with God's words to Gog/Magog:

" 10 So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan.
11 And you shall say, I will go up to the land of open spaces. I will go to those at rest, who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and there are no bars nor gates to them,
12 in order to take a spoil, and to steal a prize; to turn your hand on the inhabited waste places, and on the people gathered out of the nations, who have gotten cattle and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

In other words, (and keeping with the context of what is being said in the passage and not attempting to interpret it) Gog and Magog's war against the people who had already been gathered back into their own land is not part of the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel (seen in Ezekiel 36:16-18 and Ezekiel 39:23-29).

The "Markan Sandwich" employed in Ezekiel chapters 36-39 separates (a) the Gog-Magog war against the above people after they have been restored, from (b) the time of their restoration.

THE SAME METAPHOR BEING USED IN DIFFERENT PASSAGES

Note: It's only metaphor. Whether or not we place the two passages below in the same point in time in human history will depend on whether or not we are Preterists or Partial-Preterists or Amillennialists or Premillenialists. But the metaphor itself is only metaphor, and the metaphor does not ever of necessity mean that two passages that use the same metaphor are referring to the same things at the same point in time in human history:

Ezekiel 39
17 And you, son of man, So says the Lord Jehovah. Speak to the bird of every wing, and to every beast of the field: Gather yourselves and come; gather yourselves from all around to My sacrifice that I sacrifice for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, so that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the rulers of the earth, of rams, lambs, goats, and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And you shall eat fat until you are full, and drink blood until you are drunk, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 And you shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, all the men of war, says the Lord Jehovah.
21 And I will set My glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

IN CLOSING

The final sentence in Revelation 19:21, "And all the birds were filled from their flesh" is closing the prophecy with a repeat of what had been said earlier. It's a Markan Sandwich.

I like this quite a bit, the Ezek 36 connection to Ezek 39 especially - which then includes Edom in the Gog coalition (which Edom is mentioned in the Psalm 83 war also and in Joel 3).

As to whether it 'Is' or 'Isn't' the 'Real' Gog war, the upshot remains the same IMO. The 5th Trumpet is 5 months. If the start is the 1st Trumpet, then this 'looks' like the Gog war - the 7 months of cleanup in Ezek 39:12 correlates to the 5 months - 5 months + 7 months = 1 year/ 'Day of the Lord's wrath.

Thus the 6th Trumpet would represent the joining of the 2 sticks (the Lord is in the sanctuary a la Psalm 68:15-24). Apostate 'Israel' (10 tribes) is joined to faithful Judah (2 tribes).

But, Hosea 1 seems to be describing both the beast from the sea & earth and the real 2 sticks joining.

10 (horns)/ 'tribe' 'Israel' commits the abomination

'Israel' is punished (by 'Gog' or real Gog's Locusts) and 'scattered' ("Jezreel" means 'God sows/ scatters [seed]').

After being 'scattered', then they are 'gathered' to 1 head a la Matthew 24:29-31. This is the 'real' rapture - not being 'whisked away', but being gathered to 1 head (Jesus).

For the unfaithful tares, there is the joining of the 10 apostate 'horns' to 2 apostate (previously 'faithful') 'Judah' 'tribes'. The False Prophet is the one who joins the 10 horns to the 2 horns. (I imagine it the politician who will join the 'populists' with the 'progressives' (right & left). The 'Israel' in Hosea 1 doesn't really fit best as historical 10 tribe Israel. It fits better as a metaphor for unfaithful/ faithful Christians whereby nation-state Israel is on the same unfaithful track as apostate Catholicism.

To be able to deceive the elect (Matthew 24:24), there has to be an abomination (sometime during the Seals), then the scattering of 'Israel' (the unfaithful) (Trumpets 1-4, 5), then gathering to 1 head (6th Trumpet) and this head would be the antichrist &/ or false prophet. After the beast is disposed of then the remaining survivors would be joined to the faithful.

The 6th Bowl war ('Armageddon') seems to be the 'real' Gog war whereby the people who survived the beast are the people in Ezekiel 38

10“ ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.

It's probably the case that it means literally Gog attacks the surviving people who were gathered at the 6th Trumpet, and also after the 1000 years as in Rev 19.

Zao is life · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
No, it is not the same type of logic.

That John was told to measure the temple - seems to be an indicator that temple in Revelation 11:1 will be of a different size than the temple that John was familiar with.

I suppose then that New Jerusalem was also measured because it was a different size than the one John was familiar with?

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I suppose then that New Jerusalem was also measured because it was a different size than the one John was familiar with?

I certainly agree.

Separately, regarding the temple that John was told to measure.

I think that John was told to measure the temple because it will be downsized, especially the sanctuary building, from what John was accustomed to seeing in his day.

The temple in John's day took decades to build. But because the end times temple that the Antichrist will sit in has to be built in a compressed amount of time, I think the sanctuary building will be a minimal size and perhaps a smaller court - to get the animal sacrifices going as soon as possible.

The minimum size for the sanctuary, if they follow the pattern coming out of Egypt - would be about 30ft by 15ft - two chambers. Which that could be constructed quiet quickly.

Zao is life · Dec 30, 2021

tranquil said:
I like this quite a bit, the Ezek 36 connection to Ezek 39 especially - which then includes Edom in the Gog coalition (which Edom is mentioned in the Psalm 83 war also and in Joel 3).

As to whether it 'Is' or 'Isn't' the 'Real' Gog war, the upshot remains the same IMO. The 5th Trumpet is 5 months. If the start is the 1st Trumpet, then this 'looks' like the Gog war - the 7 months of cleanup in Ezek 39:12 correlates to the 5 months - 5 months + 7 months = 1 year/ 'Day of the Lord's wrath.

Thus the 6th Trumpet would represent the joining of the 2 sticks (the Lord is in the sanctuary a la Psalm 68:15-24). Apostate 'Israel' (10 tribes) is joined to faithful Judah (2 tribes).

But, Hosea 1 seems to be describing both the beast from the sea & earth and the real 2 sticks joining.

10 (horns)/ 'tribe' 'Israel' commits the abomination

'Israel' is punished (by 'Gog' or real Gog's Locusts) and 'scattered' ("Jezreel" means 'God sows/ scatters [seed]').

After being 'scattered', then they are 'gathered' to 1 head a la Matthew 24:29-31. This is the 'real' rapture - not being 'whisked away', but being gathered to 1 head (Jesus).

For the unfaithful tares, there is the joining of the 10 apostate 'horns' to 2 apostate (previously 'faithful') 'Judah' 'tribes'. The False Prophet is the one who joins the 10 horns to the 2 horns. (I imagine it the politician who will join the 'populists' with the 'progressives' (right & left). The 'Israel' in Hosea 1 doesn't really fit best as historical 10 tribe Israel. It fits better as a metaphor for unfaithful/ faithful Christians whereby nation-state Israel is on the same unfaithful track as apostate Catholicism.

To be able to deceive the elect (Matthew 24:24), there has to be an abomination (sometime during the Seals), then the scattering of 'Israel' (the unfaithful) (Trumpets 1-4, 5), then gathering to 1 head (6th Trumpet) and this head would be the antichrist &/ or false prophet. After the beast is disposed of then the remaining survivors would be joined to the faithful.

The 6th Bowl war ('Armageddon') seems to be the 'real' Gog war whereby the people who survived the beast are the people in Ezekiel 38

10“ ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.

It's probably the case that it means literally Gog attacks the surviving people who were gathered at the 6th Trumpet, and also after the 1000 years as in Rev 19.

Thank you. That's quite intricate, and probably the reason why I don't attempt to work out the specifics of how things will unfold at the end of this current Age, or the timelines.

There are some themes which are repeated over and over in the prophetic books of the Bible (as can be seen by your post): The restoration of the once judged house of Israel to God, the restoration of both Judah and Israel to the land God gave to Jacob, the joining of Israel & Judah into one (which can only take place in Christ), the judgment of nations that surround them, and the Tabernacle of God being amongst them afterwards forevermore. In Revelation there is a gathering against "the camp of the saints" on the part of Gog/Magog, after a prolonged period of peace. Same thing in Ezekiel.

BUT since there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ and in Christ all are one, my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider that this has been taking place (present, ongoing tense) since the gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles, circa A.D 34:

In Romans 9:22-26, Paul includes the Gentiles in Hosea 1:10-11; and The Hebrew of Genesis 48:19, where Jacob is speaking to Joseph regarding @tranquil I corrected this afterward: Ephraim, uses the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" (translated into most English language Bibles as, "a multitude of nations":

Genesis 48:19 (Young's literal translation)
19 And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

The house of Israel (the 10 tribes) is very frequently collectively called "Ephraim" in prophetic scripture (example Isaiah 7:8).

In Hosea 1, God was talking only to "Ephraim" or the house of Israel's 10 Northern tribes, not to Judah (not to the Jews or Benjamin), neither was God talking to the small remnant of "Ephraim" that escaped to Judah when Assyria destroyed (the Northern kingdom of) Israel: Hosea 1 is clearly talking only about those who were exiled and scattered among the nations.

Over 2,700 years later, where is "Ephraim" i.e the 10 Northern tribes regarding whom Hosea prophesied in Hosea 1? Where indeed, because in the nations to where they have been scattered, their descendants have intermarried with Gentiles to such an extent that no one can prove anymore that he is a genetic descendant of one of the scattered 10 tribes that God spoke to in Hosea 1 (regardless of the claims of some people in Anglo-Saxon nations, or any other claims).

No one can prove he is descended, or partially descended from "Ephraim". "Ephraim's" seed has become "the fullness of the Gentiles", i.e "a multitude of nations".

So how does "Ephraim"'s seed, whom God spoke to in Hosea 1 (and especially verses 10-11 of Hosea 1) get restored to God, and how is the house of Israel and the house of Judah joined into one stick?

Galatians 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.
28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Is it any wonder that Paul included the Gentiles in the fulfillment of Hosea 1:10-11 when he quoted that part of Hosea's prophecy in Romans 9:22-26?

So if this is how (and it is how) all are joined into one nation (in Christ), then this has been taking place (present, ongoing tense) since the first century.

So my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider the prophecy in Ezekiel regarding Israel's restoration to God and the joining of Israel & Judah into one stick, being fulfilled in a spiritual sense, and the Gog/Magog war against "the camp of the saints" (Revelation 20:7-9) @tranquil I corrected this too: Gog/Magog war against the camp of the saints occurring immediately before the return of Christ.

BUT Ezekiel 36-39 fits Revelation 20 like a hand in a glove, and though my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider a spiritual fulfillment of the restoration mentioned in Ezekiel, yet for two or three reasons which I won't give (my post here is too long already), my human intellect does not (without any reservations) grant me the liberty to consider the millennium of Revelation 20 symbolic of this current Age, rather than literal.

So I just yield my human intellect to God and wait on Him, and aside from what I just posted here, I don't try to work out specifics of how things are going to unfold in-between the rise of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and the destruction of Satan and death in the LOF, or how long that time-period is in the earth's clock.

Zao is life · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
I certainly agree.

Separately, regarding the temple that John was told to measure.

I think that John was told to measure the temple because it will be downsized, especially the sanctuary building, from what John was accustomed to seeing in his day.

The temple in John's day took decades to build. But because the end times temple that the Antichrist will sit in has to be built in a compressed amount of time, I think the sanctuary building will be a minimal size and perhaps a smaller court - to get the animal sacrifices going as soon as possible.

The minimum size for the sanctuary, if they follow the pattern coming out of Egypt - would be about 30ft by 15ft - two chambers. Which that could be constructed quiet quickly.

I disagree that New Jerusalem was measured because it was a different size to the one John was familiar with. My question was hypothetical.

New Jerusalem is populated by the saints. It's twelve foundations have the names of the 12 apostles written on them, just as Ephesians tells us that the apostles are the foundation of the church; and New Jerusalem is called both the bride of Christ and the Lamb's wife. New Jerusalem can only be "measured" in terms of counting the number of Christ's sheep in it. I suppose you want the saints who populate the New Jerusalem to be measured too, like you want the saints in the New Testament Temple to be measured?

You are failing to see the metaphor again.

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I disagree that New Jerusalem was measured because it was a different size to the one John was familiar with. My question was hypothetical.

New Jerusalem is populated by the saints. It's twelve foundations have the names of the 12 apostles written on them, just as Ephesians tells us that the apostles are the foundation of the church; and New Jerusalem is called both the bride of Christ and the Lamb's wife. New Jerusalem can only be "measured" in terms of counting the number of Christ's sheep in it. I suppose you want the saints who populate the New Jerusalem to be measured too, like you want the saints in the New Testament Temple to be measured?

You are failing to see the metaphor again.

The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is a separate issue than John's measuring of the temple in Revelation 11.

Separate by over a thousand years.

The temple in Revelation 11 is not a "New Testament Teimple". It will be a physical temple, on the temple mount, in Jerusalem.

Zao is life · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is a separate issue than John's measuring of the temple in Revelation 11.

Separate by over a thousand years.

The temple in Revelation 11 is not a "New Testament Teimple". It will be a physical temple, on the temple mount, in Jerusalem.

Hope you don't get knocked over by the bus coming round the corner because you're standing in the middle of the road waiting for the bus to come from the other direction.

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Hope you don't get knocked over by the bus coming round the corner because you're standing in the middle of the road waiting for the bus to come from the other direction.

That sounds like a metaphor.

tranquil · Dec 30, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Thank you. That's quite intricate, and probably the reason why I don't attempt to work out the specifics of how things will unfold at the end of this current Age, or the timelines.

There are some themes which are repeated over and over though in the prophetic books of the Bible (as can be seen by your post): The restoration of the once judged house of Israel to God, the restoration of both Judah and Israel to the land God gave to Jacob, the joining of Israel & Judah into one (which can only take place in Christ), the judgment of nations that surround them, and the Tabernacle of God being amongst them afterwards forevermore. In Revelation there is a gathering against "the camp of the saints" on the part of Gog/Magog, after a prolonged period of peace. Same thing in Ezekiel.

BUT since there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ and in Christ all are one, my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider that this has been taking place (present, ongoing tense) since the gospel began to be preached to the Gentiles, circa A.D 34:

In Romans 9:22-26, Paul includes the Gentiles in Hosea 1:10-11; and The Hebrew of Genesis 48:19, where Jacob is speaking to Joseph regarding @tranquil I corrected this afterward: Ephraim, uses the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" (translated into most English language Bibles as, "a multitude of nations":

Genesis 48:19 (Young's literal translation)
19 And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'

The house of Israel (the 10 tribes) is very frequently collectively called "Ephraim" in prophetic scripture (example Isaiah 7:8).

In Hosea 1, God was talking only to "Ephraim" or the house of Israel's 10 Northern tribes, not to Judah (not to the Jews or Benjamin), neither was God talking to the small remnant of "Ephraim" that escaped to Judah when Assyria destroyed (the Northern kingdom of) Israel: Hosea 1 is clearly talking only about those who were exiled and scattered among the nations.

Over 2,700 years later, where is "Ephraim" i.e the 10 Northern tribes regarding whom Hosea prophesied in Hosea 1? Where indeed, because in the nations to where they have been scattered, their descendants have intermarried with Gentiles to such an extent that no one can prove anymore that he is a genetic descendant of one of the scattered 10 tribes that God spoke to in Hosea 1 (regardless of the claims of some people in Anglo-Saxon nations and other claims).

No one can prove he is descended, or partially descended from from "Ephraim". "Ephraim's seed has become "the fullness of the Gentiles", i.e "a multitude of nations.

So how does "Ephraim"'s seed, whom God spoke to in Hosea 1 (and especially verses 10-11 of Hosea 1) get restored to God, and how is the house of Israel and the house of Judah joined into one stick?

Galatians 3
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.
28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Is it any wonder that Paul included the Gentiles in the fulfillment of Hosea 1:10-11 when he quoted that part of Hosea's prophecy in Romans 9:22-26?

So if this is how (and it is how) all are joined into one nation (in Christ), then this has been taking place (present, ongoing tense) since the first century.

So my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider the prophecy in Ezekiel regarding Israel's restoration to God and the joining of Israel & Judah into one stick, being fulfilled in a spiritual sense, and the Gog/Magog war against "the camp of the saints" (Revelation 20:7-9) @tranquil I corrected this too: Gog/Magog war against the camp of the saints occurring immediately before the return of Christ.

BUT Ezekiel 36-39 fits Revelation 20 like a hand in a glove, and though my human intellect grants me the liberty to consider a spiritual fulfillment of the restoration mentioned in Ezekiel, even still for two or three reasons which I won't give (my post here is too long already), my human intellect does not grant me the liberty to consider the millennium of Revelation 20 symbolic rather than literal.

So I just yield my human intellect to God and wait on Him, and aside from what I just posted here, I don't try to work out specifics of how things are going to unfold in-between the rise of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and the destruction of Satan and death in the LOF, or how long that time-period is in the earth's clock.

But Jesus' Olivet discourse in Matt 24 is the exact sequence in Hosea.

Hosea 1
2When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, He told him, “Go, take a prostitute as your wife and have children of adultery, because this land is flagrantly prostituting itself by departing from the LORD.”

Matt 24

15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Hosea 1
4Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel, for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

Matt 24

16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [Jezreel means 'God scatters']

Matt 24

23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

Rev 13

1Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

Hosea 1
11Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

Rev 13

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12 And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. 13And the second beast performed great signs to cause even fire from heaven to come down to earth in the presence of the people.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
No, it is not the same type of logic.

Yes, it is. Why would you not take Jesus holding seven stars in His right hand in the midst of seven candlesticks literally, but take John holding a reed to measure the temple of God, the altar and them that worship therein literally?

That John was told to measure the temple - seems to be an indicator that temple in Revelation 11:1 will be of a different size than the temple that John was familiar with.

You didn't answer my question about why he would literally measure "them that worship" in the temple with a physical reed. So, what is your answer to that question?

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see the location or type of temple that John was measuring by simply continuing to read to the end of the chapter.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
I certainly agree.

You agree "that New Jerusalem was also measured because it was a different size than the one John was familiar with"? What New Jerusalem was John familiar with besides the one referenced in Revelation 21?

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, it is. Why would you not take Jesus holding seven stars in His right hand in the midst of seven candlesticks literally, but take John holding a reed to measure the temple of God, the altar and them that worship therein literally?

What John saw of Jesus was literal, but what the seven stars and the seven candlesticks represented was other things.

The temple that John's was told to measure was literal and did not represent other things.

Spiritual Jew said:
You didn't answer my question about why he would literally measure "them that worship" in the temple with a physical reed. So, what is your answer to that question?

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

John was told to measure the temple - which was not empty - but had Jewish people worshipping in the temple court (yard) - gentiles were not allowed in the inner courtyard.

John was to measure the temple, which had activity within its court (yard), where the brazen altar is... where animal sacrifices take place. It appears as though John saw the temple as animal sacrifices were taking place, and Jewish priests conducting those.

Outside of the inner court yard, the outer courtyard was where the gentiles could go to worship. John was told not to measure the outer court. Then the angel informs John that the city of Jerusalem will be tread under foot by gentiles for 42 months.
________________________________

I will spell it out for you. The first half of the 7 years, during the 1260 days of the two witnesses, the Jews, with their perceived messiah the Antichrist as their King of Israel, will be doing animal sacrifices in a quickly erected temple complex - downsized, the reason John was told to measure it.

We aren't revealed of the measurement John found it to be. That will become known when the temple is actually built, forthcoming.

The complex with have a burnt altar in it, for burning the animal sacrifices. There will be Jewish priests conducting the animal sacrifices.

Outside of the inner courtyard, will be the outer courtyard, where gentiles will come and worship there.

That will go on for about three years, until the Antichrist stops the sacrifices, goes into the temple (sanctuary), sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. He flips out because Satan will have convinced him so.

Later after the revealed man of sin is killed, and brought back to life as the beast, gentiles will be convinced of his claim of having achieved God-hood and will take over and control the city of Jerusalem for 42 months until Jesus returns.

Spiritual Jew said:
Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see the location or type of temple that John was measuring by simply continuing to read to the end of the chapter.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

John was not told to measure the temple of God - which is heaven.

The temple in Revelation 11 is on earth, where the holy city of Jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles for forty two months.

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You agree "that New Jerusalem was also measured because it was a different size than the one John was familiar with"? What New Jerusalem was John familiar with besides the one referenced in Revelation 21?

John was familiar with the Jerusalem of his day, the size of it.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
What John saw of Jesus was literal, but what the seven stars and the seven candlesticks represented was other things.

The temple that John's was told to measure was literal and did not represent other things.

How convenient for you to come to that conclusion. What is your evidence to back it up?

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

John was told to measure the temple - which was not empty - but had Jewish people worshipping in the temple court (yard) - gentiles were not allowed in the inner courtyard.

John was to measure the temple, which had activity within its court (yard), where the brazen altar is... where animal sacrifices take place. It appears as though John saw the temple as animal sacrifices were taking place, and Jewish priests conducting those.

Outside of the inner court yard, the outer courtyard was where the gentiles could go to worship. John was told not to measure the outer court. Then the angel informs John that the city of Jerusalem will be tread under foot by gentiles for 42 months.
________________________________

I will spell it out for you. The first half of the 7 years, during the 1260 days of the two witnesses, the Jews, with their perceived messiah the Antichrist as their King of Israel, will be doing animal sacrifices in a quickly erected temple complex - downsized, the reason John was told to measure it.

We aren't revealed of the measurement John found it to be. That will become known when the temple is actually built, forthcoming.

The complex with have a burnt altar in it, for burning the animal sacrifices. There will be Jewish priests conducting the animal sacrifices.

Outside of the inner courtyard, will be the outer courtyard, where gentiles will come and worship there.

That will go on for about three years, until the Antichrist stops the sacrifices, goes into the temple (sanctuary), sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. He flips out because Satan will have convinced him so.

Later after the revealed man of sin is killed, and brought back to life as the beast, gentiles will be convinced of his claim of having achieved God-hood and will take over and control the city of Jerusalem for 42 months until Jesus returns.

You said all of this without even answering my question. Amazing. I asked you why he would literally measure "them that worship" in the temple with a physical reed? Nothing you said here answers that question. You only talked about him measuring the temple itself, which is not what I asked about. I'm asking you why he would have to physically measure "them that worship therein" with a reed? What does that mean if it's meant to be taken in a literal sense? Do you think it means he had to measure the height of each worshiper in the temple or what?

John was not told to measure the temple of God - which is heaven.

So, you think John was trying to confuse his readers by showing the location of the temple of God as being in heaven?

The temple in Revelation 11 is on earth, where the holy city of Jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles for forty two months.

Earthly Jerusalem is not the holy city. Far from it. Once again you're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you.

Revelation 21:And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
John was familiar with the Jerusalem of his day, the size of it.

We're talking about the New Jerusalem here, not the Jerusalem of his day. Fullness of the Gentiles had sarcastically said: "I suppose then that New Jerusalem was also measured because it was a different size than the one John was familiar with?" and you agreed with that (even though he was just being facetious). Notice that he only mentioned the New Jerusalem there and he said nothing at all about earthly Jerusalem. So, you agreeing with him comes across as if you believed that John was familiar with some other New Jerusalem.

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You said all of this without even answering my question. Amazing. I asked you why he would literally measure "them that worship" in the temple with a physical reed? Nothing you said here answers that question. You only talked about him measuring the temple itself, which is not what I asked about. I'm asking you why he would have to physically measure "them that worship therein" with a reed? What does that mean if it's meant to be taken in a literal sense? Do you think it means he had to measure the height of each worshiper in the temple or what?

You do not understand the verse, and then based on that misunderstanding, you ask a presumptuous question. Your question did not include the altar, which was also in the verse.

I responded with what John was told to measure, and the reason for the inclusion of the altar, and them worshiping within the temple inner court (implied by the next verse of being told not to measure the outer court).

It should be obvious to anyone reading the verse that John was not told to measure the height of each individual worshiper.

You have to remember that when someone says "the temple", sometimes it infers the temple sanctuary building only, consisting of the Holy chamber and the Holy of Holies chamber. And sometimes it refers to the temple complex of everything within the temple walls.

John was told to measure the temple complex, excluding the outer court.

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you think John was trying to confuse his readers by showing the location of the temple of God as being in heaven?

Did you read what I wrote? John was not told to measure the heavenly temple of God. But the one here on earth, where Jerusalem is.

Spiritual Jew said:
Earthly Jerusalem is not the holy city. Far from it. Once again you're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you.

Revelation 21:And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Do you really think that the gentiles will trample down the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, in Revelation 21 ?

The earthly city in Revelation 11 is called the holy city because that is where Jews will be worshiping God, during the first half of the 7 years. But it gets trampled down by the gentiles when the Antichrist becomes the beast.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
You do not understand the verse, and then based on that misunderstanding, you ask a presumptuous question.

I know I can't trust you to understand any verses properly, so this statement means nothing to me.

Your question did not include the altar, which was also in the verse.

So? I can ask about whatever I want to ask about. Measuring those within the temple, in particular, makes no sense if taken literally in a physical sense.

I responded with what John was told to measure, and the reason for the inclusion of the altar, and them worshiping within the temple inner court (implied by the next verse of being told not to measure the outer court).

It should be obvious to anyone reading the verse that John was not told to measure the height of each individual worshiper.

You interpret most Bible prophecy very literally, so it wouldn't have surprised me if you interpreted it that way.

You have to remember that when someone says "the temple", sometimes it infers the temple sanctuary building only, consisting of the Holy chamber and the Holy of Holies chamber. And sometimes it refers to the temple complex of everything within the temple walls.

John was told to measure the temple complex, excluding the outer court.

You are boring me. It seems that you are trying to avoid answering my question. He was told to measure "them that worship" in the temple. What do you think that means? Getting you to answer a straightforward question in a straightforward manner is like pulling teeth.

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes, unfortunately. Seems like a waste of time since you're not answering my question.

John was not told to measure the heavenly temple of God. But the one here on earth, where Jerusalem is.

What is your proof of that? Nothing you said proves that. And, let's not forget, you didn't bother answering my question. Why is that?

Do you really think that the gentiles will trample down the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, in Revelation 21 ?

It's not the Gentiles, it's the heathen. The Greek word "ethnos" can be translated as "Gentiles", but in this case "heathen" makes more sense. It relates to the heathen, led by the dragon and beast, making war with the saints which is a reference to the church.

The earthly city in Revelation 11 is called the holy city because that is where Jews will be worshiping God, during the first half of the 7 years.

Will they be worshiping Jesus? If not, then there would be nothing holy about that city. They worship God in vain if they do not accept Jesus. No, the holy city is New Jerusalem. I have scripture on my side on this. You don't. You can rip Revelation 21:2 out of your Bible if you want, but that verse makes it very clear as to what the holy city is and it's the New Jerusalem. Earthly Jerusalem's days as the holy city are long over.

But it gets trampled down by the gentiles when the Antichrist becomes the beast.

Why would Gentiles want to trample on earthly Jerusalem when the supposed Antichrist supposedly becomes the beast?

TribulationSigns · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
You do not understand the verse

Actually, it is you who do not understand the verses.

I responded with what John was told to measure, and the reason for the inclusion of the altar, and them worshiping within the temple inner court (implied by the next verse of being told not to measure the outer court).

Sounds like you have not received the truth of my testimony concerning Revelation 11:1-2. The whole Holy City of Revelation 11 is NOT a physical city in Jerusalem. Rather it represent the congregation of God all over the world making up of TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE. The Elect and Professed Christians. The Elect are the chosen ones who can be found within the Temple. The court which is outside the temple represents those who do not have a relationship with God yet is part of the City. It means they are only external believers - the professed believers. They are not measured because they are not chosen ones. They are only one of many called into God's congregation but not saved. They may lip-serving Christ but they re not saved. As a judgment prior to Second Coming, God allowed Satan to come into the court to deceive them and forced them to receive the mark of the beast so they actually owned by Satan. That is the point of Revelation 11.

It should be obvious to anyone reading the verse that John was not told to measure the height of each individual worshiper.

Yet John was told to measure the worshippers so how do you think he measure them?

You have to remember that when someone says "the temple", sometimes it infers the temple sanctuary building only, consisting of the Holy chamber and the Holy of Holies chamber. And sometimes it refers to the temple complex of everything within the temple walls.

Of course it may be true in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament Christ was talking about a spiritual temple which is the church. Revelation 11 obviously talked about the New Testament congregation because this is where Two Witnesses (symbolically Elect) received power to preach the Gospel since Pentecost until Beast came out to kill them.

John was told to measure the temple complex, excluding the outer court.

In literal fashion? No. I already explained the purpose of measuring the temple, the altar and those who worships.

Did you read what I wrote? John was not told to measure the heavenly temple of God. But the one here on earth, where Jerusalem is.

False. Christ's Kingdom is here right now, THROUGH the church!

Do you really think that the gentiles will trample down the heavenly holy city, new Jerusalem, in Revelation 21

Who do you really think the Gentiles are? Americans? Russians? Arabs? No. According to the Spirit of God, all unsaved Jews are spiritually Gentiles and all saved Gentiles are spiritually Jews in Christ!

Romans 2:28-28

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Therefore the false prophets and christs and all people deceived by them are "gentiles" who come and trample down upon Church with falsehoods and silence the truthful testimony of Faithful Christian, the spiritual Jews. You just got the Gentiles part confused. That is why the "time of the Gentiles" of Luke 21:24 is not about some non-Jews taking over the physical city of Jerusalem in the Middle East, but the unsaved people coming into God's congregation all over the world - Gog and Magog, in case you have not noticed!

The earthly city in Revelation 11 is called the holy city because that is where Jews will be worshiping God, during the first half of the 7 years. But it gets trampled down by the gentiles when the Antichrist becomes the beast.

See? That is why you are confused with the Holy City, Jews and Gentiles because you have carnal mind, not Spirit of Christ. You do not make any sense at all. The Holy City is New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, where the Two Witnesses (Elect) preaches...to the ends of the Earth! The church is all over the world. Now when they have finished their testimony for the purpose of sealing all people God intent to seal has been sealed, then the beast (army of the spirit of antichrist (false prophets and christs) under the influence of Satan) will be allowed BY GOD to come into His congregations all over the world to wage spiritual war against Elect (this is why it is a great tribulation for the Saints), to silence their truthful testimony and replace it with their lies to the point that they can deceive EVERYONE IN THE CHURCH who have NOT yet sealed (saved) by God by believe a lie! This is why the enemy won't be bother to bury the bodies of Two Witnesses. It means they won't feel bad about the truth and start rejoice in exchange the gifts of falsehood and lies without being torment by the truthful testimony of the Two Witnesses! t is all spiritual discerned and is happening RIGHT NOW. Only the Elect can see the abominations going on in the church where false prophets and christ now sits (rule) in therein!

Douggg · Dec 30, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So? I can ask about whatever I want to ask about. Measuring those within the temple, in particular, makes no sense if taken literally in a physical sense.

It makes no sense in the way you are not understanding the verse.

A distinction is being made between the temple - the sanctuary building only. And the temple - the temple complex - which not only contained the sanctuary building, but the brazen altar, and the inner courtyard where only Jews were allowed, and the outer courtyard where gentiles were allowed. John was told to measure the temple complex but leave out measuring the outer courtyard.

An example of the temple in scripture as the sanctuary building only is in 2Thessalonians2:3-4...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Does that mean as the temple of God that the Antichrist will go into the inner courtyard sit down on the ground, or maybe on the steps leading into the sanctuary building?

No, it means the Antichrist will go inside the temple sanctuary building, walk through the Holy chamber, then pull away the curtain, and then go into the Holy of Holies chamber and sit on a bench designed to rest the ark of the covenant on.

TribulationSigns · Dec 30, 2021

Douggg said:
It makes no sense in the way you are not understanding the verse.

Let me ask you something...

Joh 2:16-21
(16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
(17) And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

What temple did Christ said that will be destroyed and what temple will Christ rebuilt in three days where He will be a chief cornerstone?

1Pe 2:5-6
(5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

The temple of the New Testament is not a physical building in Jerusalem. The temple in the Old Testament was only a shadow or a type pointing to CHRIST. In the new testament, the body of Christ is the Church! This is where Christ is now rebuilding with His people as 1 Peter 2:5-6 declares! Remember the New Testament congregation is making up of two groups of people. The Elect (Gold, silver and precious stones) and Professed Christians (Wood, Hay and Stubble). People are the STONES of the spiritual temple. This is where Christ is now rebuilding after the old Testament congregation fell at the Cross.

Therefore, yes the church will be where the false prophets and christs (they are antichrist individually in God's eyes - not your one man theory) are allowed to sit (rule) in the temple (church) after the building of the church through the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished.

So, no, nothing to do with physical temple in Jerusalem, sorry.

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