Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

jeffweedaman

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No idea what you think you are talking about. We go up in the air to meet Him where He is. Your effort to stuff all this (and the 1000 years also, no less!) into a single day is cult like.

Why not answer my question? You might learn something about where I am coming from.

Tone down the aggression and the arrogance Brother.
 
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power1

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You referenced what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which is that we are not appointed to God's wrath. While that's always true (believers would never be appointed to His wrath at any time), the context of what he was talking about in 1 Thessalonians 5 was the wrath that will come down on the day Christ returns. The scope of the destruction will be so great that he said "they shall not escape". .
The passage says this

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

There is no context ruling out the Rapture! He does come one day. In that context, we are looking at when He comes to gather us in the air.

But, in terms of any wrath that might occur before that day, there is no need to be taken off of the earth in order to avoid it since it won't affect the entire earth like the wrath that comes down on the day Christ returns.
The Rapture is not wrath, it saved us from wrath. That marks a time when the wicked will get plenty of wrath. The wrath we are spared from.

God is fully capable of keeping us protected from any wrath that might come down up until that day when it comes down on literally the entire earth.
That will not be the case for most people of that day. However since they are supposed to be there, they will have some protection, and the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses will have full protection.
 
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power1

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You better start watching what you say here or you will be reported. Just because we Amils don't agree that the 1000 years are included in "the day of the Lord" doesn't mean our belief is "cult like". We don't stuff the thousand years into a single 24 hour day, either, so you're misrepresenting our view by saying that. We believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection and His future second coming just like you do. Having a different understanding of the 1000 years hardly qualifies as being "cult like". If you say anything like that again you will be reported.
What was strange is not the mistaken belief. It is the ignoring of the truth of the bible strange compulsion to preach it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What you fight with, and what you cannot explain, is the fact the DOTL arrives suddenly and the wrath catches all the wicked unexpectedly and results in their wholesale destruction (none escape). You have nothing to refute that as it is inspired, explicit and repeated Scripture.
Absolutely. What is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 gives no indication whatsoever of the DOTL being a long period of time. Both passages clearly indicate that massive global destruction accompanies the arrival of the DOTL. The idea of that going on for an extended period of time or anyone surviving that is laughable.

You also still have to show us your so-called Pretrib rapture in Revelation. That is because it doesn't exist. What is more, you cannot show a 7-year tribulation period after this supposed event anywhere in Scripture. Again, that is because it will never happen.
Notice that he hasn't even attempted to do that. He knows that it can't be done.
 
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power1

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Why not answer my question? You might learn something about where I am coming from.

Tone down the aggression and the arrogance Brother.
There is no real question. You said this

"Jesus said heaven and earth pass away at his coming so how could he come all the way down?
Do you believe the raptured saints are glorified at that time?"

That has nothing to do with the Rapture. Nor anything to do with the time right when He comes back.
 
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power1

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LOL. You're constantly having to change your tune after your statements are revealed to be false. Aren't you getting tired of that? And, as I said before, scripture does not teach that He will descend from heaven more than once in the future. That idea has zero scriptural support whatsoever.
Not in any way is that true. I do have to try to determine the depths of your confusion and try to hone answers accordingly.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Absolutely. What is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 gives no indication whatsoever of the DOTL being a long period of time. Both passages clearly indicate that massive global destruction accompanies the arrival of the DOTL. The idea of that going on for an extended period of time or anyone surviving that is laughable.

Notice that he hasn't even attempted to do that. He knows that it can't be done.

Jesus also said so likening this great climactic day to the sudden and wholesale destruction in Noah’s day and also the city of Sodom after the elect were rescued in both.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What was strange is not the mistaken belief. It is the ignoring of the truth of the bible strange compulsion to preach it.
Should I just go ahead and report you then since it looks like my message didn't get across? Do you understand that you shouldn't call our view "cult like" just because we have a different understanding of the 1000 years than you do? Cults don't believe in Jesus Christ, that He is God and that He died and rose again for our sins and our salvation. Amils do. Don't ever call our view "cult like" again.
 
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power1

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Should I just go ahead and report you then since it looks like my message didn't get across? Do you understand that you shouldn't call our view "cult like" just because we have a different understanding of the 1000 years than you do? Cults don't believe in Jesus Christ, that He is God and that He died and rose again for our sins and our salvation. Amils do. Don't ever call our view "cult like" again.
Try reading for comprehension. A belief that is mistaken is understandable. A fanatical defence of it despite a clear refutation is bizarre.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Not in any way is that true. I do have to try to determine the depths of your confusion and try to hone answers accordingly.
You're calling me confused when you are the one who didn't even know what Satan's little season is and you claimed that Jesus doesn't descend from heaven at the rapture even though Paul plainly said that He will? You are clearly the one who is confused.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Not in any way is that true. I do have to try to determine the depths of your confusion and try to hone answers accordingly.

What are you talking about? You have no proof text. You have zero authority to accuse anyone else of confusion. Present biblical evidence instead of constant personal opinion and false accusations. This is getting old.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Try reading for comprehension. A belief that is mistaken is understandable. A fanatical defence of it despite a clear refutation is bizarre.
What clear refutation are you talking about? You can't claim to have clearly refuted something with just your opinions and no scriptural support.
 
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jeffweedaman

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There is no real question. You said this

"Jesus said heaven and earth pass away at his coming so how could he come all the way down?
Do you believe the raptured saints are glorified at that time?"

That has nothing to do with the Rapture. Nor anything to do with the time right when He comes back.


I have Bolded the question above.

According to your rapture beliefs ,are those raptured glorified ?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You do not even accept the Word?
Don't ever ask me a question like this again. Of course I accept the Word. I don't accept some of your interpretations of the Word. Big difference.

"that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:"

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire."

At what point did this individual decieve? During the 1000 years or after they were over? What does John say:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations."
I agree that he doesn't deceive the nations anymore during the thousand years and isn't loosed to deceive the nations until the thousand years are over, but I disagree with you about what him deceiving the nations means. Do you understand that?

I've explained my understanding of Satan's binding many times. It differs from your understanding, so you're wasting your time telling me that my view can't work with YOUR understanding of his binding. No kidding. Tell me why my understanding of his binding can't work instead if you won't want to waste your time.
 
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Timtofly

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That's fine if you disagree, but if you want to refute Amil, and particularly our understanding of Satan's binding, then you should do so based on our understanding of Satan's binding and not the Premil understanding of his binding. But, you just don't seem to understand that.
Arguing from understanding as opposed to Scripture?

If some amil have an understanding contradicting Revelation 20, then what verses contradict Revelation 20? How is Premil's understanding different from Revelation 20 itself? Posters in this thread alledge premil are fixated on this singular chapter, yet those very poster's understanding (amil), contradicts Revelation 20. If it did not, then there would be no issues. Just because one gets tired of the issues, does not make them cease to exist.

Your interpretation of Revelation 20 clearly is in opposition to the fact that Satan cannot even communicate with a single soul during this binding. Now we have to change our understanding of Revelation 20 to fit Amil understanding? I thought amil just used Revelation 20 to show a recap of history? Now that any can see that is just opinion and not John's explicit context, we can now forget this ploy. But now have to totally communicate as one amil to another?

I agree with Amil that Satan is restricted as they portray in their understanding. That is Scripture, but has nothing to do with Revelation 20.

I agree the light of the Gospel has dispelled the spiritual darkness, and literally all over the world. That is Scripture, but has nothing whatsoever to do with Revelation 20.

I agree that Satan cannot hinder us outright, as nothing literally can, except our own sins, if we do not confess them before God. But that has nothing to do with Revelation 20.

Now you want us to anchor amil understanding solely via Revelation 20, even though that understanding totally contradicts all of Scripture including Revelation 20?

Amil will never accept Revelation 20 is textually and contextually post the Second Coming. Premil are not fixated on Revelation 20. It just happens to be the only chapter in between Revelation 19 and 21, and John told us not to mess with the words he wrote. You can try to place the chapter prior to Revelation 6 in your interpretation and understanding. You can try to say it is an historical recap of the church age/intra-Advent period. But you cannot change the text to force us to accept any other way than it was actually written.

Yet when we attempt to say we understand amil that is not enough. Even Amil should at least be honest and agree the text of Revelation 20 does not change thought from 19, but that they prefer we all ignore that fact, before demanding we ignore that fact, and trust their understanding as the only understanding worth posting.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The passage says this

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:10
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1 Thessalonians 5:11
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

There is no context ruling out the Rapture! He does come one day. In that context, we are looking at when He comes to gather us in the air.
What are you talking about? When did I say something about ruling out the rapture?

What I believe is that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9 is speaking of one event during which Christ descends from heaven, the dead in Christ are resurrected and, together with those in Christ who are alive and remain, are caught up together to meet Christ in the air. Then Christ sends fire down upon the earth (based on 2 Peter 3:10-12) which results in the "sudden destruction" of all the wicked. This obviously does not leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom. So, in my opinion, the pretrib rapture and premillenialism doctrines contradict what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

The Rapture is not wrath, it saved us from wrath.
Obviously! Where did I say otherwise?

That marks a time when the wicked will get plenty of wrath. The wrath we are spared from.
Again, obviously. But, what you apparently are missing is that the wrath they experience will be global and will result in all of the wicked being killed. So, with all believers having immortal bodies and all the wicked being killed, what mortals does that leave to populate the earth for 1000 years? None, obviously.

That will not be the case for most people of that day. However since they are supposed to be there, they will have some protection, and the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses will have full protection.
I see those are figurative representations of the entire church. Why would every believer need to be taken off of the earth except for 144,002? I don't believe that makes any sense.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Well, looking at opinions in a search I see this

"So, when would this Day of the Lord begin, because it comes as a thief? It couldn’t be in the great Tribulation, the end of the Tribulation, or the end of the millennium, or whatever. I think it has to be at the Rapture. “It comes,” Christ said, “at such an hour as you think not the Son of man cometh,” (that is, to take us to heaven). Of course, the Second Coming—you would know when that was, because even the Antichrist knows, Revelation 19, and he goes out with his armies to do battle against the Lord.

So, I think the Rapture of the church, taking us out of the earth, at a time when no one expects it will happen, when they are quite content. Like Luke 17: “As it was in the days of Noah, in the days of Lot . . . ,” they are buying and selling and building and planting and partying and marrying and so forth—then, He is going to take His Bride away, and I think that begins the Day of the Lord.

Now, it’s not a twenty-four hour period. It goes through the great Tribulation, it goes through the Millennial reign of Christ and He doesn’t say this is at the moment that it begins but he says, “. . . in which the heavens shall pass away.”

source




I don't care if you taught them the sky was falling, or that the big bad wolf was coming to church tea. The plain facts are that all those verses I posted could not possibly happen before Jesus returned (of that afternoon)

Word salad



Look around and tell us how people are beating their weapons into farm equipment? Your interpretation has less merit than a Mickey Mouse cartoon on bible truth.



Again, that is absurd. It is true that the last times existed even in Jesus' day, however the bulk of prophesy of those last days in no way could have happened yet. All nations are not coming up to Jerusalem now, no child dies at a hundred years old or lies with a wolf or lion! etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

He also clearly relates to the last days and events that of course have not happened yet. Just like you try to stuff the 1000 years, and final new heavens and earth all into afternoon teatime, you apparently try to stuff all events of the latter days into the present time! Need we say more?

If there is anything already done there why would I deny that? The problem is that it talks of the future. examples:

Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them

Isaiah 11:8
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea
etc

Is it really news that there is still destruction and hurting in the world??

This is typical of Pretrib. They have plainly no answer to the truth of God's Word which forbids their error so they run to Pretrib websites that also do not have an answer to the sacred text and hide behind their teachers beliefs (who cannot be challenged because their theories are extra-biblical and they forbid debate which might expose their teaching). Your cut-and-pastes exposes the fragility of your position and how you have no answer to the biblical truth presented. No wonder Pretrib is in free-fall today and is getting pummeled all over the internet at the moment. Your constant avoidance and failure to provide any Scripture of evidential worth to support your theory reinforces what we all know - Pretrib is extra-biblical.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Arguing from understanding as opposed to Scripture?
What does that even mean?

If some amil have an understanding contradicting Revelation 20, then what verses contradict Revelation 20?
It's your opinion that Amils have an understanding contradicting Revelation 20. I believe your understanding contradicts Revelation 20. I think we've already established this long ago.

How is Premil's understanding different from Revelation 20 itself?
Premils take Revelation 20 more literally than Amils do (such as seeing a spirit being like Satan being somehow literally, physically bound), but is that really the right approach to interpreting a book like Revelation? I don't believe so. Also, the Premil understanding of Revelation 20 contradicts other scripture such as the scripture which teaches one judgment day, one resurrection event and that all of the wicked will be destroyed when Christ returns with all believers being changed to have immortal bodies.

Posters in this thread alledge premil are fixated on this singular chapter, yet those very poster's understanding (amil), contradicts Revelation 20.
Only in your opinion, which doesn't amount to much since it's never accompanied by supporting scripture.

If it did not, then there would be no issues. Just because one gets tired of the issues, does not make them cease to exist.

Your interpretation of Revelation 20 clearly is in opposition to the fact that Satan cannot even communicate with a single soul during this binding.
That's only your opinion. How do you support that opinion with other scripture? You don't. Amils, however, support our understanding of his binding with other scripture.

Now we have to change our understanding of Revelation 20 to fit Amil understanding?
Your understanding of Revelation 20 should not contradict other scripture, but it does.

I thought amil just used Revelation 20 to show a recap of history?
Revelation 20 talks about Christ reigning and His people reigning with Him. Other scripture indicates that He began reigning after His resurrection. So, we interpret Revelation 20 in light of other scripture.

Now that any can see that is just opinion and not John's explicit context, we can now forget this ploy. But now have to totally communicate as one amil to another?
Huh?

I agree with Amil that Satan is restricted as they portray in their understanding. That is Scripture, but has nothing to do with Revelation 20.
That's your opinion. I personally see the restraining of wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2 as relating to Satan's binding. You don't. So be it.

I agree the light of the Gospel has dispelled the spiritual darkness, and literally all over the world. That is Scripture, but has nothing whatsoever to do with Revelation 20.
I obviously disagree. So be it. We are so far apart in our beliefs that I'm amazed whenever we agree on anything.

I agree that Satan cannot hinder us outright, as nothing literally can, except our own sins, if we do not confess them before God. But that has nothing to do with Revelation 20.
Again, that is your opinion and I disagree. So be it. We're never going to agree in our understanding of Satan's binding. That is clear. I'm fine with that. Believers can still fellowship together without agreeing on all these things. Many Christians don't even ever think about some of the things that we discuss on a regular basis here.

Now you want us to anchor amil understanding solely via Revelation 20, even though that understanding totally contradicts all of Scripture including Revelation 20?
LOL. Is that what I said? Not at all. Why do you say ridiculous things like this? You have no credibility because you often say completely ludicrous things like this. Amil is not based solely on Revelation 20 at all. Instead, we always say that we interpret Revelation 20 in light of other, more clear scripture, that isn't contained within a highly symbolic book like Revelation.

Amil will never accept Revelation 20 is textually and contextually post the Second Coming.
Obviously. That's what Amil means, that we don't believe in a thousand year kingdom occurring after the second coming.

Premil are not fixated on Revelation 20.
Once again you are trying to speak for all Premils for some reason. I believe many Premils are fixated on Revelation 20 and interpret the rest of scripture based on their understanding of Revelation 20 instead of interpreting Revelation 20 based on what other scripture teaches.

It just happens to be the only chapter in between Revelation 19 and 21, and John told us not to mess with the words he wrote.
I don't mess with the words he wrote at all. I simply interpret them differently than you do. You act as if the book of Revelation is all literal and there isn't more than one possible way to interpret it. That's ridiculous. We're talking about a book that contains a description of things like Jesus holding seven stars in His hand and a woman sitting on many waters while riding a beast with seven heads and ten horns. Interpreting the book as literally as you do makes no sense.

You can try to place the chapter prior to Revelation 6 in your interpretation and understanding. You can try to say it is an historical recap of the church age/intra-Advent period. But you cannot change the text to force us to accept any other way than it was actually written.
You're basically telling me that I can't interpret it any other way than very literally and all in chronological order. Who are you to say that? How do you know that's how it was written and how it's meant to be interpreted? Have you talked to John directly? I disagree that it's meant to be interpreted that way. Interpreting it that way results in contradicting other scripture.

Yet when we attempt to say we understand amil that is not enough.
Some Premils like yourself don't completely understand Amil which is why you misrepresent our view sometimes.

Even Amil should at least be honest and agree the text of Revelation 20 does not change thought from 19, but that they prefer we all ignore that fact, before demanding we ignore that fact, and trust their understanding as the only understanding worth posting.
You need to learn the definition of the word "fact". You are confusing it with your OPINION.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Look at the verses posted and tell us where each one is now fulfilled?

"Isaiah 19:19
In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord .
You see no one puts up an alter when the world is burned up and everyone dead!

Look, there will even be cattle and pastures!

Isaiah 30:23
Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.


And people lying down safely

Ho 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.
The world is not all burned and all dead, sorry.
"



No. There is the Tribulation period of wrath, there is the return of Jesus, there is the 1000 years, there is the new heavens and earth, there is eternity, etc. You do have a tendency to try to stuff all things into some little place where they do not possibly fit or belong.


All prophesy is 'to come'--until it happens!

That event would be on a day in the last days. That does not turn the day of the Lord or the last days into one single day.

So when do believers rise from the dead? (believers in Jesus)
The Rapture. That is on a certain day in that end period.

Where is your supposed future millennium mentioned here? Nowhere.

Tribulationsigns totally dismantled and refuted your interpretation of these in a previous post and your dumping of unrelated passages into your so-called future millennium. You have obviously nothing, by your avoidance. Highlight any mention of this supposed future thousand years period and we will start to take your posts serious. Until then we can only view this as classic Pretrib eisegesis.

Nothing + nothing = nothing.
 
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