Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Spiritual Jew

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Of course it makes sense. Do not be ignorant:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
This does not indicate that the day of the Lord lasts for a thousand years. That is completely ridiculous.

But, let's say the day of the Lord did last for 1000 years. When does the burning up of the heavens and earth occur then? Just at the end? What about Satan's little season then? How could that occur after the earth was burned up? You just don't realize how ludicrous it is to think that the day of the Lord will last 1000 years. There is no evidence of such a thing in either 2 Peter 3 or 1 Thessalonians 5. Not even close.
 
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DavidPT

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Why would you think this period should ever end, if His reign was everlasting?

That is one reason you claim premil limit His eternal reign. His Second Coming has nothing to do with an interruption to, nor a start of any reign. Premil do not claim His reign starts at the Second Coming. Premil claim the Second Coming brings Christ physically to earth to continue His eternal reign on earth. In the NHNE that reign continues in the New Jerusalem. To even state the reign ends at the Second Coming is hypocritical to the point. Premil does not limit this reign any more than Amil does. This point should be debunked, as ridiculous.

If you claim this misrepresents amil, then certainly amil misrepresent premil in the same fashion. The Word has always been in a position of authority. Nothing that happens on earth will ever change that authority. The disciples had power and authority years before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

The thousand years as presented cannot nor ever will represent an intra-Advent period. Christ rules and reigns on earth period, no exceptions, during the Millennium. Since Christ is on earth, and amil cannot prove Christ is not on earth, then the Millennium takes place after the Second Coming. Recap is just an imagination of a biased position in an erroneous eschatology. Where is proof that an ascension is implied in Revelation 20? The context is the tribulation and especially the end of Satan's 42 months with the FP and the beast. The context is the end and defeat of Satan, the FP, and the beast. That context does not end until this verse:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

No context about the first century AD can be found nor implied. That is only human opinion and imagination.



If the thousand years are pertaining to this age there would be somewhere in the book of Revelation before ch 20 pertaining to this same thousand years. I can't find anything before ch 20 that matches with a period of time when satan would be in the pit. Everything before Revelation 20 depicts a loose satan not a bound one. I can't find one passage prior to ch 20 that even remotely depicts a time involving when satan is in the pit. If Revelation 20:1-6 is the intra-advent period, where then can one find this same intra-advent period recorded before ch 20, where it matches what is recorded in Revelation 20:1-6?
 
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power1

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But there is no Pretrib rapture followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a 3rd coming. That is a Pretrib innovation, as your avoidance proves.
Well, that is debatable. If the Tribulation is wrath (I have already posted how the vials are the wrath etc) then either you claim we are appointed to that wrath of God, or we do escape as promised.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Amils never use both the OT and NT together to prove they are the correct position. They go by what the NT alone says, not by what the OT and the NT together says.

The Old Testament is New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed.
For example, in Daniel, God used the figures of four "diverse" beasts in Daniel, representing nations that fight against Israel. But those nations prefigured Satan's kingdom just as Israel prefigured the kingdom of God in the New Testament. This does not mean that end-time Satan's kingdom will be some literal nations, nor that the one beast in Revelation 13 represents 10 physical or literal nations somewhere in Italy prepared to invade national Israel in the Middle East, etc. We cannot go back to the Old Testament earthly "types" to understand New Testament realities in the same way.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Well, that is debatable. If the Tribulation is wrath (I have already posted how the vials are the wrath etc) then either you claim we are appointed to that wrath of God, or we do escape as promised.

Show us where in Scripture that God has defined the (great) Tribulation as the wrath of God? Do you realize that the Tribulation is a trial or testing, not wrath?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The Great Tribulation only starts when the abomination of desolation gets placed in the holy place. However, the whole seven years is a time of wrath also. It simply gets a lot worse as we progress.
Where is your evidence to show that there will be a time period of God's wrath that lasts for 7 years? You seem incapable of backing up your views with scripture. How can anyone take you seriously when that is the case?

What day?
The day Christ returns. Pay attention.

The kid dies at a hundred. That means they are human. If anything changed they would not die!
You're obviously referring to Isaiah 65:17-25. So, you think that John contradicted Isaiah when he said there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in? Think about it. A 100 year old child? Isaiah was using figurative language to described eternity in a way that his readers back then could understand. The concept of eternity was not understood at all in Old Testament times, so that is why Isaiah wrote about the new heavens and new earth the way he did.

Look at this:

Isiaah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

So, you think that somehow there will be death at that time, but also no weeping or crying? Will everyone be so callous at that time that they won't even mourn the death of loved ones?

?
No. First He has to come to rule for 1000 years before that 1000 years can begin! Elementary.
That's what your elementary interpretation skills tell you, but that belief contradicts other scripture.

Who cares? We do not get all events of the day of the Lord in a few verses! In those few verses you conflate events as it is!
Yet, you're apparently completely unable to show that with scripture. Your opinions mean nothing without scripture to back them up. What events do you think happen on the day of the Lord and what is the scripture you base that on? How does your understanding of the day of the Lord match up with what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:6?

Did you not say there are no humans that die on earth after Jesus returns? Be clear.
Yes. As I said clearly to you already more than once, I believe all the lost will be killed on the day He returns and all the saved will be changed to have immortal bodies. No one will die after that. The judgment will take place at that time (see Matthew 25:31-46) with believers inheriting eternal life in the new heavens and new earth and unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire. I know I'm being clear here, so you shouldn't have to tell me to be clear.
 
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power1

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What you fail to see is that Isaiah 11 was fulfilled in Christ.
So please post the address we can see the little child sitting on a den of snakes, or with a wolf or lion? etc

Isaiah 11:9-10
  • "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Ever heard of public education? It seems that His knowledge forgot to cover them! Movies also. etc

Yes, hopefully believers are covered in His knowledge. However, from the weird posts I see here, many seem covered with something else!

How is Satan completely bound?
Easy---in your dreams!


We have power over all power of the enemy and over the serpent that he cannot harm us. And it is because of the work of Christ to cast Satan down, halter him that the nations would no longer be deceived.
The world is not composed only of sheep. The Prince of this world comes and goes. Soon he will be cast down and be stuck here, mad as a wet hornet.


The child of God (Elect) can play on the den of the asp (snake/serpent) and upon the hole of the cockatrice (viper/serpent) and not be hurt because Satan (serpent/viper) has been completely haltered that he cannot hurt us.
Ever heard of child protection services?
 
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power1

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The day of Christ's wrath is at hand at that point.
Nice try.
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

The idea that life will continue on the earth after this is ridiculous.
So are you suggesting, for example, that the child who dies at a hundred lived today, and not in that time after Jesus returns?
Of course we will be delivered from God's wrath, but where are you getting the idea that His wrath lasts for several years?
How long did you think the vials lasted? Afternoon tea again?

But, what exactly is "the Tribulation period" in your mind? When does it begin and when does it end? Does it also involve Christians being persecuted or do you see it as only involving God's wrath?
The Great Tribulation is the second half of the last seven years of history. The whole seven years is often referred to as the Tribulation by many as well.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Well, looking at opinions in a search I see this
This tells us all we need to know about you. Your beliefs are entirely based on the opinions of others. You clearly have never studied these things in depth for yourself. You need to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures for yourself to see if what you have been taught by others is true or not (Acts 17:10-11).
 
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DavidPT

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Well, that is debatable. If the Tribulation is wrath (I have already posted how the vials are the wrath etc) then either you claim we are appointed to that wrath of God, or we do escape as promised.


The vials are clearly wrath, but they don't get poured out during the trib, they get poured out after the trib. In my view the 42 month reign of the beast equals the trib in question, it also equals Matthew 24:15-26. The vials of wrath involve the 6th seal. Matthew 24:29 places the time of the 6th seal after the trib.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :


What I have underlined involves the 6th seal. As can be seen in the text, it is after the trib of those days.
 
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power1

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Show us where in Scripture that God has defined the (great) Tribulation as the wrath of God? Do you realize that the Tribulation is a trial or testing, not wrath?
The vials, as the verses I posted prove, are the wrath of God. Do you claim the vials are poured out sometime other than the Trib?
 
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DavidPT

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The Old Testament is New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament Revealed.
For example, in Daniel, God used the figures of four "diverse" beasts in Daniel, representing nations that fight against Israel. But those nations prefigured Satan's kingdom just as Israel prefigured the kingdom of God in the New Testament. This does not mean that end-time Satan's kingdom will be some literal nations, nor that the one beast in Revelation 13 represents 10 physical or literal nations somewhere in Italy prepared to invade national Israel in the Middle East, etc. We cannot go back to the Old Testament earthly "types" to understand New Testament realities in the same way.


In the OT though, some of what is recorded involve prophecies. Prophecies have to be fulfilled in some manner eventually, otherwise they are false prophecies.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Of course if you mean when he is loosed for a bit after the thousand years.
You said "The time when heaven and earth passes is known! That is 1000 years after He returns.". Satan's little season couldn't occur in that case since it obviously occurs after the 1000 years ends. This just shows your lack of attention to detail.
 
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In the OT though, some of what is recorded involve prophecies. Prophecies have to be fulfilled in some manner eventually, otherwise they are false prophecies.
But the meaning of those prophecies is clarified in the NT. You try to interpret those OT prophecies in isolation without the aid of the NT and that's not a good idea. If the purpose of the NT has nothing to do with shining light on the OT then why do you think the NT was written?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Not the same twenty minutes He comes. Context. We already know when the new heaven and earth arrive. No issue at all.

Not a one. All we have been furnished with is your obstinate clinging to some impossible and anti bible notion that the day of the Lord and all events in it, is all contained in a few hours.
Admit defeat
The guy who provides no scriptural support to back up his theories wants us to admit defeat. LOL!
 
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DavidPT

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But the meaning of those prophecies is clarified in the NT. You try to interpret those OT prophecies in isolation without the aid of the NT and that's not a good idea. If the purpose of the NT has nothing to do with shining light on the OT then why do you think the NT was written?


Here's an idea then. Prove with both the OT and NT, not just the NT alone, that there is no one remaining except for the saved once the 2nd coming takes place. I already know what passages in the NT lead you to conclude that. What passages in the OT lead you to conclude that as well? There is plenty recorded in the OT involving the end of this age. So, it's not like the OT is totally silent concerning this.
 
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power1

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The vials are clearly wrath, but they don't get poured out during the trib, they get poured out after the trib. In my view the 42 month reign of the beast equals the trib in question, it also equals Matthew 24:15-26. The vials of wrath involve the 6th seal. Matthew 24:29 places the time of the 6th seal after the trib.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :


What I have underlined involves the 6th seal. As can be seen in the text, it is after the trib of those days.
So the seals are not in the Trib now. OK
 
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DavidPT

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So the seals are not in the Trib now. OK


I don't recall saying the seals are not in the trib. I only said that of the 6th seal, not every seal. The 5th seal, for example, involves the time of the trib. Speaking of seals then. There is no mention of God's wrath until we get to the 6th seal. But once we get to the 6th seal, the trib is over at that point.
 
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