Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace

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Why try to cover the crux of the matter with your position? Will you admit that you try to place all the events in the day of the Lord (also 'those days' in that day' etc) into one single day or not? Be honest.

Of course. LOL. Who is arguing with that? At least we have multiple Scripture to support this. This is God's eternal day when time shall be no more. Here is what (I believe) Scripture teaches:

The day of salvation has been ongoing since the Fall (Isaiah 49:8 and 2 Corinthians 6:2). It is the “acceptable time” or “acceptable year” (Isaiah 49:8, 61:2, Luke 4:19) to be saved. “Today” is an age of grace the only day to respond to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-8, 4:7). There is no other day of hope after this day for salvation.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes and that day of the Lord includes His return as well as rule on up to the end of the 1000 years. It's all His day.

You keep saying this. Where are your Scriptures that actually state this?

Does all this sound like something that happens over a lunch break?
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

There are still nations! It takes time to do all that, get established, teach, etc etc.

In that day of the Lord this also happens..

What are you talking about? This relates to the last days not some imaginary future age in-between this age and the age to come. I actually preached on this passage last night - and the spiritual meaning of this for those who enter the kingdom of God.

The last days scripturally are intra-Advent, not some alleged future age. When your doctrine requires you to invent 2 lasts days ages and 2 NHNEs then you can literally force the Bible to say whatever you want. This is crazy! The reality is: Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 refer to the here and now.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

The last days commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ of which this passage provides indisputable proof.

Hebrews 9:26 also says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 Peter 1:19-20 also confirm that, “Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world … was manifest in these last times for you.”

Isaiah 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea
It takes time to gather people from all over the world.

The world is not burned up at all yet.

Paul draws several of the Old Testament prophecies relating to the removing of the global deception upon the Gentiles (ethnos) together in Romans 15:8-12 and shows how this began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ and the subsequent evangelism of the early Church. Significantly, Isaiah 11 is one of them. He declares, Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written (in 1 Samuel 22:50), For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith (in Psalm 18:49), Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again (in Deuteronomy 32:43),Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again (in Isaiah 11:10), Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.”

Isaiah clearly relates to this current age.

Moreover, Romans 9:27-28 plainly declares, referring to Isaiah 10, Esaias also crieth concerning Israel (in Isaiah 10:20-22), Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Why do you deny the current fulfillment of at least part of Isaiah 11? What is your issue? Again, who are the true literalists? Amils!

Parts of Isaiah 11 definitely refer to the new covenant period (as can be seen through Paul’s allusion to this chapter in Romans 9:27-28 and 15:8-12), the others parts that are under dispute refer to the “new heavens and new earth.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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Isaiah 19:19
In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord .
You see no one puts up an alter when the world is burned up and everyone dead!

Look, there will even be cattle and pastures!

Isaiah 30:23
Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.


And people lying down safely

Ho 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.
The world is not all burned and all dead, sorry.

Your misplaced coloured bible verse spamming is a waste of our time.

Where is your supposed future millennium mentioned here? Nowhere. You are just gerrymandering Scripture to support your beliefs. These passages are talking about the success of the Gospel in this intra-Advent period. Nothing here correlates with Revelation 20, and you know it. You have nothing to support this period you create.

Christ only recognizes two ages in His teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of the here-and-now with the glory and pristine nature of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity.

For the sake of clarity, the phrases “this world” and “the world to come” in the KJV are better interpreted “this age” and “the age to come.” The Greek word that is often interpreted “world” in this contrast is aion. But, it is not specifically speaking about the physical globe that we live on. It rather relates to: a vast period that is normally marked by what is said to occur within that period.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that there is no intervening time-period or temporal age in between “this age” and “the age to come.” It is within the bounds of this juxtapose alone that we understand the whole eschatological arrangement, with its two unique diverse worlds. Johnathan Menn points out that the New Testament “gives us a clear, consistent and comprehensive eschatological interpretive structure. That structure is the ‘two ages’: … ‘this age’ and the ‘age to come’. The terminology of the two ages is the key concept for understanding biblical eschatology. A proper understanding of how this age and the age to come fit together renders biblical eschatology both understandable and coherent.”

The Greek word kairos (meaning time) is also employed in a similar context to describe the here-and-now, whilst the Greek word mello (meaning hereafter or ‘to come’) is regularly used to describe the eternal state, immediately following the second coming. Because of its contextual and consistent pointing to eternity, it is often translated “the time to come” or “the world to come.” These comparable words only serve to reinforce this recurrent New Testament contrast.

This can be seen in Romans 8:18: “For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (kairos) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall (mello) be revealed in us.”

We see this same juxtapose in the New Testament between the words “now” and “then.” “Now” relates to time, and “then” relates to the future eternal state. The Greek word for “now” is arti meaning: ‘just now, this moment, now at this time, at this very time, this moment’. The Greek word nun is also used to describe the present time. The Greek word for “then” is tote meaning: ‘then’ or ‘at that time’.

This is demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 13:9-12: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then (tote) that which is in part shall be done away For now (arti) we see through a glass, darkly; but then (tote) face to face: now (arti) I know in part; but then (tote) shall I know even as also I am known.”

These words are employed in Scripture to divide “this age” from “the age to come.”

It is important to note, ages are normally distinguished by specific and distinct characteristics which occur within them. This helps us understand what (and when) we are looking at. We should keep this in mind as we delve deeper into this subject.

Historians talk about ages in history like the stone age, the iron age and the bronze age. We also hear terms like the ice age. The description given to the said age normally gives us an insight into the period of time we are looking at.

For example:

· The Stone Age was marked by a period in which stone was widely used to make implements.
· The Bronze Age was an era characterized by the widespread use of bronze.
· The Iron Age was a stage of time when the dominant toolmaking material was iron.
· The Ice Age was said to be a time of significantly colder global temperatures that caused glacial expansion across the earth’s surface.

It is the same in Scripture! Ages normally have detail or descriptions attached to them that give us a general overall insight into their location, duration and character.

The Bible sometimes even uses the words “hour” or “day” in a general non-literal sense to describe a time, age or era. But, again, the setting and duration of that period can only be definitely identified by observing the detail that continues to occur throughout that given time-span. For example: Jesus said in John 5:25 Jesus taught: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming [Gr. hōra erchomai), and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” No one would surely insist in interpreting this as a literal 60 minutes. What is more, what is attributed to that “hour” lasts throughout the extent of the mentioned “hour” – namely spiritual resurrection. Christ here was simply saying ‘from this time forth’.

I John 2:18 describes the last days period introduced by Christ 2000 years ago, warning: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time [Gr. eschatos hōra or last hour].” It would be wrong to view this as speaking of a single hour. That is not remotely the sense or meaning. It is rather speaking about the intra-Advent period. This is a period that will continue to the coming of Christ, as other Scripture shows antichrist operating right up until the end.

A similar passage is found in Revelation 17:12, only talking about the tail-end period of antichrist. It predicts: “the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour [Gr. mia hōra] with the beast.” It would be wrong for the end-time Bible student to limit the reign of antichrist at the end to 60 minutes. But the length of the hour mentioned is very much linked to the duration of the confederacy between the beast with the ten kings. Depending upon where one is living throughout the world, we could end up sleeping through such a brief moment.

We know that the phrase “the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2) is not referring to a single 24-hour day because it describes a period of ongoing salvation. Obviously, as long as salvation is happening, the day of salvation is still active. From repeated Scripture, we know that such a period was inaugurated at the beginning of the world/age and will last until the end of the world/age. That is when salvation is concluded.

On the other hand, when we observe Martha’s statement regarding “the resurrection at the last day” (John 11:24), there are several reasons to relate that to a particular singular day, rather than some ongoing era. First, we note the ongoing distinction between “the last days” (plural), which most informed Bible student correctly relate to the intra-Advent period, and that of “the last day” (singular), relating to the end of time. Second, the detail attributed to “the last day” communicates an event rather than a protracted period – namely “the resurrection.” There is no sense in the name or description of an age of ongoing protracted resurrection. That would be patently illogical and unscriptural. Third, the occasion in view is repeatedly depicted in the Bible as a general instantaneous catching away in the twinkling of an eye. Moreover, the righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice at Christ’s climactic return (John 5:28-29). We can therefore determine that this singular day is marked by the resurrection of all the dead.

Scriptural time-references must therefore be examined thoughtfully and meticulously, noting their repeated use, the context they are used in and the specific detail attached to them. Confusion kicks in when the Bible student ignores these. We should view each text from as broad a perspective as possible; namely an objective position, rather than a narrow theological perspective, or subjective position. Mentions must be analyzed in their totality in order to get a good panoramic spiritual vantage point and to arrive at an accurate understanding of the period in view. This is necessary to achieve a safe and accurate understanding of Scripture. You would be shocked how many schools of thought fall apart on these vital basic rules of biblical hermeneutics.
 
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Timtofly

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Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture (including Revelation 20) teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+? Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end? What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them? There is no other Scripture that teaches this doctrine. Premils force that upon the sacred text.
You really do not see the two judgments?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

At the start judgement was given unto those resurrected, everlasting life. At the end the dead were still dead, and judged, and cast into the LOF.
 
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Timtofly

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Which Israel? True Israel or Christ-rejecting Israel?
Are you saying Paul was not saved, because Paul was a Christ rejecting true Israelite. The point of Redemption is that one is totally lost and rejecting God. Look at the parable of the prodigal son. Was the older brother lost, God rejecting, and in need of Redemption? Which son needed forgiveness?
 
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Timtofly

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(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
(3) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(4) These are both judged at His appearing.
(5) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(6) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(7) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(8) There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
(9) The good receive eternal life.
(10) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(11) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
(12) These people have not physically died yet.


Are you saying that dead people is the only condition? Is dead to you meaning only spiritual death, and thus includes those physically alive and physically dead? Because Revelation 20 clearly distinguishes a first resurrection, where the rest of the dead, either physically alive or not, remain dead until after the 1000 years. Where in Matthew 25 does it it define these sheep and goats are dead? Dead how? Physically or spiritually, or both? It never defines them, so they are spiritually dead, and physically alive. Because even many physically alive are still spiritually dead. That is the default position, unless one is born again, and both spiritually alive and physically alive. Are you claiming that Jesus does not teach a rapture at the Second Coming, and Christians will be brought to Jerusalem to be judged by Christ?


Why does Amil get to avoid all the applications and logistics of the reality of the Second Coming? Either both the sheep and goats meet the Lord in the air, to be judged. Or the church is not taken away, and the church has to physically stand along side of the unjust goats.

Not to mention the church was already judged on the Cross with Christ. Matthew 25 is about works based judgment, not the redemption of salvation under the Atonement of the Cross. How can Amil even use this as a one final judgment? The one and only final judgment to judge the World was the Cross. All other judgments are to those who rejected the Atonement of the Cross.

Where in Revelation 20 does it claim God is judging the world? God is judging the dead at the GWT, heaven and earth have fled, and can no longer be judged. Many here do not even consider that we who are physically alive, are still dead to God, especially after God can no longer see the world through the lense of the Atonement of the Cross. People tend to forget we are in dead corruptible physical bodies, because they are caught up in just living life.

Number 11 is an impossible claim. There are 4 states to be in with 2 births. Those spiritually and physically alive. Those spiritually and physically dead. Those are the two states you allow. However there is the possibility of those spiritually alive and physically dead, or physically alive and spiritually dead. There is no being only physical or only spiritual, without each other. During the Millennium they will be physically alive, yet not born of the spirit and spiritually alive. Nor will they have sin or a sin nature. They will have laws, the ability to disobey, with the penalty of death. Death is not defeated or complete, until after the fire consumes those at the very end. Then no more death. The defeat of death will be the end of being able to disobey.
 
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power1

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We all know this! Where do you get it then? It is clearly not in the Bible. Where is it?

If it is not in the Bible, it is a man-made invention. It is adding unto Scripture. It should therefore be rejected.
You have descended into blather if you want to pretend that there are not hundreds of prophesies about what I was talking about. "final years and last week of years in history"
 
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power1

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Of course. LOL. Who is arguing with that?
Great, so that is what you need to deal with. Your concept that the plethora of events of the last days must all be fitted into the time it takes for a cup of tea or whatever.

At least we have multiple Scripture to support this. This is God's eternal day when time shall be no more. Here is what (I believe) Scripture teaches:
That is off topic. There are still years after He returns, that is stated as a matter of fact. Whether it is the child dying at a hundred years old or the feasts that still happen, etc etc

Maybe you read too much science fiction? First you try to stuff books full of events into a single day, and then tou try to wave away time itself as even existing any more, despite the time stamped events and periods given repeatedly in Scripture. Work on that.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You have descended into blather if you want to pretend that there are not hundreds of prophesies about what I was talking about. "final years and last week of years in history"

But there is no Pretrib rapture followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a 3rd coming. That is a Pretrib innovation, as your avoidance proves.
 
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Timtofly

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the word "thousand" is figurative and represents the time period that began with Christ's resurrection since that is when He began to reign (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22). And that time period lasts up until Satan's little season
Why would you think this period should ever end, if His reign was everlasting?

That is one reason you claim premil limit His eternal reign. His Second Coming has nothing to do with an interruption to, nor a start of any reign. Premil do not claim His reign starts at the Second Coming. Premil claim the Second Coming brings Christ physically to earth to continue His eternal reign on earth. In the NHNE that reign continues in the New Jerusalem. To even state the reign ends at the Second Coming is hypocritical to the point. Premil does not limit this reign any more than Amil does. This point should be debunked, as ridiculous.

If you claim this misrepresents amil, then certainly amil misrepresent premil in the same fashion. The Word has always been in a position of authority. Nothing that happens on earth will ever change that authority. The disciples had power and authority years before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

The thousand years as presented cannot nor ever will represent an intra-Advent period. Christ rules and reigns on earth period, no exceptions, during the Millennium. Since Christ is on earth, and amil cannot prove Christ is not on earth, then the Millennium takes place after the Second Coming. Recap is just an imagination of a biased position in an erroneous eschatology. Where is proof that an ascension is implied in Revelation 20? The context is the tribulation and especially the end of Satan's 42 months with the FP and the beast. The context is the end and defeat of Satan, the FP, and the beast. That context does not end until this verse:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

No context about the first century AD can be found nor implied. That is only human opinion and imagination.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Great, so that is what you need to deal with. Your concept that the plethora of events of the last days must all be fitted into the time it takes for a cup of tea or whatever.

That is off topic. There are still years after He returns, that is stated as a matter of fact. Whether it is the child dying at a hundred years old or the feasts that still happen, etc etc

Maybe you read too much science fiction? First you try to stuff books full of events into a single day, and then tou try to wave away time itself as even existing any more, despite the time stamped events and periods given repeatedly in Scripture. Work on that.

Not so. The opposite is the truth. Amils have presented numerous supporting passage to prove a climactic return of Christ and you have avoided/dismissed every single one of them because they interfere with your theology.
 
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power1

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You keep saying this. Where are your Scriptures that actually state this?
Well, looking at opinions in a search I see this

"So, when would this Day of the Lord begin, because it comes as a thief? It couldn’t be in the great Tribulation, the end of the Tribulation, or the end of the millennium, or whatever. I think it has to be at the Rapture. “It comes,” Christ said, “at such an hour as you think not the Son of man cometh,” (that is, to take us to heaven). Of course, the Second Coming—you would know when that was, because even the Antichrist knows, Revelation 19, and he goes out with his armies to do battle against the Lord.

So, I think the Rapture of the church, taking us out of the earth, at a time when no one expects it will happen, when they are quite content. Like Luke 17: “As it was in the days of Noah, in the days of Lot . . . ,” they are buying and selling and building and planting and partying and marrying and so forth—then, He is going to take His Bride away, and I think that begins the Day of the Lord.

Now, it’s not a twenty-four hour period. It goes through the great Tribulation, it goes through the Millennial reign of Christ and He doesn’t say this is at the moment that it begins but he says, “. . . in which the heavens shall pass away.”

source



What are you talking about? This relates to the last days not some imaginary future age in-between this age and the age to come. I actually preached on this passage last night - and the spiritual meaning of this for those who enter the kingdom of God.
I don't care if you taught them the sky was falling, or that the big bad wolf was coming to church tea. The plain facts are that all those verses I posted could not possibly happen before Jesus returned (of that afternoon)

The last days scripturally are intra-Advent, not some alleged future age. When your doctrine requires you to invent 2 lasts days ages and 2 NHNEs then you can literally force the Bible to say whatever you want. This is crazy! The reality is: Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 refer to the here and now.
Word salad

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

Look around and tell us how people are beating their weapons into farm equipment? Your interpretation has less merit than a Mickey Mouse cartoon on bible truth.

The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in several New Testament passages.

Again, that is absurd. It is true that the last times existed even in Jesus' day, however the bulk of prophesy of those last days in no way could have happened yet. All nations are not coming up to Jerusalem now, no child dies at a hundred years old or lies with a wolf or lion! etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Isaiah clearly relates to this current age.
He also clearly relates to the last days and events that of course have not happened yet. Just like you try to stuff the 1000 years, and final new heavens and earth all into afternoon teatime, you apparently try to stuff all events of the latter days into the present time! Need we say more?

Why do you deny the current fulfillment of at least part of Isaiah 11? What is your issue? Again, who are the true literalists? Amils!
If there is anything already done there why would I deny that? The problem is that it talks of the future. examples:

Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them

Isaiah 11:8
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea
etc

Is it really news that there is still destruction and hurting in the world??
 
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DavidPT

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Not so. The opposite is the truth. Amils have presented numerous supporting passage to prove a climactic return of Christ and you have avoided/dismissed every single one of them because they interfere with your theology.


Amils never use both the OT and NT together to prove they are the correct position. They go by what the NT alone says, not by what the OT and the NT together says.
 
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Timtofly

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Instead, he told his readers that it was important for them to be careful about what they talked about and about living godly lives in anticipation of the arrival of the day of the Lord. Why would Peter say that to his readers if he was talking about something that wouldn't even happen until 1000+ years after the return of Christ? That would make no sense.
Of course it makes sense. Do not be ignorant:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

If you ever read about any 1000 year period of the Lord, that is the day of the Lord, and in similar fashion any Day of the Lord should be understood as 1000 years. The 1000 years is literal. The Day of the Lord is figurative of 1000 years. 1000 years is the literal part of this equation, not a number to be a symbol of an already symbolic term. The Day of the Lord is not 24 hours. 24 hours is not symbolic of 1000 years, in your figurative application. 24 hours is a literal application of the word day. In Scripture 1000 years is the literal application of the Lord's Day.

The verse does not say 24 hours is the same thing as 1000 years. Both are literal forms of a word known as "day". The Day with the Lord is the only figurative term in using the concept of 1000 years.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If there is anything already done there why would I deny that? The problem is that it talks of the future. examples:

Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:6
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them

Isaiah 11:8
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea
etc

Is it really news that there is still destruction and hurting in the world??

What you fail to see is that Isaiah 11 was fulfilled in Christ.

So if Isaiah 11:9 really sold you as you say, then it should have told you on the fact that right now is when none can hurt nor destroy in all God's holy mountain and right now the earth is full of the knowledge of Jehovah, even as the waters cover the sea (the whole world is being evangelized). But the fact is, scripture, out of context, is pretext!

Isaiah 11:9-10
  • "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
  • And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Did you read all of this chapter in context, or with pretext?

2nd Peter 1:1-2
  • "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
  • Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,"

There is your Peace, knowledge and safety. There is where none can hurt or destroy in the Kingdom (holy mountain) of Christ.

Colossians 3:10
  • "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
When those elect of the world has put on the new man by the preaching of the gospel, they have received the knowledge through Christ, as waters cover the sea.

Selah!

Now...

Matthew 12:28-29
  • "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  • Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
How is Satan completely bound? Obviously by the death of Christ. How do we know Satan was completely bound so that his house could be spoiled? Because God says he "had" to be. By the Spirit that should be good enough for Christians. Man needs no further witness than God's pure unadulterated word. Satan has been completely bound (haltered if you insist) so that he is unable to deceive the elect of the nations and hold them in bondage.

Mark 16:18
  • "They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Why can those who believe and are baptized in the Spirit take up serpents and not be harmed? Because Satan (the serpent) is completely haltered and Therefore cannot harm the believer. We rule over the serpent where he is subject to us, rather than the serpent ruling over us, as he did before he was haltered.

Luke 10:17-19
  • "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
  • And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
  • Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
We have power over all power of the enemy and over the serpent that he cannot harm us. And it is because of the work of Christ to cast Satan down, halter him that the nations would no longer be deceived.

Isaiah 11:8
  • "And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
  • They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
The child of God (Elect) can play on the den of the asp (snake/serpent) and upon the hole of the cockatrice (viper/serpent) and not be hurt because Satan (serpent/viper) has been completely haltered that he cannot hurt us. We are part of the Lord's kingdom or His Holy Mountain, and the serpent cannot hurt us. Christ bound him from doing so by his death and resurrection.

That is what Isaiah 11 is all about, Selah. Not about a physical kingdom in the future where literal animals and child cannot hurt each other!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Too bad. I am talking about His wrath that is before that and includes that!

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The day of Christ's wrath is at hand at that point. That means He is about to return at that point. When He returns, all the wicked will be destroyed on that day and all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies. That does not leave a period of time for mortals to continue living on the earth. You're not recognizing that there are parallels in the book of Revelation. You probably believe that all of the trumpets and vials occur after the sixth seal, but that isn't the case.

See, His wrath is in the Tribulation.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

As we see here, the wrath is also when those at the battle of Armageddon get dealt with

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
That is describing the day Christ returns. He will return at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-54) and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. The idea that life will continue on the earth after this is ridiculous. Notice that it says at that point it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". We know from Revelation 20 that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) are over.

We also see that the vials poured out in the Trib are the wrath of God

Revelation 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

We are delivered from that wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Of course we will be delivered from God's wrath, but where are you getting the idea that His wrath lasts for several years? That's what you're not showing. The only time when we'll need to be taken off of the earth is the day Christ returns to burn up the earth. We can be protected while still on the earth from any wrath that occurs before that day.

After Jesus returns, rest assured, no one will be coming up against Israel! So that the wrath of God includes the Tribulation period.
But, what exactly is "the Tribulation period" in your mind? When does it begin and when does it end? Does it also involve Christians being persecuted or do you see it as only involving God's wrath?
 
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power1

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Where is your supposed future millennium mentioned here? Nowhere.
Look at the verses posted and tell us where each one is now fulfilled?

"Isaiah 19:19
In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord .
You see no one puts up an alter when the world is burned up and everyone dead!

Look, there will even be cattle and pastures!

Isaiah 30:23
Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.


And people lying down safely

Ho 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

Joel 3:18
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.
The world is not all burned and all dead, sorry.
"


Christ only recognizes two ages in His teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.”
No. There is the Tribulation period of wrath, there is the return of Jesus, there is the 1000 years, there is the new heavens and earth, there is eternity, etc. You do have a tendency to try to stuff all things into some little place where they do not possibly fit or belong.


The Greek word kairos (meaning time) is also employed in a similar context to describe the here-and-now, whilst the Greek word mello (meaning hereafter or ‘to come’) is regularly used to describe the eternal state, immediately following the second coming. Because of its contextual and consistent pointing to eternity, it is often translated “the time to come” or “the world to come.” These comparable words only serve to reinforce this recurrent New Testament contrast.
All prophesy is 'to come'--until it happens!

On the other hand, when we observe Martha’s statement regarding “the resurrection at the last day” (John 11:24), there are several reasons to relate that to a particular singular day, rather than some ongoing era
That event would be on a day in the last days. That does not turn the day of the Lord or the last days into one single day.

So when do believers rise from the dead? (believers in Jesus)
The Rapture. That is on a certain day in that end period.
 
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