The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Marilyn C

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Apparently, when Jesus surprises us it will be when things are normal like just before the flood in Noah's day (Matthew 24:37-39). Everything is normal on the last day of the tribulation then suddenly Jesus comes. Is that how it works?

By the end of the tribulation most of the planet will be wiped out. All the remaining people will be on the verge of getting wiped out, but we're suppose to believe that everything is normal?

Didn't the Mark decimate the Christian population? After that only Christians hiding out far from cities would survive. How many would that be, thousands? So almost no Christians will be around to watch for the return of Jesus. Notice how this screws up the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins because there aren't any virgins around waiting for him.

How do we fix all of this?

Jesus only surprises those in darkness NOT those in the light.

`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should over take you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

The Body of Christ will be taken to its eternal setting in glory (Rev. 3: 21) and will be part of judging the world system and fallen angels, (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3).
 
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Douggg

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How do we fix all of this?
The rapture/resurrection event will take place anytime between now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to be God.

The Church may or may nor be here, when the Antichrist confirms the Mt Sinai covenant to begin the 7 years. But the Church will not be here when the Antichrist does his event, about three years later.

It will be peace and safety mood throughout the world up to the point of the event.

The Jews up til that time will believe that the Antichrist is the messiah. When the event takes place, the Jew will be mortified, in shock. Chaos will ensue. Keep in mind the two witnesses will be preaching in Jerusalem about the Antichrist not being the true messiah, but Jesus. And warning the Jews of what will shortly take place.

As soon as the Antichrist commits his event, God has the revealed man of sin killed for his act, and in disdain for the person brings him back to life, not allowing him to have the honor of being laid to rest in a big fancy tomb (called a house in the verse below), like other famous kings.
Isaiah 14:18-20.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

During that time of chaos, the Jews will be trying to piece together of what just happened. 144,000 of them will turn to Jesus immediately. And will turn many of their fellow Jews to Jesus, becoming the great tribulation saints who are persecuted during that time. But not as the Church, which will have been raptured before hand.

After the man of sin is brought back to life, he becomes the beast, and the image made of him and placed on the temple mount. That will be the signal for the Jews to flee to the mountains right away, not to delay.

For the next 1335 days will be the time of the great tribulation. Many of the saints will be martyred during that time.

Near the end of the great tribulation, a series of attacks will be made on the beast from the south, the north, and the east, likely because he will be funneling all of the oil in the middle-east to his western kingdom of the EU and western nations allies. Those are the attacks in Daniel 11:40-45.

The nations thus drawn into the middle east - suddenly at that time - the sixth seal event happens, totally unexpected, like a thief in the night, Jesus appearance in heaven, the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

The nations response, in Revelation 16:13-14, led by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan as the only way they can survive is to unite and make total war on Jesus.

The great tribulation saints in Revelation 16:15 are told to be watching for him, for Jesus will be returning, at the time the nations gather at Armageddon.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

The nations spend 45 days, assembling at Armageddon, and devising a hostage strategy to keep Jesus from passing judgment on them. In Zechariah 14, they take half the city of Jerusalem as hostages.

But it does not work, as Jesus will make a way of escape through a great valley when He stands on the mount of Olives, splitting it in half. And as the Jews flee through, Jesus melts the facade of the abomination of desolation statue image on the temple mount, exposing Satan.

Then the beast person and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. And Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit.


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Douggg

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The event which comes as a thief, is the Sixth Seal. Rev 6:12-17
I agree with that. But the timing is at the very end of the great tribulation. And is what will causes the nations to gather at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

keras, the sign of the Son of man in heaven is closely followed by Jesus's coming in power and great glory. And after the tribulation of those days in verse 29.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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ewq1938

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Jews (Judaism) on the other hand, who will be the ones living in Judaea when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place, the temple mount - are told to flee to the mountains.


No one told Jews of Judaism to flee to the mountains. Jesus was speaking to Christians when he said that and for the most part Jews never read what Jesus said. Nothing in the OT tells Jews to flee to the mountains when the AoD is seen.
 
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Douggg

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No one told Jews of Judaism to flee to the mountains. Jesus was speaking to Christians when he said that and for the most part Jews never read what Jesus said. Nothing in the OT tells Jews to flee to the mountains when the AoD is seen.
Jesus does not tell them in verses 31-51 to flee to the mountains, because the ones in verses 31-51 are Christians who consider Jesus their Lord. They are to be watching for Jesus - not watching for the abomination of desolation standing on the temple mount.

The abomination of desolation is in Daniel 12, which that chapter is focused on Daniel's people the Jews and the nation of Israel. Which are them who now live in Judaea having come out of the nations.
 
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ewq1938

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Jesus does not tell them in verses 31-51 to flee to the mountains, because the ones in verses 31-51 are Christians who consider Jesus their Lord.


You appeared to say differently, "Jews (Judaism) on the other hand, who will be the ones living in Judaea when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place, the temple mount - are told to flee to the mountains."

This simply isn't true. Jesus never said for them to flee.
 
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keras

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I agree with that. But the timing is at the very end of the great tribulation. And is what will causes the nations to gather at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.
You are in gross error to shuffle the Sixth Seal to just before the Return.
As well as being highly illogical, such a rearrangement of Revelation constitutes an adding to and a taking away of the Words of Revelation.
1 Thess 5:3 tells us plainly that people will be saying: Peace and safety...just before the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath strikes.
NOT the case during the Great Trib!
keras, the sign of the Son of man in heaven is closely followed by Jesus's coming in power and great glory. And after the tribulation of those days in verse 29.
There are no 'signs' prior to the Sixth Seal. It will be the event which 'comes as a thief', sudden and shocking everyone.

You might have just enough time to redraw your faulty charts. Otherwise you will be speechless on the Day.
 
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Marilyn C

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No one told Jews of Judaism to flee to the mountains. Jesus was speaking to Christians when he said that and for the most part Jews never read what Jesus said. Nothing in the OT tells Jews to flee to the mountains when the AoD is seen.

So you disagree with God`s word that the revelation of the Body of Christ was NOT known previously? It wasn`t until the Lord ascended and became Head of His Body, by the Father, that then He gave the revelation to the Apostle Paul. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23, 3: 1 - 7)
 
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Douggg

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You appeared to say differently, "Jews (Judaism) on the other hand, who will be the ones living in Judaea when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place, the temple mount - are told to flee to the mountains."

This simply isn't true. Jesus never said for them to flee.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is in Daniel 12:11-12. Daniel 12 opens with...
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The Jews will turn to Jesus during that time of chaos when their perceived messiah the Antichrist betrays them, is killed, brought back to life as the beast, the statue image made of him - the abomination of desolation.
 
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ewq1938

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The Jews will turn to Jesus during that time of chaos when their perceived messiah the Antichrist betrays them, is killed, brought back to life as the beast, the statue image made of him - the abomination of desolation.

I hope they all have copies of the Christian NT so they can see where Jesus said to flee to the mountains because if they don't, they will never even know he said to do that.
 
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Douggg

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There are no 'signs' prior to the Sixth Seal. It will be the event which 'comes as a thief', sudden and shocking everyone.
Actually there are in Luke 21:25-26, as those are part of the sixth seal, associated with the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Seeing Jesus in the sixth seal, when the second heaven, the cosmos, is parted, rolled up like a scroll - is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

You are in gross error to shuffle the Sixth Seal to just before the Return.
As well as being highly illogical, such a rearrangement of Revelation constitutes an adding to and a taking away of the Words of Revelation.
1 Thess 5:3 tells us plainly that people will be saying: Peace and safety...just before the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath strikes.

How can I be wrong when I showed right in the text of Matthew 24:30 that the sign of the Son of Man in heaven is in the same verse as Jesus then coming in great power and glory ?

1Thessalonians 5:3, the peace and safety, is right before the beginning of the Day of Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out in the 7 bowls of God's wrath.
 
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Douggg

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I hope they all have copies of the Christian NT so they can see where Jesus said to flee to the mountains because if they don't, they will never even know he said to do that.
No they are not going to be reading the New Testament.

Knowing to flee will be because the two witnesses in Jerusalem will be testifying and prophesying of what will be coming.



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ewq1938

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No they are not going to be reading the New Testament.

Knowing to flee will be because the two witnesses in Jerusalem will be testifying and prophesying of what will be coming.

And again, Jews of Judaism do not listen to Christ nor his disciples. A remnant does, and some convert but that's a tiny portion of those who are Jewish and are either in Judaism or are Atheist, or perhaps some other religions.

It still remains that Christ was speaking to and about Christians when he said flee to the mountains when the AoD was seen. Why? Because they are the ones that are persecuted in the Great Tribulation.

This is also found in Revelation:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of [/B][/U]the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus[/B][/U].


The saints are Christians not Jews. The saints keep the faith of Jesus! The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!

Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.
 
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keras

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Seeing Jesus in the sixth seal, when the second heaven, the cosmos, is parted, rolled up like a scroll - is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
What causes the earths atmosphere to be parted is not Jesus appearing, but the strike of a massive sun explosion.
Proved by Isaiah 34:4, in the context of the sudden destruction of Edom; the ungodly peoples.
How can I be wrong when I showed right in the text of Matthew 24:30 that the sign of the Son of Man in heaven is in the same verse as Jesus then coming in great power and glory ?
I repeat: there is no sign before the disaster of the Sixth Seal strikes.
1Thessalonians 5:3, the peace and safety, is right before the beginning of the Day of Lord, when God's wrath will be poured out in the 7 bowls of God's wrath.
Rubbish.
No one will think 'peace and safety' as the 7 Bowls are poured out and the worlds armies gather at Armageddon. Revelation 16:1-10
 
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ewq1938

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No one will think 'peace and safety' as the 7 Bowls are poured out and the worlds armies gather at Armageddon.


He said that would be before the time of the bowls which would be correct. That would match the general timeframe here:

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
 
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Douggg

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And again, Jews of Judaism do not listen to Christ nor his disciples. A remnant does, and some convert but that's a tiny portion of those who are Jewish and are either in Judaism or are Atheist, or perhaps some other religions.
I agree totally.

It still remains that Christ was speaking to and about Christians when he said flee to the mountains when the AoD was seen. Why? Because they are the ones that are persecuted in the Great Tribulation.

What you are missing is that on the timeline, the Jews en-masse become Christians after their debacle of thinking the Antichrist is their messiah. And though they become Christians at that time, they are not the church, but the great tribulation saints.
 
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keras

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He said that would be before the time of the bowls which would be correct. That would match the general timeframe here:

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Obviously, the 7 Bowls will take some time to be fulfilled. The assembly of the armies at Armageddon. The Seventh Bowl is rather dramatic; Revelation 16:16-18

Being happy that the 2 Witnesses are dead, is quite another thing from saying; Now we have peace and safety.

My point is; it is now that we have [relative] peace and safety and the event that will come to change the world is the Lord's terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, which will be the Sixth Seal.
Douggg wants to place it at, or just prior to the Return of Jesus.

He is wrong, proved by Isaiah 61, where Jesus stopped His quote before the Day of the Lord's vengeance, the next Prophesied event.
 
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ewq1938

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Obviously, the 7 Bowls will take some time to be fulfilled. The assembly of the armies at Armageddon. The Seventh Bowl is rather dramatic; Revelation 16:16-18

Being happy that the 2 Witnesses are dead, is quite another thing from saying; Now we have peace and safety.

It's related.


My point is; it is now that we have [relative] peace and safety and the event that will come to change the world is the Lord's terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, which will be the Sixth Seal.
Douggg wants to place it at, or just prior to the Return of Jesus.

I think my understanding of the seals is different than both of yours is but he is correct that peace and safety is the norm for the beast's empire and his people before the 7th trump sounds.
 
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Douggg

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What causes the earths atmosphere to be parted is not Jesus appearing, but the strike of a massive sun explosion.
It is not the earth's atmosphere that will be parted. Otherwise, everyone on earth would died in a few minutes, for the lack of air to breathe.

It is the cosmos, the stars you see up in the sky, the second heaven, that will part, rolled back like a scroll, the stars appearing to fall to earth as they disappear over the horizon.

Rubbish.
No one will think 'peace and safety' as the 7 Bowls are poured out and the worlds armies gather at Armageddon. Revelation 16:1-10
You misread my post.

The false messianic age - the world saying peace and safety.
The peace and safety illusion, ending when the Antichrist, false messiah, claims to have achieved God-hood - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Once the Day of the Lord begins, it is during that time, the seven bowls of God's wrath are poured out.
 
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Douggg

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My point is; it is now that we have [relative] peace and safety and the event that will come to change the world is the Lord's terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, which will be the Sixth Seal.
Douggg wants to place it at, or just prior to the Return of Jesus.
It is not now that the world is saying peace and safety. The latest is the Russians are threatening to invade the Ukraine.

It will be after Gog/Magog, and the false messianic age that begins then, that the world will be saying peace and safety.... thinking the Antichrist is the messiah.
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