Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

John Mullally said:

Concerning why some come to faith and others don't, I normally go to John 3:19-21. But this gives me something to think about as well.

Stick around.

Click to expand...

Good point. I do sometimes have a tendency to overthink these things, to try to make it all "work" logically. I do at least recognize I'm doing this and will step back and remind myself it's really a matter of faith rather than logic.

John Mullally said:

Concerning why some come to faith and others don't, I normally go to John 3:19-21. But this gives me something to think about as well.

Click to expand...

What about Luke 23:34 as an answer?

This is a UR proponent's view regarding coercion.

MMXX said:

I once started a thread asking people if they would be a Christian if there was no afterlife. Many if not most basically said their only reason for becoming a Christian was to escape eternal torment. Now if you really understood the UR point of view, that's seen as "giving people an offer they can't refuse". And I have to wonder if free will is measured in the consequences of not accepting an offer being the absolute worse outcome that could possibly exist.

Put another way, is someone becoming a Christian because they were terrified not to, not a result of coercion?

Click to expand...

Interesting, because this is the perspective I more typically hear from atheists: Christians are only Christians because they fear Hell. My response is that, in my 52 years of experience as a Christian, this is absolutely not the case. In my experience, "fear of Hell" barely registers on the radar screen of most Christians' motivations for turning to Christ and remaining in the faith.

"Fear of Hell," if genuine, implies some depth of belief in the God of Christianity. "I'll pretend to be a Christian just in case there is a Hell" isn't going to do the job.

Since Hell (whatever that may mean to you) is part of the Gospel message, who cares if this is part of a Christian's motivation? I assume the biblical warnings are there because they are supposed to influence our thinking.

Hell is a secondary issue. Whether a deity exists and, if so, whether He is the God of Christianity, are the central issues. As I suggested above, no one is going to have a genuine concern about Hell unless he or she already has some depth of belief God exists. Whatever coercive force the doctrine of Hell may have, it's hardly in the same category as standing face to face with God.

Signing off ... I really can't keep up the dialogue, and I'm just helping bury my own post about 1 Corinthians 15:22.

MMXX said:

What about Luke 23:34 as an answer?

Click to expand...

IIRC that happened in this life, not after death, right? I sometimes wonder what they did with that second chance? We can always hope they realized the tremendous free gift they had been given and acted accordingly.

Der Alte said:

I'm not setting up anything. I'm just calling them as I see them.

Click to expand...

That's the same thing as I see it.

Der Alte said:

I could not agree with you more, But that happened in this world not after death right?

Absolutely. In this life right? Got any examples of salvation after death?

Click to expand...

The Harrowing of Hell has already been presented to you.

Der Alte said:

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
JPS Prov 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​

Click to expand...

Der Alte said:

IIRC that happened in this life, not after death, right? I sometimes wonder what they did with that second chance? We can always hope they realized the tremendous free gift they had been given and acted accordingly.

Click to expand...

The question was why some come to faith and others don't. Not everything I address has to do with the afterlife. I'm actually more focused on the here and now.

Irkle Berserkle said:

Interesting, because this is the perspective I more typically hear from atheists: Christians are only Christians because they fear Hell. My response is that, in my 52 years of experience as a Christian, this is absolutely not the case. In my experience, "fear of Hell" barely registers on the radar screen of most Christians' motivations for turning to Christ and remaining in the faith.

"Fear of Hell," if genuine, implies some depth of belief in the God of Christianity. "I'll pretend to be a Christian just in case there is a Hell" isn't going to do the job.

Since Hell (whatever that may mean to you) is part of the Gospel message, who cares if this is part of a Christian's motivation? I assume the biblical warnings are there because they are supposed to influence our thinking.

Hell is a secondary issue. Whether a deity exists and, if so, whether He is the God of Christianity, are the central issues. As I suggested above, no one is going to have a genuine concern about Hell unless he or she already has some depth of belief God exists. Whatever coercive force the doctrine of Hell may have, it's hardly in the same category as standing face to face with God.

Signing off ... I really can't keep up the dialogue, and I'm just helping bury my own post about 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Click to expand...

Here's the thread: Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Maybe I'll start another more direct one and ask "would you have become a Christian if there was no hell?".

Fervent said:

It's funny how there's always an explanation for why they're having snide side conversations, mocking, being snarrky or directly insulting, etc. Somehow that's our fault. But if we show even an inkling of repayment in kind we're monsters.

Click to expand...

That goes both ways and is usually a result of reciprocation.

Andrewn said:

The question, for me, is whether post-mortem progression is possible at all.

Click to expand...

It already happened once with the "Harrowing of Hell".

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

public hermit said:

I don't know that they have to be ignored, but they have to be interpreted.

Click to expand...

Yes. The Damnationist position is bolstered by a biased and erroneous translation.

I'll post this in case some readers aren't familiar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

MMXX said:

What about Luke 23:34 as an answer?

Click to expand...

Many of those at the crucifixion who knew not what they were doing, were given an opportunity to get it right about six weeks later:

I think that is a repeating pattern.

public hermit said:

I don't know that they have to be ignored, but they have to be interpreted.

Click to expand...

Saint Steven said:

Yes. The Damnationist position is bolstered by a biased and erroneous translation.

Click to expand...

Awaiting your analysis of post #4496 ...

MMXX said:

That goes both ways and is usually a result of reciprocation.

Click to expand...

Great excuse for hypocrisy, I suppose. Mock, insult, and use exceedingly unkind "humor," get called on it and blame the victim, and when that fails claim it goes both ways. Reciprocation, I suppose.

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL BEFORE YOU LEAVE; IRKLE

Tell me this;
1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How in HELL could "destruction of the flesh" by "Satan" ever lead to the 'SAVING OF THE SPIRIT' of a rebellious 'CHURCH GOING MAN man', like Paul is dealing with in this verse?

Irkle Berserkle said:

You apparently would like for God to make His reality and the reality of Hell so compellingly obvious as to be coercive - to compel belief.

Click to expand...

Garbage. If that was the case, then why would the greatest evagelist, writing more of the NT than anyone else, NEVER NEVER NEVER even mention the word HELL????? (the 1 exception being, "the lying pen" of your translation's SCRIBES Jer 8:8)

Alas, that isn't what He has done. We do have plenty of evidence that many people who are presented with the full Gospel message will, in fact, reject it and even ridicule it. Your position is apparently that God should make everything soi obvious that unbelief is impossible for anyone.

Click to expand...

Garbage. Scripture states that not even YOU, were born again according to the mythical 'free' will doctrine.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a famous verse for your side in Christianity. WHERE does verse 13 say YOU are 'born again'/"born"? "of blood"/your heritage, "the will of 'your' FLESH", or the "will of man"/YOU?

In Other Words IOW, where does YOUR WILL even land, in the first "born again" salvation, that of saving of your spirit? Certainly not on the 'FREE' side.

What is the "it" you're talking about? I try to deal with reality as it is and God's message as we have it. I don't speak for God, but what makes sense to me is that He wants to spend eternity with genuine moral agents who have exercised their free will to choose what He offers and spend eternity in communion with Him. If He wanted to save everyone, regardless of what free-will choices they had made, I don't believe our reality would look the way it does or God's message would sound like it does. That's all I can tell you.

Click to expand...

Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.

JOH 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free INDEED.

Oh yes you have bought the lie that you were "free INDEED" to choose Him. But that is not scriptural. You can't even accept "THE TRUTH" of the gospel unless "God" "the Father" FIRST immerses/gives you the 'baptism of repentance', to change your mind, so that you can even choose Him. It's called "predestination" and "foreordained" in YOUR BIBLE.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God MAY PERHAPS GRANT that they will REPENT and come to know THE TRUTH,..

2TI 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

I believe "every one"means "every one". And, in this case that would mean everyone NOT SAVED and everyone like your side guys who don't agree with 'our side guys'.


PLEASE do not, RUN, WALK OR SLITHER without thinking you had 'the last word', on the 'content' of your last post.

2PhiloVoid said:

... maybe we should begin to assemble a definitive list of these two kinds of folks ... and take names.

Click to expand...

I thought kicking butts came first. As in...
Kicking butts and taking names. - lol

Irkle Berserkle said:

I was so pleased with myself after my morning run in ghastly weather conditions

Click to expand...

Tell me about it... I live in Minnesota. - lol

Irkle Berserkle said:

... those of Saint Steven’s ilk...

Click to expand...

No love lost there...

Hillsage said:

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a famous verse for your side in Christianity. WHERE does verse 13 say YOU are 'born again'/"born"? "of blood"/your heritage, "the will of 'your' FLESH", or the "will of man"/YOU?

In Other Words IOW, where does YOUR WILL even land, in the first "born again" salvation, that of saving of your spirit? Certainly not on the 'FREE' side.

Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.

Click to expand...

From our perspective, we who receive Him are born again. This is also plainly stated in the first Altar call (Acts 2:36-41).

It is the will of God for all to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:1-6. You don't have to be your own worst enemy.

Hillsage said:

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL BEFORE YOU LEAVE; IRKLE

Tell me this;
1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How in HELL could "destruction of the flesh" by "Satan" ever lead to the 'SAVING OF THE SPIRIT' of a rebellious 'CHURCH GOING MAN man', like Paul is dealing with in this verse?


Garbage. If that was the case, then why would the greatest evagelist, writing more of the NT than anyone else, NEVER NEVER NEVER even mention the word HELL????? (the 1 exception being, "the lying pen" of your translation's SCRIBES Jer 8:8)
Garbage. Scripture states that not even YOU, were born again according to the mythical 'free' will doctrine.

JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a famous verse for your side in Christianity. WHERE does verse 13 say YOU are 'born again'/"born"? "of blood"/your heritage, "the will of 'your' FLESH", or the "will of man"/YOU?

In Other Words IOW, where does YOUR WILL even land, in the first "born again" salvation, that of saving of your spirit? Certainly not on the 'FREE' side.

Your will is never truly free, until HE SETS YOU FREE.

JOH 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free INDEED.

Oh yes you have bought the lie that you were "free INDEED" to choose Him. But that is not scriptural. You can't even accept "THE TRUTH" of the gospel unless "God" "the Father" FIRST immerses/gives you the 'baptism of repentance', to change your mind, so that you can even choose Him. It's called "predestination" and "foreordained" in YOUR BIBLE.

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God MAY PERHAPS GRANT that they will REPENT and come to know THE TRUTH,..

2TI 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

I believe "every one"means "every one". And, in this case that would mean everyone NOT SAVED and everyone like your side guys who don't agree with 'our side guys'.


PLEASE do not, RUN, WALK OR SLITHER without thinking you had 'the last word', on the 'content' of your last post.

Click to expand...

Well, let's see:

• Devout Christian Hillsage begins sentences with "How in HELL ..."
• Humble Christian Hillsage declares his post "MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL"
• Kindly and loving Christian Hillsage twice characterizes what I've said as "Garbage"
• In the spirit of Christian fellowship, Hillsage urges me not to "RUN, WALK OR SLITHER" away thinking I've had the last word.

He's all yours, universalism proponents. Show him some love. I, alas, have no response short of condescending hubris.