Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

power1 said:

That is what they get when they get saved. They also get that land as promised.

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Have you never read Hebrews 11? God's people don't care about temporary earthly land, which is meaningless. They look "for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God". They "desire a better country that is heavenly and eternal.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Abraham and other Old Testament believers understood that God promised them much more than just the earthly land of promise. That's why Abraham "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God". He "sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country". He and other believers knew that God promised something more than that. That's why they "desire a better country, that is, an heavenly" which is eternal.

power1 said:

It will be sudden. The events of the Tribulation are sudden, and will the return of Jesus be. The fires that happen then are not global.

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Peter said they will be. He couldn't possibly have made that more clear in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

The new earth and the fire that destroys this earth are at the end of the 1000 years. That will be sudden also!

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Give me a break. Where does Peter ever talk about 2 separate times of destruction in 2 Peter 3? He doesn't. The sudden destruction that comes at the arrival of the day of the Lord happens once and it will be global. Paul made it clear that no one will be able to escape from it. You are not accepting what Peter and Paul taught about the day of the Lord.

sovereigngrace said:

Present Scripture instead of your opinions. This is a Bible forum.

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If you really are ignorant on this forum of basic prophesy, don't blame others.

Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

Here are more, I am sure some of these verses apply.

23 Bible verses about Land Permanently Restored To Israel

Ha

sovereigngrace said:

I can save you time. You can dig for a thousand years, but you will never find it. It is an extra-biblical theory. But i await with bated breath.

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You're on

power1 said:

So you know the verses. OK.

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He certainly didn't learn them from you since all you offer is opinions without any scriptural support.

power1 said:

Simple. As explained the only question is whether that last seven years is the wrath of God. Is it?

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No. What is the basis for that belief?

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you understand that the original manuscripts of the Bible were not written in English? The Greek word "ethnos" can mean "nations" but that isn't the best translation of the word in a verse like this or in a verse like Revelation 20:8 where the "nations" (Greek ethnos) number as the sand of the sea. Obviously, it's not really talking about nations in Revelation 20:7, but instead individuals.

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Yet nations will bring come to worship at Jerusalem. So call them whatever you like.

Again, scripture does not teach a judgment of nations. To see Matthew 25:31-46 results in the ridiculous notion of entire nations somehow either inheriting eternal life or being cast into everlasting fire. Those are things reserved for individuals, not nations.

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No. If nations are judged I would assume the wicked in those nations are who is getting dealt with mostly. He will rule with a rod of iron.

You don't even have an opinion on that? And I'm supposed to take you seriously?

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If you read the posts here you would see that I suggested that the day of the Lord covers a long time period. Deal with it.

How exactly does it come like a thief in the night if it last for 1000+ years? That makes no sense.

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To who? It is a plain as day to me. Just because He comes as a surprise does not mean He then will not rule.

How does it make sense to look forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming if the new heavens and new earth aren't even ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming?

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Well, we are ushered into eternal life right away. When He comes for us we also are ushered in New Jerusalem and the marriage Supper! Of course that is the hope of all ages. The new heavens and earth is after the 1000 years and obviously after Jesus has returned.

It makes much more sense that His second coming will be what ushers in the new heavens and new earth because Peter indicated that He will burn up the current heavens and earth when He comes.

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That opposes other prophesy and Scripture. We know when it comes. We know He rules here so not all people are going to die at that time. Once again you seek to stuff all events of the day of the Lord into a few moments after He returns. Ho hum

Paul said it will be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" and gave no indication that the destruction would not occur until a long time after Christ returns.

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The Trib is before He returns.

Both Peter and Paul warned the readers about being ready for the day of the Lord in anticipation of it's coming. Do you know why that is? Because they didn't want their readers to be among those who will have sudden destruction come upon them. They wanted them to be spiritually alert and sober and watching so that they would not be deceived and fall away before He returns.

The sudden destruction will be global. According to Peter it will be by fire and will burn up the entire earth. How do you have anyone surviving that destruction?

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No. Only in due time will the earth all be burned. That is not when Jesus returns to rule with His saints. What did you think He would be burned and us and all He ruled over!

Why do we need to be ready if the wrath and destruction Peter talked about won't even happen until 1000+ years after His coming?

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That is not what we are ready FOR. We are to be ready to meet Him.

He rules over the entire heavens and earth right now. Your understanding of His rule is flawed.

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Job 9:24
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

M

atthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

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Right. He has the power but will not impose it here until He returns. Meanwhile the AntiChrist will be in power here, and receives his power from Satan.

You are not one to call someone else hopelessly confused when NONE of your arguments are backed up with scripture.

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They all are. You are confused.

Tell me where scripture teaches that the day of the Lord is meant to be understood as a long period of time.

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Look at all the things in that day! That includes 1000 years, restoring Israel,ruling the world, etc etc.

Are you not paying attention to what I'm saying? What do you mean "what about it?". My point is that Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29 that a day is coming when all of the dead are raised.

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Which dead? The dead IN CHRIST will be raised first. Then we that are alive also, and together we meet Him in the air.

Spiritual Jew said:

He certainly didn't learn them from you since all you offer is opinions without any scriptural support.

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I don't care if he found them is a cracker Jack box.

power1 said:

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. Finally.

I'll give other posters the opportunity to provide you with support that that time is known as His wrath. If no one steps up, I'll try to dig that out for you.

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Of course it's God's wrath. That isn't what is being debated here. But Peter indicates it will be by fire upon the entire earth and Paul indicates that it will be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". It makes sense that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth. There is no indication whatsoever that this wrath would take 7 years to complete. If it did then it wouldn't make sense to call the destruction "sudden" and saying that no one can escape from it because that description implies that it will happen quickly and unexpectedly.

power1 said:

Yet nations will bring come to worship at Jerusalem. So call them whatever you like.

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How exactly do entire nations come to worship? You're not even thinking here.

No. If nations are judged I would assume the wicked in those nations are who is getting dealt with mostly. He will rule with a rod of iron.

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Mostly? So, even the righteous in those nations will get judged, too? Come on. Scripture does not teach a judgment day of nations. It only teaches a judgment day for individuals.

If you read the posts here you would see that I suggested that the day of the Lord covers a long time period. Deal with it.

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You have no scripture to back that up. You are all opinion and no scripture. How can I take you seriously when that is the case?

That opposes other prophesy and Scripture.

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Such as? Give me some scripture for once. Your opinions are getting boring.

The Trib is before He returns.

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Yes, so why do you have Him coming even before that as well then?

No. Only in due time will the earth all be burned. That is not when Jesus returns to rule with His saints. What did you think He would be burned and us and all He ruled over!

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We will meet Him in the air and won't be on the earth when the earth is being burned up. And we will have immortal bodies that can't be harmed as well.

That is not what we are ready FOR. We are to be ready to meet Him.

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Of course. Where did I say otherwise? We need to be ready to meet Him in order to avoid God's wrath. Both Paul and Peter indicated that, so the global wrath they talked about is something that their readers need to take into account. If that wrath doesn't even occur until 1000+ years after Christ's return, then what concern is that to Peter and Paul's readers, which includes us at this point?

Job 9:24
The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

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Wow, you actually quoted scripture. I'm shocked. Yes, the wicked rule over this world, but they can't do anything without Jesus allowing it. Jesus has all authority and power in heaven and on earth, just as He said. He has it now.

Right. He has the power but will not impose it here until He returns. Meanwhile the AntiChrist will be in power here, and receives his power from Satan.

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He imposes His power every day by whatever He allows Satan and his angels as well as the wicked to do.

They all are. You are confused.

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If your opinions are backed up with scripture than show me the scripture! I'm not going to take your word for it.

Look at all the things in that day! That includes 1000 years, restoring Israel,ruling the world, etc etc.

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Where does it indicate that the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord? That is your opinion. And you have no scripture to back it up. Your opinions are worthless if you can't back them up with scripture. How many times do you need to be told that until you actually start backing up your opinions with scripture?

Which dead? The dead IN CHRIST will be raised first. Then we that are alive also, and together we meet Him in the air.

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He said all of the dead, including the saved and the lost, will be resurrected on the same day. Just because believers will be raised first doesn't mean unbelievers can't be raised on the same day. Show me where in John 5:28-29 that Jesus talked about two entirely separate resurrection events separated by a long period of time such as 1000 years. He gave no indication of such a thing at all.

sovereigngrace said:

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation

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That is the return when every eye will see Him.

. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period.

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Not the same event.

Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

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The Rapture only gathers the living and those who died in Christ. That should tell us it is not the same event

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.

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Great, they will be here in the Trib. Count on it.

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  [*]These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”

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  As above.
  

  [*]It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

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  Never heard of such millennial scoffers.
  
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• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming

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  .

False. It says nothing of the kind about salvation being limited to anything.

• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.

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The destruction and wrath does get total in the end. That doesn't help you.

• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.

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Yes we will be Raptured and that day will have arrived. This is news?

• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.

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False it tells us when the earth is burned, not the moment He arrives! You made that up. The bible clearly tells us what happens after He arrives. The fire bit is much later

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• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.

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The final bit does. Also when Jesus returns He will destroy the wicked with the breath of His lips. However people born after that time will slip into wickedness eventually. They only get destroyed at the end of the 1000 years.

• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.

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• No. His rule follows. The new heaven and earth is exacly coming when the bible clearly says it will come.
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• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”

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  Of course it is connected. We will be ruling from that city. Then, when all is said and dome after the millennium, our city of God comes down and there is the new heavens and earth here.

• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

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Since the Trib is the wrath the only way we could miss that is the Rapture!

Spiritual Jew said:

No. What is the basis for that belief?

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We'll get there soon. Look at the next post, your buddy in confusion says it is the wrath!

Spiritual Jew said:

Of course it's God's wrath.

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Ah, you admit it!

That isn't what is being debated here. But Peter indicates it will be by fire upon the entire earth and Paul indicates that it will be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

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The sudden destruction is in the Trib. and when He returns to slay the wicked and rule. Probably also in that Trib time there will suddenly no longer be peace but a huge war. So probably it will also apply to some extent for that period. But ultimately, I would think that the wicked only really get totally destroyed when Jesus returns.

It makes sense that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

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That is foolish.

There is no indication whatsoever that this wrath would take 7 years to complete.

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Lots of seals to open and trumpets to blow and events to happen in that time. Of course it takes years.

If it did then it wouldn't make sense to call the destruction "sudden" and saying that no one can escape from it because that description implies that it will happen quickly and unexpectedly.

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Not all destructions are the one being talked about there!

power1 said:

Why would I have to know all the reasons He does what He does? I could guess. When nations go to war, what is the first thing they usually do? Withdraw their ambassadors. Then...boom.

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So, it doesn't matter if your belief makes any sense or not? Is that what you're telling me? I believe we will meet Him in the air because the heavens and the earth will be burned up at that point. I think it makes a lot of sense to not be left on the earth while it's being burned up. But, meeting Him in the air and then being taken to heaven, as you believe, instead of just being taken directly to heaven? That makes no sense at all.

power1 said:

We'll get there soon. Look at the next post, your buddy in confusion says it is the wrath!

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What are you talking about and who are you talking about? If you mean sovereigngrace, he does not believe the last 7 years before Christ's return is the wrath of God, so I don't know where you're getting that from. You are so terribly confused and I think the reason is that you've never studied these things for yourself and are just sharing what you've been taught. If you studied these things for yourself you'd be able to back up your opinions with scripture. But, you are strongly coming across that you're just reciting what you've been taught and that's it.

sovereigngrace said:

There was absolutely no call for this type of response from a simple inoffensive question. It obviously exposed a vulnerable point in your doctrine.

I notice you immediately and unfairly attack the messenger when I asked you a basic innocuous question. You insist: Revelation tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive before the millennium when you and every poster here knows it is the opposite. That may explain your ad hominem tactics.

You also put in quotes something i have never said in an attempt to malign me. I did not say: "'the fallacy and preposterous nature' of the whole idea of this literal millennium and 'how unbiblical it is'." You did that yourself. That is intentionally misleading.

Most importantly, you are unable to support your claim by hard Scripture. You know the new heavens and new earth do not arrive until after the millennium. Check Revelation 21.

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I wasn't attacking you at all. What I said to you is not personal against you or against what you believe in any way, shape or form. I was only trying to tell you why I think it's pointless me debating further with you because we are in a stalemate as can now also be seen by the fact that you took my post up personally and as an ad hominem attack.

I know you have never used the words "'the fallacy and preposterous nature' of the whole idea of this literal millennium and 'how unbiblical it is'." I was trying to let you understand that I know and understand where you are coming from and why you don't let it go once you've reached a stalemate with someone. It's obvious (because of your many posts about it) that to you, the whole idea of a millennium is preposterous, and the fact that you post so much about this one topic means that it must upset you that people believe the millennium is literal.

I was being 100% empathetic with your position and belief about the subject and I told you I don't have a problem with the above. I told you I'm 100% okay with what you believe and how you feel about the idea that the millennium is literal. When I said I'm glad you're a believer saved by grace, and I'm thankful for your salvation too I was being 100% honest. I meant what I said. I means: I don't have a problem with what you believe or with the fact that you disagree with me but I don't see the point in us continuing to debate it, because we just argue forever and I'm sure the cows must be really sick of all the noise we make. It makes them want to go back out to pasture.

I was neither insulting you nor trying to insult you. It was not a personal attack or an ad hominem attack. All I was telling you was that I understand how you feel about it and about the fact that people (from your perspective) hang onto this idea of a literal millennium which (from your perspective) is preposterous (because you've stated over and over why you believe it's unbiblical by quoting scriptures over and over which (from your perspective) negates the arguments of Pre-millennialists.. Bad words to choose on my behalf because you took it up personally.

power1 said:

Ah, you admit it!

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Yes, the global sudden destruction that will come down on unbelievers at the second coming of Christ is God's wrath. Why is that something to "admit"? It's obvious.

The sudden destruction is in the Trib. and when He returns to slay the wicked and rule. Probably also in that Trib time there will suddenly no longer be peace but a huge war. So probably it will also apply to some extent for that period. But ultimately, I would think that the wicked only really get totally destroyed when Jesus returns.

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LOL. "Probably"? You seem to think you're making convincing arguments in this thread but they are extremely weak and unconvincing. You have no scripture to back up your opinions. As evidenced by the fact that you don't even attempt to back up your opinions with scripture.

That is foolish.

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It's foolish to think that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Really?

Lots of seals to open and trumpets to blow and events to happen in that time. Of course it takes years.

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Where does Peter indicate that in 2 Peter 3? Where does Paul indicate that in 1 Thessalonians 5? I'm talking about the wrath that comes down when Jesus returns and takes vengeance on His enemies (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thess 5:2-3, etc.). That will not take years.

Not all destructions are the one being talked about there!

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I'm talking about the destruction that Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3 and Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 5. What they talked about is global destruction occurring on the day Christ returns. None of the wicked will survive that and the righteous will all be "changed" and have immortal bodies at that time. This doesn't allow for an earthly millennial kingdom to occur after Christ returns.