Why Christian nations are not acting Christian

Kettriken

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The case can be looked up, I don't care to debate it here anymore.

Indeed it can. Your confidence led me to believe you had the information readily available.

Not flukes, there were enough people who voted for them to get them elected according to the system we have, and those who voted for them had their reasons.

Not disputing that people had their reasons, just that more people, many of them Christians, with their reasons, voted for the candidate who was not elected under our system. Not trying to draw you into a debate that you don't wish to have, just stating that this is either a fluke or disenfranchisement.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?

The notion of a "Christian nation" is intrinsically nonsensical.

There are instead nations who have, historically, been predominantly Christian and whose rulers and governors (etc) have been Christian. But nation-states cannot be baptized, nation-states cannot receive the Lord's Supper, nation-states cannot confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Only human persons can do that.

When Jesus says "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", the Greek word there for "nations" is ethne. The same word we get "ethnicity" and other related words in English. It refers to people of every possible conceivable background, regardless of where they live, what language they speak, what color their skin is, none of that matters. All people, of all nationalities, all tribes, all people groups.

The very problems you mention are precisely why I think it is important for the Church to eschew all political power in favor for the weakness of the Cross.

The experiment that began with the conversion of Constantine and continued right up until recent times in which state and religion became frequently confused together has resulted in a horrific history of Christians taking on the role of the persecutor and the oppressor. I believe it is essential that, today, the Church repudiate these things. Not by denying they happened, or denying they were as bad as they were, or claiming "Those weren't real Christians". But rather to acknowledge the evil for being evil, and to make active efforts to ensure that sort of thing cannot happen again.

The Church's own sacred ministry is impaired because there is a large segment of the Christian Church that wants to ignore, cover up, or pretend these things didn't happen; or that it was someone else's problem. Instead of recognizing that Christians, the Church herself--Christ's own Bride and Body--has been responsible for intense pain around the world.

The Church needs repentance.
The Church needs humility.
The Church needs to remember that her Lord is the One who was crucified and that He stands in solidarity with the victims of oppression, He stands with the weak, the powerless, the dying, the sick, and the unwanted.

If the Church is not on the side of the poor and the oppressed and the hurting and the damaged and the wounded--then she is not on Jesus' side. Because Jesus stands with the least of these, He identifies with the least of these. And He says that how we treat "the least of these" is how we treat Him. And come Judgment Day, how we treated the least and the lowliest among us is the metric by which we shall be judged. And no amount of boasting about how many great and wonderful works we did "for Jesus" is going to matter (Matthew 7:21-23).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Halbhh

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Thank you. This is an interesting explanation. But some atrocities are perpetrated by thousands if not millions. So to say an insividual such as a leader is acting badly and using Christianity as an excuse and blinding everyone, but how about people who underdstabd what’s going on? Or who perpetrate bad evil actions directly? Don’t they realize what they’re doing is wrong?

This really interests me. I read a lot about history of wars, and one German soldier who burnt a Ukranian village during WWII with some people in the houses when captured did not feel any remorse. He was a devout Lutheran Christian, carried a pocket NT, prayed every morning etc. He said, I got an order to burn the village fast, so I didn’t waste time to check if there were people inside when burning the houses. He absolutely considered himself to be totally innocent - he said I was simply following orders…. Women, old men, kids were most of his victims…


"but how about people who underdstabd what’s going on?"
Like Bonhoeffer then? --
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - Wikipedia

Answer: we'd each be responsible, individually, in our individual unique ways, since we have individually unique capacities, to do what is right, in unique ways, since we individually understand different things, and have different situations/places/experiences/opportunities.

So, to do like Bonhoeffer, I would not be able to do precisely what Bonhoeffer did, but I can do what halbhh could do...

Right?

(Yes, and it won't look the same, since I'd be in a different place, with different situations and different opportunities and different resources at my disposal)

Here's a deep question you included:
Don’t they realize what they’re doing is wrong?

That's not an easy one, in that while you could find certainly some that appear to know they are doing evil, there will of course be plenty that don't realize much what is happening wrong, and how they indirectly or even directly contribute to what is happening wrong. So, judging the individual is above our pay grade, in that we just don't have the omniscient capacity to see all their thoughts or know all they do (when no mortal is watching). At best, we can assess (if we are careful) particular actions that are directly visible, which still of course falls short of knowing what all is in that individual's thoughts and views about what they are doing and why and so on.

But your broader question might be: what about people that know on some level they are participating in a wrong?

Here's what:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:6-16 - New International Version

And this is why, ultimately, that we all need His help. None of us achieves that true lasting Good on our own without Him.

Look, while I will give you a hint of what you could learn, I hope instead of just asking the next question, you'll start reading to hear more of what He taught:

Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

and then consider:

1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."


So, while this answers your question, you might not really get that fully just from this isolated quote, unless you read through the gospels with full listening, yourself.
 
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BigV

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Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?

In a sense, the idea of spreading your way of life is very Christian. I was just reading today about Columbus writing about the Native Indians that he met, and how easy they were to convert to Christianity. And also to enslave.

Christianity has the idea of exclusion. There’s the right way and then the wrong way. If you don’t want to do things my way, something is wrong with you. I think this thinking explains American Evangelical unquestionable support for the military and American wars.

Now, when it comes to the actual teachings of Jesus, then capitalist world has a problem. Jesus was a communist, calling for forsaking possessions (Luke 14:33). But it’s impossible to live like this. Communism doesn’t work. So, Christians just follow the bits that do work.
 
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James_Lai

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In a sense, the idea of spreading your way of life is very Christian. I was just reading today about Columbus writing about the Native Indians that he met, and how easy they were to convert to Christianity. And also to enslave.

Christianity has the idea of exclusion. There’s the right way and then the wrong way. If you don’t want to do things my way, something is wrong with you. I think this thinking explains American Evangelical unquestionable support for the military and American wars.

Now, when it comes to the actual teachings of Jesus, then capitalist world has a problem. Jesus was a communist, calling for forsaking possessions (Luke 14:33). But it’s impossible to live like this. Communism doesn’t work. So, Christians just follow the bits that do work.

I sometimes think if there’s an inherent problem with Christianity that leads to such consequences. I haven’t figured it out. Communism does work, proven by China. The USSR was a success as well, destroyed by betrayal of its elite who wanted to legitimize their riches in the West.
 
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BigV

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I sometimes think if there’s an inherent problem with Christianity that leads to such consequences. I haven’t figured it out. Communism does work, proven by China. The USSR was a success as well, destroyed by betrayal of its elite who wanted to legitimize their riches in the West.

Based on my understanding, Soviet communism worked up until the 1950s, which allowed USSR to keep increasing its production output despite a civil war and then the Great Patriotic War (ww2). However, after the death of Stalin, the USSR started its decline. So the system was too dependent on a good leader. As I’m living in the US, I realize that capitalism too is declining and probably collapsing. Capitalism won, in that it has spread over the whole globe. However, with capitalism there’s unsustainable debt that keeps growing, and it cannot keep increasing like this forever.
 
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James_Lai

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Based on my understanding, Soviet communism worked up until the 1950s, which allowed USSR to keep increasing its production output despite a civil war and then the Great Patriotic War (ww2). However, after the death of Stalin, the USSR started its decline. So the system was too dependent on a good leader. As I’m living in the US, I realize that capitalism too is declining and probably collapsing. Capitalism won, in that it has spread over the whole globe. However, with capitalism there’s unsustainable debt that keeps growing, and it cannot keep increasing like this forever.

The USSR was in a much better position in the 1980s when Mr Gorby came to power than China during the reforms of Deng Xiaoping at the same time. The USSR was a global superpower with the highest standard of living for all people. Look at China today. So Russia needed intelligent reforms, instead, their ruling elite decided to self-terminate. They bitterly betrayed their nation, all for the greenback.

Capitalism is unsustainable because it proclaims limitless consumption and growth. In a situation of limited resources it’s got to end one day, which is what’s been happening. It’s a classical Ponzi scheme.
 
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BigV

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The USSR was in a much better position in the 1980s when Mr Gorby came to power than China during the reforms of Deng Xiaoping at the same time. The USSR was a global superpower with the highest standard of living for all people. Look at China today. So Russia needed intelligent reforms, instead, their ruling elite decided to self-terminate. They bitterly betrayed their nation, all for the greenback.

I hate to disagree with you, but in USSR was in a very bad shape in the 1980s. Gorby finished off the USSR, but it was already way on the way of collapse. Bad management, angry people. In fact, I remember the people were all looking at the West, and the US as a role model. So, if we could go back in time and land in 1980s USSR, people would be upset at you for telling them they have the highest standards of living. Now, 1950s USSR - different story.

I'm of the opinion that America succeeded for the following reasons:
1. Bretton Woods conference, mad the US dollar a world reserve currency. The promise was made (later revoked) of backing each dollar with gold, which created a demand for $$$s.
2. Later, when Pres. Nixon went off the gold standard, the US talked the OPEC nations into selling oil in US dollars, which continued the demand for $$$'s.

Soviet Union did not have an alternative system, and ended up using dollars as well. And once it's economy was dependent on dollars, it was game over.

Seems this is the lesson that current leadership of Russia and China has learned well, by trying to be protected from the dollar.
 
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James_Lai

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I hate to disagree with you, but in USSR was in a very bad shape in the 1980s. Gorby finished off the USSR, but it was already way on the way of collapse. Bad management, angry people. In fact, I remember the people were all looking at the West, and the US as a role model. So, if we could go back in time and land in 1980s USSR, people would be upset at you for telling them they have the highest standards of living. Now, 1950s USSR - different story.

I'm of the opinion that America succeeded for the following reasons:
1. Bretton Woods conference, mad the US dollar a world reserve currency. The promise was made (later revoked) of backing each dollar with gold, which created a demand for $$$s.
2. Later, when Pres. Nixon went off the gold standard, the US talked the OPEC nations into selling oil in US dollars, which continued the demand for $$$'s.

Soviet Union did not have an alternative system, and ended up using dollars as well. And once it's economy was dependent on dollars, it was game over.

Seems this is the lesson that current leadership of Russia and China has learned well, by trying to be protected from the dollar.

Are your parents and siblings if you have any Christian believers? Are they trying to make you return to the faith? Do they believe you lost salvation forever, or do they hold to “once saves always saved” assurance?
 
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BigV

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Are your parents and siblings if you have any Christian believers? Are they trying to make you return to the faith? Do they believe you lost salvation forever, or do they hold to “once saves always saved” assurance?
I speak/write as I'm a kid still, but I'm in my mid 40s (45 exactly this year). My dad is a pastor, now retired. All my siblings are evangelical baptists. (Btw, Russian/Ukrainian Baptists share more in common with American Mennonites in theology as your Ukrainian friend can probably confirm too.). They have tried to return me to the faith, but we are at a standstill. We understand each other's positions so we agree to disagree. My wife and children are religious as well. My wife's side is a bit more tolerant of my views, we don't get into debates nearly as often as with my family, but perhaps its due to my dad having been a pastor and generally being more intense in his views. My family believes in OSAS, but with condition that faith must be present. So, if there is no faith, there is no salvation. When I was a Christian, I held to a more radical view. I believed in OSAS even if faith disappeared.
 
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Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?
Mainly because they have no real idea of who Jesus Christ actually is.
 
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James_Lai

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I speak/write as I'm a kid still, but I'm in my mid 40s (45 exactly this year). My dad is a pastor, now retired. All my siblings are evangelical baptists. (Btw, Russian/Ukrainian Baptists share more in common with American Mennonites in theology as your Ukrainian friend can probably confirm too.). They have tried to return me to the faith, but we are at a standstill. We understand each other's positions so we agree to disagree. My wife and children are religious as well. My wife's side is a bit more tolerant of my views, we don't get into debates nearly as often as with my family, but perhaps its due to my dad having been a pastor and generally being more intense in his views. My family believes in OSAS, but with condition that faith must be present. So, if there is no faith, there is no salvation. When I was a Christian, I held to a more radical view. I believed in OSAS even if faith disappeared.

Wow, I truly admire you for standing up for your views… I suppose it wasn’t easy to come out as an atheist. Brave… Why did you decide to reject the faith of your parents, family and friends? It was all you knew… Do you feel isolated? Or have you found like-minded people?
 
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James_Lai

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I hate to disagree with you, but in USSR was in a very bad shape in the 1980s. Gorby finished off the USSR, but it was already way on the way of collapse. Bad management, angry people. In fact, I remember the people were all looking at the West, and the US as a role model. So, if we could go back in time and land in 1980s USSR, people would be upset at you for telling them they have the highest standards of living. Now, 1950s USSR - different story.

I'm of the opinion that America succeeded for the following reasons:
1. Bretton Woods conference, mad the US dollar a world reserve currency. The promise was made (later revoked) of backing each dollar with gold, which created a demand for $$$s.
2. Later, when Pres. Nixon went off the gold standard, the US talked the OPEC nations into selling oil in US dollars, which continued the demand for $$$'s.

Soviet Union did not have an alternative system, and ended up using dollars as well. And once it's economy was dependent on dollars, it was game over.

Seems this is the lesson that current leadership of Russia and China has learned well, by trying to be protected from the dollar.

Maybe one of the reasons Christianity causes aggressive behaviour is because they only worship male deities? God, Jesus, and even the Holy Spirit is somehow deemed to be a man. Creative femininity, which is the protective and nurturing side of life, is being trampled: women are second-class creatures, in the OT law they’re not worth as much as men and in the NT they are to cover their heads and be silent and are declared more sinful as Eve sinned first and can be saved through child-bearing only…
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Maybe one of the reasons Christianity creates aggressive behaviour is because they only worship male deities? God, Jesus, and even the Holy Spirit is somehow deemed to be a man. Creative femininity, which is the protective and nurturing side of life, is being trampled: women are second-class creatures, in the OT law they’re not worth as much as men and in the NT they are to cover their heads and be silent and are declared more sinful as Eve sinned first and can be saved through child-bearing only…

Actually,

... The grammatical gender of the word for "spirit" is feminine in Hebrew (רוּחַ, rūaḥ), neuter in Greek (πνεῦμα, pneûma) and masculine in Latin (spiritus)...
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Maybe one of the reasons Christianity creates aggressive behaviour is because they only worship male deities? God, Jesus, and even the Holy Spirit is somehow deemed to be a man. Creative femininity, which is the protective and nurturing side of life, is being trampled: women are second-class creatures, in the OT law they’re not worth as much as men and in the NT they are to cover their heads and be silent and are declared more sinful as Eve sinned first and can be saved through child-bearing only…

An additional note should be inserted here as well: The idea that the first letter of Paul to Timothy [however debateable its authenticity may be] can be scoured with some heavier duty hermeneutical consideration, such as has been done by Kroeger & Kroeger in their book, I Suffer Not A Woman: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in light of ancient evidence (1992).

I have yet to see a complete and convincing rebuttle of Kroeger & Kroeger's position. In fact, I dare people to do so. Mainly because they so often don't bother to lift a finger to do so.
 
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BigV

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Wow, I truly admire you for standing up for your views… I suppose it wasn’t easy to come out as an atheist. Brave… Why did you decide to reject the faith of your parents, family and friends? It was all you knew… Do you feel isolated? Or have you found like-minded people?

I was strangely drawn to the truth. I remember listening to the talk by Jordan Peterson (JP), a Canadian psychologist and a Christian himself (although he may be very liberal with his views, I don't believe he goes to church even). JP said (and I don't recall if it was his own idea or if he was quoting someone) that Christianity ironically can lead to atheism with it's drive for truth. Most Protestant Christians want to only believe things that are absolutely true. They believe that their religion is the only true religion, where as other religions can allow for some diversity of thoughts and beliefs. And so I too was driven to the truth. I believed that God is absolutely real, but I was troubled by the contradictions. The major contradiction, in my view, was contradiction in the doctrine of salvation, a basic doctrine. If you read the New Testament, you'll find that teachings on salvation are very unclear. There are verses that teach that you only need to believe in Jesus (such as John 3:16, Romans 4:3), but others teach that you also need to repent (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22), also need to baptized (Acts 2:38). Now, there are debates that continue among Christians to this day, but the point is, that at the end of the day, one has to come up with an understanding without any way of knowing if their understanding is accurate. And so, it's common to find Christians who doubt their salvation. You can search these very forums for examples.

And so, this doubt bothered me, and I started digging. The route was scary and exciting at the same time. I imagine it's similar to primitive humans studying the fire. On the one hand, fire can kill, on the other, it can warm you if you understand how it works and how it can be contained. And so it is with Christianity. On the one hand, this God is a consuming fire, so you don't want to go against him. The stakes are very high, if I'm wrong, I'm going to hell, for all eternity. But, on the other hand, this God may just be a figment of people's imagination and not be scary at all.

As I'm thinking about this, I am realizing that I still have uncertainty. As a Christian, I struggled with my own salvation, was I truly saved, am I accepted by God, etc... But as an atheist, I struggle with doubt and potentially meeting a God who had an explanation for everything but that defies human reason. (Btw, this last explanation works for all religions). Anyways, this is my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
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BigV

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Maybe one of the reasons Christianity causes aggressive behaviour is because they only worship male deities?

I think this has to do with psychology. Christianity is based on fear, and fearful people tend to be aggressive either to self or others (or self AND others). Partially, aggression covers up fears.
 
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James_Lai

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Actually,

... The grammatical gender of the word for "spirit" is feminine in Hebrew (רוּחַ, rūaḥ), neuter in Greek (πνεῦμα, pneûma) and masculine in Latin (spiritus)...

Thank you! Interesting

Yes, but nobody takes the Holy Spirit to be a Her. Still a masculine force. Grammatical gender isn’t always implying a biological gender as is in some names in the languages where gender category exists. A name could be grammatically classified for example as feminine in its form but used for a boy. So it’s not straight-forward.
 
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James_Lai

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I was strangely drawn to the truth. I remember listening to the talk by Jordan Peterson (JP), a Canadian psychologist and a Christian himself (although he may be very liberal with his views, I don't believe he goes to church even). JP said (and I don't recall if it was his own idea or if he was quoting someone) that Christianity ironically can lead to atheism with it's drive for truth. Most Protestant Christians want to only believe things that are absolutely true. They believe that their religion is the only true religion, where as other religions can allow for some diversity of thoughts and beliefs. And so I too was driven to the truth. I believed that God is absolutely real, but I was troubled by the contradictions. The major contradiction, in my view, was contradiction in the doctrine of salvation, a basic doctrine. If you read the New Testament, you'll find that teachings on salvation are very unclear. There are verses that teach that you only need to believe in Jesus (such as John 3:16, Romans 4:3), but others teach that you also need to repent (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22), also need to baptized (Acts 2:38). Now, there are debates that continue among Christians to this day, but the point is, that at the end of the day, one has to come up with an understanding without any way of knowing if their understanding is accurate. And so, it's common to find Christians who doubt their salvation. You can search these very forums for examples.

And so, this doubt bothered me, and I started digging. The route was scary and exciting at the same time. I imagine it's similar to primitive humans studying the fire. On the one hand, fire can kill, on the other, it can warm you if you understand how it works and how it can be contained. And so it is with Christianity. On the one hand, this God is a consuming fire, so you don't want to go against him. The stakes are very high, if I'm wrong, I'm going to hell, for all eternity. But, on the other hand, this God may just be a figment of people's imagination and not be scary at all.

As I'm thinking about this, I am realizing that I still have uncertainty. As a Christian, I struggled with my own salvation, was I truly saved, am I accepted by God, etc... But as an atheist, I struggle with doubt and potentially meeting a God who had an explanation for everything but that defies human reason. (Btw, this last explanation works for all religions). Anyways, this is my story and I'm sticking to it.

Thank you for sharing your path and your honesty to tell things how they were and still are! I appreciate it very much. You tell this matter-of-factly today, but I bet it hasn’t been easy… I can’t imagine working through ideas that have been ingrained in you since birth… You still struggle with them as you said … Like fear of hell…

How about the second part of my question? Losing your old circle of friends and family, have you found a new community of like-minded people or are you like John a lonely voice in the wilderness?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thank you! Interesting

Yes, but nobody takes the Holy Spirit to be a Her. Still a masculine force. Grammatical gender isn’t always implying a biological gender as is in some names in the languages where gender category exists. A name could be grammatically classified for example as feminine in its form but used for a boy. So it’s not straight-forward.

Who says the Holy Spirit is a masculine force? You can't just say that without backing up your statement with sources, James. Maybe it is, but you need to show from whom you've borrowed that idea.
 
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