Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace said:

who are these sainst who possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

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There will be untold millions of new believers after we are taken to be with Him.

sovereigngrace said:

Stop avoiding the obvious. Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

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Where does it say it is still here? Nowhere.

sovereigngrace said:

Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?

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That is not a short answer. Start with the Rapture. You know where that is found.

power1 said:

There will be untold millions of new believers after we are taken to be with Him.

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And what are believers according to the NT? Are they not the church at that point? Pretrib has the church removed yet has the church still here if there are untold millions of new believers after the rapture. Which is it? Is the church no longer here, or is it still here?

DavidPT said:

And what are believers according to the NT? Are they not the church at that point? Pretrib has the church removed yet has the church still here if there are untold millions of new believers after the rapture. Which is it? Is the church no longer here, or is it still here?

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No. The church is gone. The new believers will be Tribulation saints and that will include in the end, all Israel!

sovereigngrace said:

This totally demolishes Pretrib. The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

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You did mention someone I never heard of, as if he invented the bible and prophesy. No. As for the claim something 'demolishes' "pretrib" you forgot to show what or how.

power1 said:

Why ask me, it isn't my idea it is God's.

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Not so.
Why deal with all the living and then suspend the same righteous judgment of the dead?

Jesus clearly teaches that his appearing deals with both...multiple times....as already posted.



[ In the rewards we receive from Jesus, there are different ones. Some great and some not as great. In the judgment of the wicked the same thing goes. There are different levels of punishment.]


This can not be corroborated with a NT quote. Prove me wrong....

Jesus clearly said that those who are his will inherit the ultimate blessing created from the foundation of the world , while the rest will take part in the LOF prepped for the devil and his angels.
Show me these conflicting levels of punishment that the Lord talked about...

sovereigngrace said:

Ahhhh. Exactly. You are arguing from silence. All non-Pretribbers know that. You have obviously nothing.

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No. Being caught up into the air means we are very gone from earth.

jeffweedaman said:

Not so.
Why deal with all the living and then suspend the same righteous judgment of the dead?

Jesus clearly teaches that his appearing deals with both...multiple times....as already posted.

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He never said all the dead at the same time. Sorry.

[ In the rewards we receive from Jesus, there are different ones. Some great and some not as great. In the judgment of the wicked the same thing goes. There are different levels of punishment.]


This can not be corroborated with a NT quote. Prove me wrong....

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Some will receive many stripes, others few. Some have great rewards. Some receive many talents, others none, others few.

Jesus clearly said that those who are his will inherit the ultimate blessing created from the foundation of the world , while the rest will take part in the LOF prepped for the devil and his angels.
Show me these conflicting levels of punishment

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He did plan for our salvation from the beginning.

sovereigngrace said:

He is the Father of Pretrib.

The absence of the word means nothing, as various other books prove. This negates your reasoning God's people the Church are known by all these terms I presented.

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No. He is a nobody I have never heard of.

power1 said:

He never said all the dead at the same time. Sorry.

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He implies that in the strongest possible language.

2Tim 4

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


I understand the above verses to be saying that the Lord will judge the living and the dead when he appears.
When he appears the righteous , whether living or dead , are rewarded with a glorious crown.
As for the unrighteous living and dead, they will have to give account for their rejection of God and his saving Gospel....,


1Pet 4
4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.



They are seen to give an account in Matt 25, when the Lord comes in Glory to take his seat in judgment. Doesnt end well for them.
He throws them into the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels.


We are solemnly charged to testify to the world this fact.....that Jesus is coming to take his seat as judge of the living and the dead when he appears.

The judge is already standing at the door ready yes, according to James.

God has indeed fixed a day, an hour, when he will judge the world in righteousness through the Lord Jesus Christ whom he raised from the dead.

Matt 16
Jesus said...,
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Every man whether living or dead will be repayed when he comes.

power1 said:

Reserved. The date of that reservation is after the 1000 years. That is part of the day of the Lord.

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In the past I have entertained that the thousand years might be part of the DOTL. Personally, I take the thousand years to involve a literal thousand years, no more, no less.

This presents a problem once satan is loosed. It would then no longer be the thousand years, thus it would no longer be the day of the Lord, assuming this scenario. 2 Peter 3 indicates that the heavens and earth pass away during the day of the Lord, not post that day.

In order to agree with 2 Peter 3, even if the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord, the heavens and earth have to pass away at the beginning of it since at the end of the thousand years it would no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. It would be satan's little season instead.

DavidPT said:

In the past I have entertained that the thousand years might be part of the DOTL. Personally, I take the thousand years to involve a literal thousand years, no more, no less.

This presents a problem once satan is loosed. It would then no longer be the thousand years, thus it would no longer be the day of the Lord, assuming this scenario. 2 Peter 3 indicates that the heavens and earth pass away during the day of the Lord, not post that day.

In order to agree with 2 Peter 3, even if the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord, the heavens and earth have to pass away at the beginning of it since at the end of the thousand years it would no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. It would be satan's little season instead.

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Whats the outcome of the final outrageous season?
The answer is the righteous judgment of God on those who refused to love the truth and so be saved. This has the second coming of the Lord in the glory of his Father written all over it.