Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
No. The church is not even mentioned after Rev 4 until we see it in heaven later at the end of the book. There is no church on earth when Israel gets saved.

Ahhhh. So, you are Pretrib. I suspected that. Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
Lots of things occur when He returns and shortly after and 1000 years after. All in that day of the Lord. So?

As i have proved, and as you have avoided, there is nothing elsewhere in Scripture to locate the millennium after the climactic return of Christ.

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
As i have proved, and as you have avoided, there is nothing elsewhere in Scripture to locate the millennium after the climactic return of Christ.

Empty blather. You have so far showed nothing more than a deep confusion and lack of ability to comprehend what you spam.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
No. The church is not even mentioned after Rev 4 until we see it in heaven later at the end of the book. There is no church on earth when Israel gets saved.

The Church is found throughout Rev 4-19.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. We are therefore looking at true believers in Christ.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His Coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

jeffweedaman · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
So He is judging nations at that time. Not the dead. Simple. The dead are raised to be judged after the 1000 years.

Why wait to judge the dead ?

If the living are judged prior to the dead then why wait a thousand years? What can possibly change when the dead are going to be judged according to what they had done anyway....?

Guojing · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
No. The church is not even mentioned after Rev 4 until we see it in heaven later at the end of the book. There is no church on earth when Israel gets saved.

To be clear, you are talking about the Body of Christ.

The English word "church" means called out assembly in the Greek.

There will be churches throughout the 7 years of Tribulation, called out assemblies of believers who are trusting God will protect them during those 7 years, using the familiar passages of Psalms 23 and Psalms 91.

DavidPT · Dec 27, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Why wait to judge the dead ?

If the living are judged prior to the dead then why wait a thousand years? What can possibly change when the dead are going to be judged according to what they had done anyway....?

Couldn't one also argue, that when satan initially fell, why wait and judge him thousands of years later when he is cast into the LOF? Why can there be exceptions in satan's case, but there can't be exceptions in man's case?

For example. No one finds it unbelievable that satan can be in the literal physical presence of God then still rebel. But if man does this, thus is in the literal presence of God, as in during the millennium after Christ has bodily returned, then rebels in the end, this is totally unreasonable, not believable. How can man doing something crazy like that? How can an even more intelligent being, meaning satan, do something crazy like that himself? Yet, he did, didn't he?

Guojing · Dec 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
Couldn't one also argue, that when satan initially fell, why wait and judge him thousands of years later when he is cast into the LOF? Why can there be exceptions in satan's case, but there can't be exceptions in man's case?

For example. No one finds it unbelievable that satan can be in the literal physical presence of God then still rebel. But if man does this, thus is in the literal presence of God, as in during the millennium after Christ has bodily returned, then rebels in the end, this is totally unreasonable, not believable. How can man doing something crazy like that? How can an even more intelligent being, meaning satan, do something crazy like that himself? Yet, he did, didn't he?

In this age, some will think that "If only God show himself more, more people would believe in him".

But in the age to come, the millennial, God will lay this notion to rest. Even if everyone sees God in Jerusalem, there will still be people who will choose to rebel, when Satan is released after that 1000 years.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

Guojing said:
In this age, some will think that "If only God show himself more, more people would believe in him".

But in the age to come, the millennial, God will lay this notion to rest. Even if everyone sees God in Jerusalem, there will still be people who will choose to rebel, when Satan is released after that 1000 years.

That is all mere opinion. Better to quote Scripture, because it negates Premil. In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. Whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), Jesus presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone. This could never refer to the unsaved, mortals of any kind, or the nations that come against Jerusalem as some suggest. These would all obviously eventually die. Such people are expressly barred from the age to come. This is speaking about immortal glorified believers only.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

jeffweedaman · Dec 27, 2021

DavidPT said:
Couldn't one also argue, that when satan initially fell, why wait and judge him thousands of years later when he is cast into the LOF?

The prince of this world is judged already though..... yes?
So that is a fact.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jn 16
8 And He, when He comes, ( Holy Spirit ) will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment:

9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me;
11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

We have the Gospel going global that will pillage his goods globally ....., they are people who belong to all tribes and tongues, before judgment finally falls when the final END comes with his glorious appearing in the full glory of his Father the last day of this Gospel age.

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The Church is found throughout Rev 4-19.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

You are confused with saints of various times, and the church.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. We are therefore looking at true believers in Christ.

Context.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

Says who?

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

Except church is mentione a lot until chapter 4. Not after. You impose your confused dogma onto Rev.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

Except there is zero mention of church. Guess that means it is in your head only. You take any mention of believers in any place and time and stick the world church in there. That is foolishness.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
You are confused with saints of various times, and the church.
Context.

Says who?
Except church is mentione a lot until chapter 4. Not after. You impose your confused dogma onto Rev.

Except there is zero mention of church. Guess that means it is in your head only. You take any mention of believers in any place and time and stick the world church in there. That is foolishness.

You deny repeated NT truth here, and avoid the other evidence that exposes Pretrib. That is because there is nothing here about some called future rapture followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming. There is nothing!

Why do you avoid the $64,000,000 question? Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Why wait to judge the dead ?

Why ask me, it isn't my idea it is God's.

If the living are judged prior to the dead then why wait a thousand years?

Ask God. I could guess. Maybe by the end of that 1000 years the final rebellion is squashed, Satan tossed forever into the lake of fire, and it is time to wrap it all up and deal with judgment?

What can possibly change when the dead are going to be judged according to what they had done anyway....?

In the rewards we receive from Jesus, there are different ones. Some great and some not as great. In the judgment of the wicked the same thing goes. There are different levels of punishment.

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

Guojing said:
To be clear, you are talking about the Body of Christ.

The English word "church" means called out assembly in the Greek.

There will be churches throughout the 7 years of Tribulation, called out assemblies of believers who are trusting God will protect them during those 7 years, using the familiar passages of Psalms 23 and Psalms 91.

No. By church one usually means believers in Jesus, and more specifically those who came to believe in Him between the first coming and the Rapture! Saints in the millennium and the Trib are not the church any more than Noah was the church.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
You are confused with saints of various times, and the church.
Context.

Says who?
Except church is mentione a lot until chapter 4. Not after. You impose your confused dogma onto Rev.

Except there is zero mention of church. Guess that means it is in your head only. You take any mention of believers in any place and time and stick the world church in there. That is foolishness.

I am not confused. There is no division amongst the people of God. Dispys wrongly invent a racial apartheid amongst believers.

The word "Church" (ekklesia) is also not found anywhere in the New Testament books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude, yet the Church is undoubtedly the recipient of these inspired gospels and epistles and is continually referred to under many varying descriptions throughout them. Like the whole book of Revelation, these books use varying descriptions of the Church of Jesus Christ such as “saints,” “elect,” “redeemed,” “brethren” and “servants.”

Moreover, the word ‘Church’ is also not used in relation to the overall body of Christ in Romans, 2 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Philemon and I Peter, but is only used in the context of the local visible gathering of God’s people, a number that quite often included professors and false-professors alike. However, the true Church – the body of Christ – relates solely to Christ’s blood-bought alone.

If the Pretrib logic is correct, and if its adherents are consistent, then the Pretribber must believe that the aforementioned New Testament books have absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the Church of Jesus Christ in this day of grace, but are rather only applicable to the Jews in a supposed seven-year tribulation period? Ironically, the one gospel that the Pretribs contend is written exclusively to the Jews, and has therefore an important relevance to them in the Great Tribulation, is the only gospel that mentions the Church – Matthew. Even then, it is worth noting, we see no mention of the word Church after Matthew 18. Does this mean that Matthew 19-28 relates specially to the tribulation period after the supposed secret rapture?

Notably, in the other New Testament books that do use the word “Church” in relation to the whole body of Christ, we find only one reference in Galatians, Philippians and James and only two verses in Matthew, Colossians and Hebrews. In the remaining books we have no mention of the Church after Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 15:9, Ephesians 5:32, 1 Timothy 5:16 and 3 John 1:10. Do all these particular passages reveal the actual demarcation line between the so-called Gospel age and the supposed Church-free Great Tribulation period?

The presence or absence of the actual word ‘church’ or ‘ecclesia’ from any New Testament book or series of chapters has therefore absolutely no specific end time significance as the Pretribbers would attempt to argue. The word ‘church’ is only one of many varying, yet similar, names and descriptions that express the one continuous called out people of God throughout time. Like elsewhere in Scripture, God’s blood-bought are variously described in Revelation as redeemed, Christians, brethren, elect, saints, servants, etc, etc.

If Pretribber are serious about the presence and absence of words then they once again demolish their own argument. They find antichrist saturated throughout the book of Revelation yet it isn’t mentioned once.

It is therefore extremely dangerous to divorce a common word like ‘church’ from the many other similar words used in the New Testament to describe the same elect of God. It is also not right to give it significance that the Holy Spirit doesn’t give it and which is completely separated from these other similar words. No major significance can therefore be applied to the word ‘church’ or any other word in the Bible when it is absent from a book, chapter or number chapters in a book, without looking for similar words that describe the same subject or object.

Using Pretrib logic a large portion of the entire New Testament doesn't apply to the church today.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
No. By church one usually means believers in Jesus, and more specifically those who came to believe in Him between the first coming and the Rapture! Saints in the millennium and the Trib are not the church any more than Noah was the church.

Says who? So, who are these sainst who possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Where do you get "the Rapture" mentioned in the Bible? Nowhere. That is another invented Pretrib term.

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You deny repeated NT truth here, and avoid the other evidence that exposes Pretrib. That is because there is nothing here about some called future rapture followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming. There is nothing!

Why do you avoid the $64,000,000 question? Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

Not true. I simply point out that you have zero clue what the spammed verses you offer are saying.

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
Not true. I simply point out that you have zero clue what the spammed verses you offer are saying.

Stop avoiding the obvious. Where does it say the Church is removed at or before Rev 4?

sovereigngrace · Dec 27, 2021

power1 said:
Not true. I simply point out that you have zero clue what the spammed verses you offer are saying.

Where in Scripture does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming?

power1 · Dec 27, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The word ‘Church’ (ekklesia) is also not found anywhere in the New Testament books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude, yet the Church is undoubtedly the recipient of these inspired gospels and epistles and is continually referred to under many varying descriptions throughout them. Like the whole book of Revelation, these books use varying descriptions of the Church of Jesus Christ such as “saints,” “elect,” “redeemed,” “brethren” and “servants.”

So what? It is mentioned in some books. It ceases to be mentioned in specific prophesy of the book of Revelation. That is because it deals with future and not just present.

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

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