Is the Death Penalty Biblical or not?

Gregory Thompson · Dec 17, 2021

Francis Drake said:
That post quoted Jesus, so given you obviously know better than he, I suggest you take up your argument with him.

I did, He doesn't think what you're saying He is.

Francis Drake · Dec 17, 2021

Michael Collum said:
I did, He doesn't think what you're saying He is.

Given that I did little more than post the scriptures, please tell me what those scriptures mean in the context of death.
Here's my post again.-

Death penalty "not Christlike"?
Do you not know that Christ is the author of the Law of Moses, and it is He who demanded the death penalty in the first place.
Jesus is not a cuddly toy, or a baby in a manger, He is Judge of all the earth!
And here's what Jesus thought about those who caused little ones to stumble, eg. those who are teaching sexual perversion to school children.
Lk17v2It is better for him if a millstone is hung around his neck and he is thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.

And here's more of Christ, the final judge, issuing the death sentence.
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 17, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Given that I did little more than post the scriptures, please tell me what those scriptures mean in the context of death.
Here's my post again.-

Death penalty "not Christlike"?
Do you not know that Christ is the author of the Law of Moses, and it is He who demanded the death penalty in the first place.
Jesus is not a cuddly toy, or a baby in a manger, He is Judge of all the earth!
And here's what Jesus thought about those who caused little ones to stumble, eg. those who are teaching sexual perversion to school children.
Lk17v2It is better for him if a millstone is hung around his neck and he is thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.

And here's more of Christ, the final judge, issuing the death sentence.
14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

There are punishments worse than death though.

Also, drawing a line to capital punishment from the second death is problematic unless you are a universalist. However, if that is the case, I would recommend posting about that in controversial theology.

Our conversation ended a month ago, and in resurrecting it, you illustrated a lack of ability to put to death your need to just be right about something.

Carol Walker · Dec 19, 2021

Michael Collum said:
There are punishments worse than death though.

Also, drawing a line to capital punishment from the second death is problematic unless you are a universalist. However, if that is the case, I would recommend posting about that in controversial theology.

Our conversation ended a month ago, and in resurrecting it, you illustrated a lack of ability to put to death your need to just be right about something.

Okay, come on. That was uncalled for. I have not seen any signs that Francis Drake just wants to be right. If that were true, you wouldn't be able to reason with him at all. And he hasn't called you names or been demeaning(so far as I've seen) so what you said was seriously uncalled for. Please reconsider before you put up something like that.

Frankly, I think Francis Drake has made a lot of good points. Maybe that's because I agree with him. But from my time reading you guys' posts, I haven't seen a lot of defeaters from your side, and he has been using a ton of Scriptures that appear to support what he says. Now, I'm not in any way discounting that you could have a very good position. I'm just wondering if you could defend it a little better than trying to throw insults like you just did.

Now, Francis Drake, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I did have a question about something you said. You mentioned how Jesus is not "a cuddly toy or a baby in a manger, He is Judge of the earth". What does that mean in your eyes, exactly? I'm asking because there is a portion of Scriptures(many of them, I think) where the Lord also declares that He is Love, and I wanted to know how you interpret that. How does that fit in with how you view the Justice of God?

If you like, I could talk about how I view it, but I'll wait until you guys answer before going ahead on that.

SkyWriting · Dec 20, 2021

Carol Walker said:
I'm actually having this conversation on another thread. But the person I'm mainly debating with is, unfortunately, an Atheist, and thus far we clash on every point. So, while I'm continuing that conversation with him, I'm also turning to my brothers and sisters in the faith. What do you guys think of this idea?

So far, I believe that the death penalty is actually a God-given commandment, and I can provide evidence of that should someone ask. As of now, I'm trying not to make an exceptionally long post, just one that introduces people to the subject of this thread quickly. I'd really like some feedback, of any and all kinds, but I will alert those who read this that since I've been arguing this point of view elsewhere, I will be arguing just as strongly here. I encourage all to do the same.

Yes, we used to stone criminals to death decided by mobs. But now we don't.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 20, 2021

Carol Walker said:
Okay, come on. That was uncalled for. I have not seen any signs that Francis Drake just wants to be right. If that were true, you wouldn't be able to reason with him at all. And he hasn't called you names or been demeaning(so far as I've seen) so what you said was seriously uncalled for. Please reconsider before you put up something like that.

Frankly, I think Francis Drake has made a lot of good points. Maybe that's because I agree with him. But from my time reading you guys' posts, I haven't seen a lot of defeaters from your side, and he has been using a ton of Scriptures that appear to support what he says. Now, I'm not in any way discounting that you could have a very good position. I'm just wondering if you could defend it a little better than trying to throw insults like you just did.

Now, Francis Drake, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I did have a question about something you said. You mentioned how Jesus is not "a cuddly toy or a baby in a manger, He is Judge of the earth". What does that mean in your eyes, exactly? I'm asking because there is a portion of Scriptures(many of them, I think) where the Lord also declares that He is Love, and I wanted to know how you interpret that. How does that fit in with how you view the Justice of God?

If you like, I could talk about how I view it, but I'll wait until you guys answer before going ahead on that.

You would learn the lesson of Proverbs 26:17, by applying it.

The discussion is over, it has been over, and that's satisfactory.

Francis Drake · Dec 20, 2021

Carol Walker said:
Okay, come on. That was uncalled for. I have not seen any signs that Francis Drake just wants to be right. If that were true, you wouldn't be able to reason with him at all. And he hasn't called you names or been demeaning(so far as I've seen) so what you said was seriously uncalled for. Please reconsider before you put up something like that.

Frankly, I think Francis Drake has made a lot of good points. Maybe that's because I agree with him. But from my time reading you guys' posts, I haven't seen a lot of defeaters from your side, and he has been using a ton of Scriptures that appear to support what he says. Now, I'm not in any way discounting that you could have a very good position. I'm just wondering if you could defend it a little better than trying to throw insults like you just did.

Now, Francis Drake, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I did have a question about something you said. You mentioned how Jesus is not "a cuddly toy or a baby in a manger, He is Judge of the earth". What does that mean in your eyes, exactly? I'm asking because there is a portion of Scriptures(many of them, I think) where the Lord also declares that He is Love, and I wanted to know how you interpret that. How does that fit in with how you view the Justice of God?

If you like, I could talk about how I view it, but I'll wait until you guys answer before going ahead on that.

Hi Carol, thank you for your gracious comment. I'll try to answer as best I can.

My stance is based on the fact that Jesus is the God of the OT, not just the NT, and also that God never changes. So to understand the Lord we need to step back and take a complete view of his character.

Jesus as creator God.
Jn1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Jesus as the OT Rock of Salvation.
1Cor10v1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
(ie. It is Jesus who led the Israelites out of Egypt and commanded them to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the land.)

Jesus as the NT Rock of Salvation
Matt16v18And I also say to you that you are Peter (Gk Petros, a small stone), and on this rock (Gk Petra, mountain, [Jesus now referring to himself, not Peter]) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
(It is an insult to Christ, and a distortion of scripture to call Peter, or any Pope, "the Rock on which the church is built".)

Psalm62v1.In God alone (Elohim)my soul finds rest; my salvation (My Yeshua) comes from Him.2He alone is my rock and my salvation (Hebrew 'my Yeshua'!); He is my defense; I shall not be greatly moved.

And Abraham addressing Jehovah/Yeshua as Judge of all the earth.-
Gen18v25.........Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”
26So the LORD (Yahweh) replied,.............

I've posted these verses as typical examples of the countless proofs that you cannot separate the NT perspective of Jesus/God, from the OT perspective of Jehovah/God. That's why Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you have seen the Father"

So as you say, God is love, but he is also a God of justice, and does not treat those who hate him the same as those who love him.

"God is love" is an accurate statement, but the usual version of that statement, as spouted by nearly everyone, that "God loves everybody" comes from Hinduism and not the bible.

Francis Drake · Dec 20, 2021

Michael Collum said:
You would learn the lesson of Proverbs 26:17, by applying it.

The discussion is over, it has been over, and that's satisfactory.

Wow Michael, when, and by whom, were you appointed to such an exalted place, high above everyone else?
You seem to have forgotten that this thread was actually started by @Carol Walker, who you have just insulted.
These are open discussions, and other than by removing yourself from this thread, they are not yours to close.

chad kincham · Dec 23, 2021

High Fidelity said:
What moral or biblical purpose does imposing death serve?

The following is a post flood command God gave to Noah, so it’s not part of the Law of Moses:

Gen 9:5 Also, I will certainly demand an accounting regarding bloodshed, from every animal and from every human being. I'll demand an accounting from every human being for the life of another human being.

Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds human blood, by a human his own blood is to be shed; because God made human beings in his own image.

Ted Kaz · Dec 26, 2021

It is not biblical and it is also an utterly barbaric practice. It actually is the hallmark of barbarity and whoever supports capital punishment is..

Any the how, no matter how you look at it, killing someone for whatever reason makes you equally a murderer.

I've read people here arguing that fining someone because he/she is a thief, then would make you a thief. That's obviously a misguided argument imho. Theft is the appropriation of someone else's property through DECEPTIVE means. If that wasn't the case, then charging a profit would also be theft, wouldn't it? There is no deception in charging a fine as far as I can see.

Murder, on the other hand, is the INTENTIONAL act of ending another person's life. Capital punishment certainly fits that.

zippy2006 · Dec 26, 2021

Ted Kaz said:
It is not biblical...

Have you ever read the Bible?

SkyWriting · Dec 26, 2021

Francis Drake said:
"God is love" is an accurate statement, but the usual version of that statement, as spouted by nearly everyone, that "God loves everybody" comes from Hinduism and not the bible.

Everyone is covered. Even those who don't know they are.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 8:39
Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ted Kaz · Dec 27, 2021

zippy2006 said:
Have you ever read the Bible?

I have and it says: Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17, and more importantly:
Matthew 22:35-40. That makes murder (aka capital punishment) unbiblical. Now, if by biblical you understand something rather simple such as "mentioned in the bible", then I guess I understand what your difficulty is. Cheers.

Francis Drake · Dec 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Everyone is covered. Even those who don't know they are.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

I think maybe you didn't read the words you just posted, otherwise you'd see that God's love was reserved for those who believe on him. The rest can go to hell!

Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

All have sinned, but not all are repentant.

Romans 8:39
Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, this verse refers only to those who are his blood bought sons.

You clearly like Romans, so perhaps you'd like to read what Paul says at the beginning of his letter.
Rom1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth by unrighteousness,
Did you notice that God directs "wrath", and not "love" at those who reject what the truth?

SkyWriting · Dec 27, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I think maybe you didn't read the words you just posted, otherwise you'd see that God's love was reserved for those who believe on him. The rest can go to hell!

God does not reserve his love from anyone.
But people are known to reject God.

Just like if you don't accept love from your grandma, she doesn't send you to hell
or ever wish that for you. So your conclusion is in error.

Francis Drake · Dec 28, 2021

SkyWriting said:
God does not reserve his love from anyone.
But people are known to reject God.

Just like if you don't accept love from your grandma, she doesn't send you to hell
or ever wish that for you. So your conclusion is in error.

It's not in error but perfectly in line with scripture.
It is a true statement that God is love. But if God loved the sons of Satan like he does his own sons, he would not be a good Father.
That is illustrated by Paul here.
Rom1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth by unrighteousness,
Did you notice that God directs "wrath", and not "love" at those who reject what the truth?

SkyWriting · Dec 28, 2021

Francis Drake said:
It's not in error but perfectly in line with scripture.
It is a true statement that God is love. But if God loved the sons of Satan like he does his own sons, he would not be a good Father.
That is illustrated by Paul here.
Rom1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth by unrighteousness,
Did you notice that God directs "wrath", and not "love" at those who reject what the truth?

I noticed that you had to change "is revealed" to "directs" to fit an altered idea.
And then the rest of your idea about a "good father" is fiction.

Hell is not something God created. Hell is the natural result from rejecting God.
It's something that happens. It's not a destination. It's an active experience.
There is a shadow experience for those living who reject God.
It's a lot like Hell except it has distractions like movies and beer.

Francis Drake · Dec 28, 2021

SkyWriting said:
I noticed that you had to change "is revealed" to "directs" to fit an altered idea.

Wow, that's an astonishing thought, ..........which makes absolutely no difference to the point I was making!

And then the rest of your idea about a "good father" is fiction.

If you think that, then you don't understand what Jesus said about the Fatherhood of God, or the fatherhood of the devil.

Hell is not something God created. Hell is the natural result from rejecting God.
It's something that happens. It's not a destination. It's an active experience.
There is a shadow experience for those living who reject God.
It's a lot like Hell except it has distractions like movies and beer.

If you read carefully, I made no comment regarding the origins of Hell (or Hades). Nevertheless to claim that hell is not a destination is a bit foolish, because, in contrast to Lazarus, Hell was the certain destination of the rich man.

And however you argue your point, those who reject God will receive none of His love, and are destined for death.
Rev20v14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

SkyWriting · Dec 28, 2021

Francis Drake said:
And however you argue your point, those who reject God will receive none of His love, and are destined for death.
Rev20v14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

But God loves them no less, and loved us while we were still sinners.
If people choose to ignore being loved, we can't help that.

Also hell and death are thrown into the lake of Fire, so those will be eliminated as well.

Francis Drake · Dec 29, 2021

SkyWriting said:
But God loves them no less, and loved us while we were still sinners.
If people choose to ignore being loved, we can't help that.

Your refusal to look at all sides of His character, leads you to the distorted view that God has no standards.
God is love, and always will be love, yet this is also part of his character.-
Psalm5v4For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
6You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
And-
Prov6v16These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Is the Death Penalty Biblical or not?

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