New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life · Dec 27, 2021

NEW JERUSALEM vs BABYLON THE GREAT
AND THE TEMPLE THE MAN OF SIN WILL APPEAR IN

It's important that we understand the following:

* We are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).

* We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Revelation 21
9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Remember, we are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9: 12, 24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Revelation 11
1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

* New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2, 10 & Revelation 22:19).

* Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8.

The problem therefore with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

1. Holy places made with (human hands).
2. The thesis-antithesis comparison the Revelation makes between New Jerusalem and the harlot.

1. HOLY PLACES MADE WITH (HUMAN) HANDS

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Acts 7
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands, as the prophet says.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The pages below make the (very important) fact you are about to read abundantly clear. The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:

1. Naos
Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
2. Hieron
Strong's #2411 - ἱερόν - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

In the New Testament, the Greek words naos and hieron are both used in reference to the temple (both mean "temple"), but the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies.

After the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven:

(See: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22).

*StrongsGreek*]
02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'
neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary of the Temple itself (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Compare 2411.

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

(1) Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).

(2) Any heathen temple or shrine.

(3) Metaphor for the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

These facts teach us that there is a BIG problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem, because all the other verses in the New Testament that follow after the verses in the gospels talking about the tearing of the veil (and that use the Greek word naos for "temple") are talking about the temple in heaven or the church as the temple.

The Greek word naos used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 implies that it's symbolic language being used, and it's quite possibly a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7, where the temple being 'measured' is the same as telling us that John is being told to count the sheep. It's the same symbolism seen where New Jerusalem is measured:

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

The same goes for the naos (temple) that the man of sin will seat himself up in: The word naos used for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians implies that it's the church being spoken of (if it was speaking of a temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word hieron would have been used, since the word hieron continues to be used beyond the gospels in all references to the physical temple in Jerusalem).

2. THE THESIS-ANTITHESIS COMPARISON REVELATION MAKES
BETWEEN NEW JERUSALEM AND THE HARLOT

* New Jerusalem is called the bride and the wife of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9) and a "city" of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

* Babylon the Great is also a "city" but is called a harlot which is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

Compare the following:

New Jerusalem:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 21:9; Revelation 17:1).

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet. And she was gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

New Jerusalem:
"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

Now consider the fact that Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect, and compare the following:

Revelation 17
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Revelation 18
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.

Biblical types and their counterparts, a.k.a antitypes:

Isaiah 1
21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

Jerusalem:
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Revelation 7
14b And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 2
21 And I gave her (Jezebel) time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
22 Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

HOW OLD IS "BABYLON THE GREAT"?

Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

* Added here days later so I can sign off from this thread:

In the religious sense of the use of the words (i.e whenever the words are used in reference to the Tabernacle of God), naos refers to what is considered holy (consecrated, i.e set apart unto God), but hieron refers to the profane (what is not considered holy). The outer courts and precincts of the temple in Jerusalem (the buildings and the structure) were not considered holy. Only the inner court (or “holy place”) and the most holy place (or “holy of holies”) were considered holy, always denoted by the word naos.

Due to the fact that:

(1) Naos is never again used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil

the above makes it obvious that:

(2) Before the verses talking about the tearing of the veil, hieron is talking about the temple buildings.

--------------------------------------------------------

Using the two Greek words in our modern Christian context, the church building = the hieron (it’s just a building), but the congregation of the saints who together make up the actual church (the actual sanctuary) = the naos. Take the saints who congregated in the building (the hieron) and let them congregate somewhere else (maybe they got a new church building somewhere), and the church building (hieron) that is still standing is still the hieron: The pulpit is still there, and the platform that the pulpit stands on is still there too, but the naos has left the premises.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

eleos1954 · Dec 27, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
NEW JERUSALEM vs BABYLON THE GREAT
AND THE TEMPLE THE MAN OF SIN WILL APPEAR IN

It's important that we understand the following:

* We are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).

* We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Revelation 21
9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Remember, we are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9: 12, 24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

* New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2, 10 & Revelation 22:19).

* Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8.

The problem therefore with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

1. Holy places made with (human hands).
2. The thesis-antithesis comparison the Revelation makes between New Jerusalem and the harlot.

1. HOLY PLACES MADE WITH (HUMAN) HANDS

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Acts 7
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands, as the prophet says.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The pages below make the (very important) fact you are about to read abundantly clear. The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:

1. Naos
Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
2. Hieron
Strong's #2411 - ἱερόν - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

In the New Testament, the Greek words naos and hieron are both used in reference to the temple (both mean "temple"), but the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies.

After the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven:

(See: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22).

*StrongsGreek*]
02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'
neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary of the Temple itself (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Compare 2411.

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

(1) Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).

(2) Any heathen temple or shrine.

(3) Metaphor for the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

These facts teach us that there is a BIG problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem, because all the other verses in the New Testament that follow the verses in the gospels talking about the tearing of the veil (and that use the Greek word naos for "temple") are talking about the temple in heaven or the church as the temple.

The Greek word naos used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 implies that it's symbolic language being used, and it's quite possibly a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7, where the temple being 'measured' is the same as telling us that John is being told to count the sheep. It's the same symbolism seen where New Jerusalem is measured:

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

The same goes for the naos (temple) that the man of sin will seat himself up in: The word naos used for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians implies that it's the church being spoken of (if it was speaking of a temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word hieron would have been used, since the word hieron continues to be used beyond the gospels in all references to the physical temple in Jerusalem).

2. THE THESIS-ANTITHESIS COMPARISON REVELATION MAKES
BETWEEN NEW JERUSALEM AND THE HARLOT

* New Jerusalem is called the bride and the wife of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9) and a "city" of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

* Babylon the Great is also a "city" but is called a harlot which is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

Compare the following:

New Jerusalem:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 21:9; Revelation 17:1).

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet. And she was gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

New Jerusalem:
"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

Now consider the fact that Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect, and compare the following:

Revelation 17
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Revelation 18
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.

Biblical types and their counterparts, a.k.a antitypes:

Isaiah 1
21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

Jerusalem:
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Revelation 7
14b And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

HOW OLD IS "BABYLON THE GREAT"?

Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

Babylon .... from Babel (confusion) who is behind it all? satan.

Whether the temple of our body/minds or physical temples satan has bee invading and distorting them since the fall of mankind ... so yeah it has been going on since the fall ... satan creating confusion within the various temples.

RandyPNW · Dec 27, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

I wish you had shortened up your post because I find it to be an interesting subject. Some of what you mentioned I think we may be agreed on. I'm only going to deal with this last part, because we obviously disagree on that.

Babylon the Great is not an exact counterpart to the New Jerusalem, but we're certainly given a comparison between the two. Babylon here is said to be a "mystery," indicating that it is not the literal ancient city of Babylon, but rather, something that Daniel saw emerging out of the 4th pagan kingdom in Dan 7.

Daniel saw 10 horns, 3 of which were uprooted by the Little Horn, aka the Antichrist. That means that this 4th Beast consists of the Antichrist, 10 nations, and 7 kings.

So when John portrayed this Mystery Babylon as a city riding on a 7-headed Beast, he was referring to Rome in the endtimes, when this "4th Kingdom" would evolve into the Antichrist's reign over 7 kings.

This endtimes empire will be what the World loves. But the New Jerusalem is from above, from God. Only those who love God will reside there. What is pagan and of the earth will be burned by fire. Not only will the city of Rome burn, but a good chunk of Europe will burn as well, in the coming world war.

grafted branch · Dec 27, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
NEW JERUSALEM vs BABYLON THE GREAT
AND THE TEMPLE THE MAN OF SIN WILL APPEAR IN

It's important that we understand the following:

* We are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).

* We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Revelation 21
9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Remember, we are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9: 12, 24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

* New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2, 10 & Revelation 22:19).

* Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8.

The problem therefore with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

1. Holy places made with (human hands).
2. The thesis-antithesis comparison the Revelation makes between New Jerusalem and the harlot.

1. HOLY PLACES MADE WITH (HUMAN) HANDS

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Acts 7
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands, as the prophet says.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The pages below make the (very important) fact you are about to read abundantly clear. The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:

1. Naos
Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
2. Hieron
Strong's #2411 - ἱερόν - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

In the New Testament, the Greek words naos and hieron are both used in reference to the temple (both mean "temple"), but the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies.

After the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven:

(See: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22).

*StrongsGreek*]
02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'
neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary of the Temple itself (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Compare 2411.

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

(1) Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).

(2) Any heathen temple or shrine.

(3) Metaphor for the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

These facts teach us that there is a BIG problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem, because all the other verses in the New Testament that follow the verses in the gospels talking about the tearing of the veil (and that use the Greek word naos for "temple") are talking about the temple in heaven or the church as the temple.

The Greek word naos used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 implies that it's symbolic language being used, and it's quite possibly a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7, where the temple being 'measured' is the same as telling us that John is being told to count the sheep. It's the same symbolism seen where New Jerusalem is measured:

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

The same goes for the naos (temple) that the man of sin will seat himself up in: The word naos used for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians implies that it's the church being spoken of (if it was speaking of a temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word hieron would have been used, since the word hieron continues to be used beyond the gospels in all references to the physical temple in Jerusalem).

2. THE THESIS-ANTITHESIS COMPARISON REVELATION MAKES
BETWEEN NEW JERUSALEM AND THE HARLOT

* New Jerusalem is called the bride and the wife of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9) and a "city" of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

* Babylon the Great is also a "city" but is called a harlot which is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

Compare the following:

New Jerusalem:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 21:9; Revelation 17:1).

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet. And she was gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

New Jerusalem:
"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

Now consider the fact that Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect, and compare the following:

Revelation 17
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Revelation 18
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.

Biblical types and their counterparts, a.k.a antitypes:

Isaiah 1
21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

Jerusalem:
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Revelation 7
14b And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

HOW OLD IS "BABYLON THE GREAT"?

Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

Claninja brought up the point on another thread about Revelation 11:1-2 not making sense unless the word naos was used, regardless of whether the temple is meant physically or not.

Do you see a way someone could make the distinction between the two parts of the temple, after the veil was torn, without using the word naos? What word or words could someone use other than naos?

Zao is life · Dec 27, 2021

See Post # 1 in this thread.

If the Greek word naos used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 means that the Tabernacle of God which the man of sin/son of perdition will seat himself up in is the church, and the falling away, the apostasy which accompanies the man of sin and lawless one's appearance is the falling away from faith in the truth on the part of those who name the name of Christ, then it means that the separation between the faithful church (represented by New Jerusalem), and the harlot (represented by Babylon the Great), is going to become obvious to the faithful, but the harlot Christians will not see it this way.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple (naos) of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Douggg · Dec 27, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
View attachment 310068 View attachment 310069 View attachment 310070
See Post # 1 in this thread.

If the Greek word naos used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 means that the Tabernacle of God which the man of sin/son of perdition will seat himself up in is the church, and the falling away, the apostasy which accompanies the man of sin and lawless one's appearance is the falling away from faith in the truth on the part of those who name the name of Christ, then it means that the separation between the faithful church (represented by New Jerusalem), and the harlot (represented by Babylon the Great), is going to become obvious to the faithful, but the harlot Christians will not see it this way.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple (naos) of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Your rationale disregards that John was given a reed to measure the temple. Which means the temple will be a physical temple. Your posts are very confusing, btw.

Revelation 11;1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Douggg · Dec 27, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
NEW JERUSALEM vs BABYLON THE GREAT
AND THE TEMPLE THE MAN OF SIN WILL APPEAR IN

It's important that we understand the following:

* We are told that we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places (compare Ephesians 1:20 with Ephesians 2:6).

* We are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Galatians 4
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

Revelation 21
9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

Remember, we are told Christ entered into the heavenly temple on our behalf (Hebrews 8:1-2; Hebrews 9: 12, 24), and we are told He IS the temple (Revelation 21:22), and we are told Christ is in us and we are in Him (John 14:20).

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

* New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2, 10 & Revelation 22:19).

* Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8.

The problem therefore with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jerusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

1. Holy places made with (human hands).
2. The thesis-antithesis comparison the Revelation makes between New Jerusalem and the harlot.

1. HOLY PLACES MADE WITH (HUMAN) HANDS

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered into the Holy of Holies made with (human) hands, which are the figures of the true, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.

Acts 7
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples (Greek: naos) made with hands, as the prophet says.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples (Greek naos) made with hands.

The pages below make the (very important) fact you are about to read abundantly clear. The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:

1. Naos
Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org
2. Hieron
Strong's #2411 - ἱερόν - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

In the New Testament, the Greek words naos and hieron are both used in reference to the temple (both mean "temple"), but the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies.

After the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to:-

i. The bodies of believers as a temple; and
ii. The church as the temple; and
iii. the temple in heaven:

(See: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15 & Revelation 14:17; Revelation 15:5-6 & Revelation 15:8; Revelation 16:1 & Revelation 16:17; Revelation 21:22).

*StrongsGreek*]
02411
ἱερόν hierón, hee-er-on'
neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts, whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary of the Temple itself (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[*StrongsGreek*]
03485
NAO/S ναός naós nah-os' from a primary ναίω naíō, (to dwell);
a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Compare 2411.

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

(1) Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).

(2) Any heathen temple or shrine.

(3) Metaphor for the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

These facts teach us that there is a BIG problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem, because all the other verses in the New Testament that follow the verses in the gospels talking about the tearing of the veil (and that use the Greek word naos for "temple") are talking about the temple in heaven or the church as the temple.

The Greek word naos used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 implies that it's symbolic language being used, and it's quite possibly a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7, where the temple being 'measured' is the same as telling us that John is being told to count the sheep. It's the same symbolism seen where New Jerusalem is measured:

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.

17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

1 And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple (Greek: naos) of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months.

The same goes for the naos (temple) that the man of sin will seat himself up in: The word naos used for "temple" in 2 Thessalonians implies that it's the church being spoken of (if it was speaking of a temple in Jerusalem, the Greek word hieron would have been used, since the word hieron continues to be used beyond the gospels in all references to the physical temple in Jerusalem).

2. THE THESIS-ANTITHESIS COMPARISON REVELATION MAKES
BETWEEN NEW JERUSALEM AND THE HARLOT

* New Jerusalem is called the bride and the wife of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9) and a "city" of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

* Babylon the Great is also a "city" but is called a harlot which is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

Compare the following:

New Jerusalem:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 21:9; Revelation 17:1).

Babylon the Great/the Harlot:
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet. And she was gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication."

New Jerusalem:
"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 17:4 & Revelation 21:27).

Now consider the fact that Matthew 23:29-38 shows us that God holds those who are supposed to be His elect equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and saints when they shed the blood of the innocent among His elect, and compare the following:

Revelation 17
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with a great marveling.

Revelation 18
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth.

Biblical types and their counterparts, a.k.a antitypes:

Isaiah 1
21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

Jerusalem:
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate." (Matthew 23:38).

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 3
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see.

Revelation 7
14b And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

HOW OLD IS "BABYLON THE GREAT"?

Revelation 17 should make it abundantly clear to the reader that Babylon the Great has existed for as long as the seven-headed beast has existed (i.e, since long before John received the Revelation, and long before the Messiah came into the world). Therefore based on all the above, she seems to represent that part of the Old Testament + New Testament Church (a.k.a Israel), that is a harlot, and she is the antithesis of that part of the Old Testament + New Testament church that is the faithful bride of Christ. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem.

What are you trying to prove?

The identity of Babylon the Great ?

____________________________________________

Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels overshadowing the earth.

____________________________________________

The temple that the Antichrist will sit in, in 2Thessalonians2:4, will be a rebuilt temple in the end times, by the Jews, on the current temple mount. It will be the temple that John was told to measure with the reed in Revelation 11:1.

Zao is life · Dec 27, 2021

RandyPNW said:
I wish you had shortened up your post because I find it to be an interesting subject. Some of what you mentioned I think we may be agreed on.

Yes I was aware that my post was very long, and I was aware that it was going to be very long, because the three subjects I mentioned are interwoven, and in order to show why they are interwoven and provide biblical support for what I wrote, I needed to quote scripture and also compare scripture with scripture, but because there are actually three topics "woven into one post", I could not shorten it without defeating my purpose.

So even though I would not shorten my post if I had to post it again, your protest is valid.

RandyPNW said:
I'm only going to deal with this last part, because we obviously disagree on that.

Babylon the Great is not an exact counterpart to the New Jerusalem, but we're certainly given a comparison between the two. Babylon here is said to be a "mystery," indicating that it is not the literal ancient city of Babylon, but rather, something that Daniel saw emerging out of the 4th pagan kingdom in Dan 7.

Daniel saw 10 horns, 3 of which were uprooted by the Little Horn, aka the Antichrist. That means that this 4th Beast consists of the Antichrist, 10 nations, and 7 kings.

In Revelation 17 that little horn is the beast that the 10 horns hand over their power & authority to, i.e the beast ascending from the abyss, which is also called the "8th" king who is one of the seven.

In Revelation 13 we see the same ten kings, the crowns have shifted from the dragon's seven heads to the 10 horns, showing that the dragon has given this ten-horned beast his seat, power and great authority (see Revelation 12:3 and Revelation 13:1).

We also see another beast in Revelation 13, and it is exercising all the power and authority of the ten-horned beast (which suggests to me that this beast from the earth, which Revelation 19:20 calls the false prophet, is the same little horn which Revelation 17 shows the ten kings giving their power & authority to).

To me the above does not suggest that it's referring to Babylon the Great who's riding the beast (which is what the rest of your post below seems to be saying, if I'm correct?). Babylon the Great is destroyed by those ten kings according to Revelation 17 and 18.

RandyPNW said:
So when John portrayed this Mystery Babylon as a city riding on a 7-headed Beast, he was referring to Rome in the endtimes, when this "4th Kingdom" would evolve into the Antichrist's reign over 7 kings.

This endtimes empire will be what the World loves. But the New Jerusalem is from above, from God. Only those who love God will reside there. What is pagan and of the earth will be burned by fire. Not only will the city of Rome burn, but a good chunk of Europe will burn as well, in the coming world war.

Babylon the Great will be destroyed by the beast and burned with fire, according to Revelation 17:16 (also Revelation 18:17 says Babylon the Great, the harlot, will be destroyed in one hour, and Revelation 17:12 tells us that the ten kings have authority for one hour with the beast ascended from the abyss, to whom they hand over all their power & authority).

But the ten-horned beast will also be destroyed by fire: Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of Christ coming on a white horse with His armies on white horses, when He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and Revelation 17:14 says of the ten kings that they "will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones."

We know that the world will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10). We also know that the beast and its false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20).

But we are also definitely told that the harlot will be destroyed by the same beast - the same ten kings who give their power and authority to the beast ascended from the abyss (i.e Daniel's "little horn").

Therefore the harlot and the beast are not the same entity. The harlot prostitutes herself with the kings of the earth, becoming rich through her trade with the world. She rides the beast that carries her, until she is destroyed by fire in one hour by the ten kings who hand over their power and authority to the little horn.

Also, the harlot has existed since before John received the Revelation and before Christ came into the world.

Spiritually, biblically, only the part of God's elect that plays the harlot with the nations can be considered a harlot.

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.

Two mysteries: The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness which accompanies the apostasy and the appearance of the man of sin in the Tabernacle of God); and the mystery of Babylon the Great who prostitutes herself with the beast, i.e the nations and their rulers and merchants, and becomes filled with filth and doctrines of devils.

Both are in opposition to true Godliness.

RandyPNW · Dec 28, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So even though I would not shorten my post if I had to post it again, your protest is valid.

I wasn't protesting as much as apologizing for not covering all of your points more thoroughly. And it's a suggestion if only to obtain more interest from those who might not spend the time. I like the subject, and understand you have to cover it properly.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
In Revelation 17 that little horn is the beast that the 10 horns hand over their power & authority to, i.e the beast ascending from the abyss, which is also called the "8th" king who is one of the seven.

In Revelation 13 we see the same ten kings, the crowns have shifted from the dragon's seven heads to the 10 horns, showing that the dragon has given this ten-horned beast his seat, power and great authority (see Revelation 12:3 and Revelation 13:1).

We also see another beast in Revelation 13, and it is exercising all the power and authority of the ten-horned beast (which suggests to me that this beast from the earth, which Revelation 19:20 calls the false prophet, is the same little horn which Revelation 17 shows the ten kings giving their power & authority to).

Yes, these 2 beasts represent the Antichristian Empire and a regal False Prophet. As I said, the Antichristian Empire consists of Antichrist assuming control over 10 nations and 7 kings, whereas the False Prophet seems to control 2 nations or powers. But I don't see the Little Horn in Rev 17 receiving power and authority from the False Prophet?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
To me the above does not suggest that it's referring to Babylon the Great who's riding the beast (which is what the rest of your post below seems to be saying, if I'm correct?). Babylon the Great is destroyed by those ten kings according to Revelation 17 and 18.

I do see the Harlot as being the city of Rome, who rides upon the Beast Empire of Antichrist, including 10 nations and 7 kings. And yes, the city of Rome is destroyed by the Antichristian Empire.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Babylon the Great will be destroyed by the beast and burned with fire, according to Revelation 17:16 (also Revelation 18:17 says Babylon the Great, the harlot, will be destroyed in one hour, and Revelation 17:12 tells us that the ten kings have authority for one hour with the beast ascended from the abyss, to whom they hand over all their power & authority).

"One hour" suggests a short period of time, which may refer either to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign or to a shorter period of time after Rome is destroyed.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
But the ten-horned beast will also be destroyed by fire: Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of Christ coming on a white horse with His armies on white horses, when He comes as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and Revelation 17:14 says of the ten kings that they "will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones."

Christ's Coming is not to do actual warfare, but strictly to bring God's word to bear upon the world in which Antichrist reigns. God simply says, "you're done," and Antichrist is done, together with his armies. Fire is simply the tool God uses to destroy the world's wealth and power, and also an indication that this kingdom will be vaporized, or otherwise removed from the planet.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
We know that the world will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10). We also know that the beast and its false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20).

Yes, in fact "eternal fire," or the "lake of fire," indicates that eternal spirits of men will be removed completely from the earth so that the glory of the Lord will alone be present in the new earth. This has no thought of eternal torture, but only of the torment of having been removed from paradise and from the Lord's blessings.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
But we are also definitely told that the harlot will be destroyed by the same beast - the same ten kings who give their power and authority to the beast ascended from the abyss (i.e Daniel's "little horn").

Therefore the harlot and the beast are not the same entity.

I believe the Beast Empire actually began with ancient Rome. But in the last days, the Antichristian Empire will, I think, turn against the city of Rome, while retaining its ancient European center of power. The city and the empire it represents are not the same thing. But I do think Rome is Mystery Babylon, and the Beast is the European confederation under Antichrist. They initially ride together, but ultimately turn against one another.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The harlot prostitutes herself with the kings of the earth, becoming rich through her trade with the world. She rides the beast that carries her, until she is destroyed by fire in one hour by the ten kings who hand over their power and authority to the little horn.

Also, the harlot has existed since before John received the Revelation and before Christ came into the world.

I believe the Harlot is an endtimes phenomenon, and only had roots in ancient Rome, when it visited persecution upon the NT prophets and apostles. It is a "harlot" because in history the Roman Empire was Christianized, but in these last days has returned to paganism, a "harlot."

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Spiritually, biblically, only the part of God's elect that plays the harlot with the nations can be considered a harlot.

I see Europe today as a spiritual harlot, because it has turned away from Christianity back to paganism. It has become vile.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.

Two mysteries: The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness which accompanies the apostasy and the appearance of the man of sin in the Tabernacle of God); and the mystery of Babylon the Great who prostitutes herself with the beast, i.e the nations and their rulers and merchants, and becomes filled with filth and doctrines of devils.

Both are in opposition to true Godliness.

The "mystery," to me, is the equation between John's Harlot and Daniel's Beast in Dan 7. Daniel referred to the 4th Beast, which I think was the Roman Empire. And this series of 4 kings began with the Kingdom of Babylon. So it is fitting for John to present a latter day mystery of Rome in the form of "Mystery Babylon."

He could not use the "Roman" label because he was imprisoned by the Romans at the time of this vision. Calling it out by name would have gotten him killed. God apparently wanted John to set an example of wisdom for Christians who lived under that pagan empire.

Not only did John suggest Mystery Babylon was Rome, but he identified it as the city that ruled that part of the world. Christians would've seen that as Rome quite literally, whereas the Romans would see this as apocalyptic nonsense.

Finally, John gave two riddles that made it clear he was hiding the identity of the Harlot. He indicated that if we make the 7 kings, symbolically, into 7 mountains we could see it as the 7-hilled city of Rome.

And he added a 2nd riddle by making the 7 kings into a symbolic series of 7 kingdoms in history, the 6th of which would be identified as the Roman Empire.
The 7th in the series would be the Antichristian Empire.

And Dan 7 indicated that the 4th Beast, the Roman Empire, would be the final empire in history in this series leading up to the Little Horn/Antichrist. The 7th Kingdom, therefore, has to be a restored Roman Empire, with Antichrist being the 8th, once he has taken control of it.

It's all speculative, but thanks for your thoughts. We'll see where God takes us on this in the near future.

Zao is life · Dec 28, 2021

RandyPNW said:
IBut I don't see the Little Horn in Rev 17 receiving power and authority from the False Prophet?

Well we're in basic agreement about the beast and the harlot.

Admittedly there isn't anything in Revelation 17 itself to force the inclusion of (that part of ) the Old Testament church a.k.a Israel that was a harlot with (that part of) the New Testament church that was/is a harlot. @RandyPNW edited in: I've assumed that she's the same age as the seven-headed beast that carries her (because of her name), but there isn't anything in Revelation 17 to force that conclusion.

And she is a city, and it could be Rome, but it also could be an invisible city, in the same way the New Jerusalem is populated by the faithful saints from all over the world and is not a physical city (I.M.O).

I never said the little horn receives power from the false prophet. I obviously never made myself clear, my apologies.

When Revelation 17 says the 10 kings will receive power & authority with the beast, the Greek word meta in that verse literally means the same hour, as the Young's Literal Translation has it:

Revelation 17 (Young's Literal Translation)
12 `And the ten horns that thou sawest, are ten kings, who a kingdom did not yet receive, but authority as kings the same hour do receive with the beast.

* Revelation 13 tells us that the 10 kings will receive from Satan his seat, power and great authority. (and the crowns have shifted to the 10 horns in Revelation 13:1, after having been on the dragon's heads in Revelation 12:3).

* These 10 kings who are seen receiving their power from Satan in Revelation 13:2, 4 are seen handing their power & authority over to the little horn in Revelation 17:13...

.. but we also see the beast ascending from the earth (a.k.a the false prophet) exercising all the authority of the first beast before it (which I think is like Joseph exercising all the authority of Pharaoh, or like Jesus exercising all the authority of God the Father).

Is this false prophet exercising all the authority of the ten kings, or of the beast ascended from the abyss (a.k.a Daniel's little horn)? I think it's the ten kings whose authority the false prophet is exercising, sticking to what Revelation 13 is saying.

So if

* The first beast mentioned in Revelation 13 is the ten kings mentioned in Revelation 17 who are seen handing their power and authority over to another beast (the one ascended from the abyss a.k.a Daniel's little horn); and
* Revelation 13 is also mentioning two beasts, the second of which is exercising all the authority and power of the ten kings...

.. then it suggests (maybe) that the beast ascending from the earth in Revelation 13 and the beast ascending from the abyss in Revelation 17 = one and the same beast, i.e Daniel's little horn, a.ka the false prophet.

So complicated in its simplicity (but it's also just my speculation).

Douggg · Dec 28, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
* The first beast mentioned in Revelation 13 is the ten kings mentioned in Revelation 17 who are seen handing their power and authority over to another beast (the one ascended from the abyss a.k.a Daniel's little horn); and
* Revelation 13 is also mentioning two beasts, the second of which is exercising all the authority and power of the ten kings...

No, the ten kings are the ten horns on the beast.

The individual person, who is subsequently, called the beast for the remainder of Revelation, is the one mortally wounded by healed head.

Where are the ten horns on the beast? They are on that one mortally wounded but healed head.

Douggg · Dec 28, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
.. then it suggests (maybe) that the beast ascending from the earth in Revelation 13 and the beast ascending from the abyss in Revelation 17 = one and the same beast, i.e Daniel's little horn, a.ka the false prophet.

The second beast comes out of Israel, represented by the earth. The sea on the other hand represents the nations.

The second beast is the false prophet, who does miracles such as calling fire down from heaven, emulating what Elijah did, and will likely claim to be Elijah.

Why Elijah? Because the Jews are expecting Elijah to come at the time of the messianic age.

AND the Jews believe the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet.

little horn leader of the EU > the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog > perceived to be the messiah instead of Jesus, i.e. the Antichrist (anointed the King of Israel, by the false Elijah prophet) > three years later reveals himself to be the man of sin > is killed and brought back to life as the beast, specifically the mortally wounded/healed head in Revelation 13, made dictator of the EU by the ten kings and the world.

Zao is life · Dec 28, 2021

Douggg said:
The second beast comes out of Israel, represented by the earth. The sea on the other hand represents the nations.

The second beast is the false prophet, who does miracles such as calling fire down from heaven, emulating what Elijah did, and will likely claim to be Elijah.

Why Elijah? Because the Jews are expecting Elijah to come at the time of the messianic age.

AND the Jews believe the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet.

little horn leader of the EU > the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog > perceived to be the messiah instead of Jesus, i.e. the Antichrist (anointed the King of Israel, by the false Elijah prophet) > three years later reveals himself to be the man of sin > is killed and brought back to life as the beast, specifically the mortally wounded/healed head in Revelation 13, made dictator of the EU by the ten kings and the world.

Thanks for your post.

I don't believe Gog-Magog is said either in Ezekiel or Revelation to come before the restoration mentioned in Ezekiel, or the thousand years mentioned in Revelation (in Ezekiel Gog comes after the restoration spoken of in Ezekiel, and he comes against people who had been gathered back from the nations and were in a state of peace, rest and prosperity living in un-walled villages).

No one has ever been able to convince me that Gog-Magog is the beast that we will see at the end of this Age, and you won't convince me.

Though I'm always glad when someone posts a reply for others to see (because all points of view are important), and although the beast from the earth and Israel is a possibility of the identity of the beast from the earth which I have not entirely ruled out, the rest of what you said I.M.H.O is your own speculation about possibilities regarding specifics and specific identities which you believe you have all worked out because of this and that (this and that which you also believe you have all worked out),

but I don't agree with any identification of any of the ten kings or of the beast from the earth OR of the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2) or any specifics about how things are going to be played out before we know exactly who they are, and we will probably only know exactly who they are when he/they are already here and are already beheading those who refuse to worship the beast.

Douggg · Dec 28, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
No one has ever been able to convince me that Gog-Magog is the beast that we will see at the end of this Age, and you won't convince me.

I am not say that Gog/Magog is the beast, nor that Gog is the beast.

And I am not saying that I can convince anyone of the timeline, but in Ezekiel 39 is the makings of the infallible "framework" of end time events.

We can divide it up in three sections. Ezekiel 39:1-16 , Ezekiel 39:17-20, Ezekiel 39:21-29 (which makes the framework infallible).

Ezekiel 39:1-16 is the Gog/Magog event. A massive grave site will be established in the land of Israel.

The seven years that follow the destruction of Gog's army are the same years of Daniel 9:27.

At the end of those seven years is ....

Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon event, Jesus's judgement on the armies under leadership of the beast that have gave to make war on Jesus. Revelation 19:17-18 make the same description as Ezekiel 39:17-20.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth (in the near future), and is recounting all that has taken place regarding Israel since they rejected him 2000 years ago.

Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

Here is a chart I made of that frame work of events. I made the timeline diagonal instead of horizontal because of the downhill slide of events until Jesus's return.

I also have on it some oval designations representing the sequence of the arch villain of the end times.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 28, 2021

Douggg said:
Your rationale disregards that John was given a reed to measure the temple. Which means the temple will be a physical temple.

No, it does not have to mean that. Let's put your logic to the test.

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Using the same kind of logic you're using to interpret Revelation 11, we would conclude that Jesus was literally standing in the midst of seven literal, physical candlesticks and He held seven literal stars in His right hand and had a literal, physical sharp two-edged sword coming out of His mouth. Is that how you intepret this passage even though Revelation 1:20 tells us that the seven candlesticks are "the seven churches" (of the ancient province of Asia) and the seven stars are "the angels of the seven churches"? I doubt it.

So, your assumption that the "reed like unto a rod" that John was told to use to "measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein" is meant to be understood as a physical reed to measure a physical temple makes as much sense as assuming that Jesus was standing in the midst of seven physical candlesticks while literally holding seven stars in His right hand.

Also, do you actually believe that John was supposed to somehow literally use a reed to measure "them that worship" in the temple? How exactly was he supposed to do that in a literal sense? Was he supposed to measure the height of each person in the temple or something?

Your posts are very confusing, btw.

Kind of like your charts then, I guess.

Douggg · Dec 28, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, your assumption that the "reed like unto a rod" that John was told to use to "measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein" is meant to be understood as a physical reed to measure a physical temple makes as much sense as assuming that Jesus was standing in the midst of seven physical candlesticks while literally holding seven stars in His right hand.

No, it is not the same type of logic.

That John was told to measure the temple - seems to be an indicator that temple in Revelation 11:1 will be of a different size than the temple that John was familiar with.

Zao is life · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
I am not say that Gog/Magog is the beast, nor that Gog is the beast.

And I am not saying that I can convince anyone of the timeline, but in Ezekiel 39 is the makings of the infallible "framework" of end time events.

We can divide it up in three sections. Ezekiel 39:1-16 , Ezekiel 39:17-20, Ezekiel 39:21-29 (which makes the framework infallible).

Ezekiel 39:1-16 is the Gog/Magog event. A massive grave site will be established in the land of Israel.

The seven years that follow the destruction of Gog's army are the same years of Daniel 9:27.

At the end of those seven years is ....

Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon event, Jesus's judgement on the armies under leadership of the beast that have gave to make war on Jesus. Revelation 19:17-18 make the same description as Ezekiel 39:17-20.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth (in the near future), and is recounting all that has taken place regarding Israel since they rejected him 2000 years ago.

Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31.

You've failed to see both the Markan Sandwich and the metaphor in the passages you are quoting.

A "Markan Sandwich" is a style which scholars noticed employed by Mark in his gospel.

What very few realize is that the "Markan Sandwiches" employed by Mark in his gospel are nothing new: this same style found in the narrative in Mark's gospel is very often employed in biblical literature, and is especially prevalent in apocalyptic/prophetic literature, as well as in Psalms and Proverbs.

Failure to notice and recognize "Markan Sandwiches", together with failure to notice and recognize metaphor when it is metaphor in apocalyptic/prophetic literature, has led to an enormous amount of misinterpretation of apocalyptic/prophetic scripture, and has resulted in mountains of faulty eschatological nonsense being propagated by Christians.

An example of a "Markan Sandwich" in apocalyptic/prophetic literature is the closing sentence in Hosea 1, (which is a major part of the theme of the prophecies given in this post in order to give examples of the opening statements):

Hosea 1
4 And the LORD said to him, Call his name God Will Sow. For still in a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel on the house of Jehu, and will cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease.
5 And it shall be, at that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel.

"For great shall be the day of Jezreel" is a repeat of what was said in verse 5, and closes the theme of the destruction of the house of Israel (i.e the Northern kingdom), and has nothing to do with the rest of the closing verses (verses 10 to 11a, which is talking about the restoration of the house of Israel and the gathering of the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together).

Though not called a "Markan Sandwich" because Markan Sandwiches were only named thus when noticed and recognized by scholars in Mark's gospel, nevertheless what you just looked at is a "Markan Sandwich", which interrupts a subject that was introduced, with another subject, and then closes with the first subject. Mark's gospel is full of them, but biblical apocalyptic/prophetic literature, Psalms and Proverbs are also full of them, and you are about to see an important example below:-

Example of a "Markan Sandwich" in Ezekiel chapters 36-39

Ezekiel chapter 36 opens the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 closes the same subject; and whereas Ezekiel 36:16-38 & Ezekiel 39:23-39 is one and the same prophecy and is referring to Israel, Ezekiel 38:1 to Ezekiel 39:22, which is placed in-between the two sections by Ezekiel, is referring to the Gog/Magog nations.

Take note: Ezekiel 39:23-29 is repeating what was said in Ezekiel 36:16-38.

Even though it has never been given that name when applied to literature outside of Mark's gospel, and was not recognized by scholars until it was seen in Mark's gospel, what you see above is nevertheless a "Markan Sandwich" being employed by Ezekiel.

Note: The subject which was introduced in-between Ezekiel 36, which opens the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 (closing the same theme) is not part of the same subject: The two subjects are related to one another, but are not part of the same subject. This can be clearly seen by the fact that two completely different nations are being referred to:

Whereas Ezekiel 36:16-38/Ezekiel 39:23-39 is referring to Israel, Ezekiel 38:1 to Ezekiel 39:22 is referring to the Gog/Magog nations.

Now compare the two prophetic passages below, because the two passages below are talking about the same thing:

Hosea 1
11a Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land.

Ezekiel 37
15 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
16 And you, son of man, take a stick and write on it, For Judah and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions.
17 And join them to one another into one stick. And they shall become one in your hand.
18 And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you?
19 Say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions, and I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and will make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.
20 And the sticks on which you write shall be in your hand before their eyes.
21 And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and will bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be king to them all. And they shall not still be two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Nor shall they be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in them where they sinned, and will cleanse them. And they shall be to Me for a people, and I will be to them for God.
24 And David My servant shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments, and obey My laws, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, the land in which your fathers have lived. And they shall dwell in it, even they and their sons, and the sons of their sons for ever. And My servant David shall be their ruler forever.
26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27 And My tabernacle shall be with them. Yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the nations shall know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever.

Now compare the above two passages with what is written below:

Ezekiel 38 (God talking to Gog/Magog)
" 8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.)"

Note: The "he" in the above sentence is referring to Jacob, to Israel.

Continuing with God's words to Gog/Magog:

" 10 So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your heart, and you shall devise an evil plan.
11 And you shall say, I will go up to the land of open spaces. I will go to those at rest, who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and there are no bars nor gates to them,
12 in order to take a spoil, and to steal a prize; to turn your hand on the inhabited waste places, and on the people gathered out of the nations, who have gotten cattle and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

In other words, (and keeping with the context of what is being said in the passage and not attempting to interpret it) Gog and Magog's war against the people who had already been gathered back into their own land is not part of the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel (seen in Ezekiel 36:16-18 and Ezekiel 39:23-29).

The "Markan Sandwich" employed in Ezekiel chapters 36-39 separates (a) the Gog-Magog war against the above people after they have been restored, from (b) the time of their restoration.

THE SAME METAPHOR BEING USED IN DIFFERENT PASSAGES

Note: It's only metaphor. Whether or not we place the two passages below in the same point in time in human history will depend on whether or not we are Preterists or Partial-Preterists or Amillennialists or Premillenialists. But the metaphor itself is only metaphor, and the metaphor does not ever of necessity mean that two passages that use the same metaphor are referring to the same things at the same point in time in human history:

Ezekiel 39
17 And you, son of man, So says the Lord Jehovah. Speak to the bird of every wing, and to every beast of the field: Gather yourselves and come; gather yourselves from all around to My sacrifice that I sacrifice for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, so that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the rulers of the earth, of rams, lambs, goats, and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And you shall eat fat until you are full, and drink blood until you are drunk, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 And you shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, all the men of war, says the Lord Jehovah.
21 And I will set My glory among the nations, and all the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.

IN CLOSING

The final sentence in Revelation 19:21, "And all the birds were filled from their flesh" is closing the prophecy with a repeat of what had been said earlier. It's a Markan Sandwich.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You've failed to see both the Markan Sandwich and the metaphor in the passages you are quoting.

There is no metaphor being used in Ezekiel 39.

The language in Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17-18 is almost identical because it is the same event.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon, at Jesus's return.

Ezekiel 39:28 is Matthew 24:31 is Deuteronomy 30:3-4

Zao is life · Dec 29, 2021

Douggg said:
There is no metaphor being used in Ezekiel 39.

The language in Ezekiel 39:17-20 and Revelation 19:17-18 is almost identical because it is the same event.

Suit yourself.

TribulationSigns · Dec 29, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Using the same kind of logic you're using to interpret Revelation 11, we would conclude that Jesus was literally standing in the midst of seven literal, physical candlesticks and He held seven literal stars in His right hand and had a literal, physical sharp two-edged sword coming out of His mouth. Is that how you intepret this passage even though Revelation 1:20 tells us that the seven candlesticks are "the seven churches" (of the ancient province of Asia) and the seven stars are "the angels of the seven churches"? I doubt it.

Agreed!

So, your assumption that the "reed like unto a rod" that John was told to use to "measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein" is meant to be understood as a physical reed to measure a physical temple makes as much sense as assuming that Jesus was standing in the midst of seven physical candlesticks while literally holding seven stars in His right hand.

Rev 11:1-3
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

What @Douggg fails to realize is that the "reed like unto a rod" was used to measure to show God's scepter is for rule in "CORRECTING" any deviations in His House, sacrifice or people! We read the same illustration carefully as seen in the language of Revelation chapter 2.

Rev 2:27
(27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The SAME Greek word for rod. And again it is u sed in the sense of rule and the strength of it in smiting or correction. The rod has always been a symbol of rule in the Scripture. For example:

Psa 110:2
(2) The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Eze 19:14
(14) And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, which hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod to be a sceptre to rule. This is a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

This reed or stick we see in Revelation is the rule of God used for MEASURING the temple, but is also likened unto a rod to symbolize it is a rod of CORRECTION from this ruler God. Correction to those who are His children, whom He loves.

Selah!

Therefore, the house of God MEASURED is the form of Christ. Revelation 11 clearly tells us WHO, WHAT and HOW these are to be MEASURED. The Temple, the Altar, and those that worship thereini are to be MEASURED with the reed like a rod. it is by NO MEANS the measuring of a physical literal temple as Doug believe because the believers are "also" to be measured. But this is signifying the measuring of RIGHTEOUSNESS for the exhortation and correction of the body of Christ. Let me break this down for Doug to understand:

1.) The HOLY TEMPLE is measured: Imagery of the body or tabernacle of Christ. He is the true Holy Temple of heaven into which only the righteous enter. And being in 'this form' (Romans 8:29) is the only way anyone can measure up, that they can see the Kingdom of God.

2.) The ALTAR is measured: Imagery of the righteous work of Christ, the 'only' way (Hebrews 10:19-20) to enter and become Holy. Christ was laid on that Altar and his blood shed for His people, and that is what makes those who worship in this Holy Temple 'measured' as righteous, that they can conform to it's true dimensions

3.) The PEOPLE are measured: Imagery that those who worship in 'this' Holy Temple are righteous living stones (because they are in Christ, who was sacrificed for them) that they can be measured as inclusive in the Lord's House (Ephesians 2:13).

And don't forget that the messenger stood, and says "rise" [egeiro] (meaning to raise up) and measure these things. It is not that John was laying down, but is language signifying that those who measure the Temple of God ust be those who are "risen in Christ" first. Christ is our support, as He is the first risen from the dead. And because He is risen and is our support, we also rise. it is by His power and through His faith that we have ability to conform to His Image. Pleaes read 1st Corth 15:20 and Romans 8:29 where the very same Greek word "rise" is used. It is signified in the symbology of John, when we are called of god to measure the Holy Temple, we also are commanded to be risen up together with Christ, and be confirmed (measured) into His image. the image of the Holy Temple with EXACT DIMENSIONS. Indeed, that is the only way we will even have true knowledge of the "true" dimensions of the Temple of Heaven, unlike Doug's literal interpretation of the vision.

Also, do you actually believe that John was supposed to somehow literally use a reed to measure "them that worship" in the temple? How exactly was he supposed to do that in a literal sense? Was he supposed to measure the height of each person in the temple or something?

Indeed. My thought exactly!

Kind of like your charts then, I guess.

Yep!

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