New Info on Numbers 1260, 1290, 1335 and 42

3 Resurrections said:

Again, Luke by inspiration in Luke 21:20 did not mention anything at all about a statue being placed in Jerusalem's temple which would desolate the holy place. Luke interpreted "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" as the fulfillment of Daniel's AoD

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It is not Luke speaking in Luke 21:20. It is Jesus speaking.

Jesus was not "interpreting" Jerusalem surrounded by armies to be the fulfillment of Daniel 12's AoD - that's something partial preterists are doing.

Douggg said:

It is not Luke speaking in Luke 21:20. It is Jesus speaking.

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Yes, I think we all understand that. Luke is the one writing Jesus's words down, of course. So, Jesus through Luke passed on more understanding about the AoD than the other gospels did when they simply wrote down "abomination of desolation" in their accounts of Christ's words on this occasion. You should appreciate that Luke and Jesus did the work of interpreting this for us. Makes it simpler. No guesswork.

3 Resurrections said:

Yes, I think we all understand that. Luke is the one writing Jesus's words down, of course. So, Jesus through Luke passed on more understanding about the AoD than the other gospels did when they simply wrote down "abomination of desolation" in their accounts of Christ's words on this occasion. You should appreciate that Luke and Jesus did the work of interpreting this for us. Makes it simpler. No guesswork.

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Both Mark and Matthew are the two gospel accounts that refer to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Which is to take place after the gospel has been spread to all nations.

Matthew and Mark are accounts when Jesus was speaking to the disciples from the Mount of Olives.

Differently, Luke 21, Jesus is in the temple courtyard, responding to how some there were commenting on how beautiful the temple was in verse 5, and verse 6 Jesus said not one stone of it would be left standing.

In verse 20, Jesus spoke of Jerusalem's destruction, implying the temple as well, not one stone left standing. The days of vengeance in verse 22, and its reference written, is in regards to Daniel 9:26. The destruction of the city and sanctuary, by the people of the prince who shall come, which turned out be by the Romans in their vengeance against the Jews for their attempts to break away.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13, on the other hand, Jesus references the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12, to take place at the time of the end in Daniel 12:4.

The abomination of desolation therefore was not in Luke 21. The desolation of the city and temple are in Luke 21 - because of the vengeance of the Romans against the Jews.

The abomination of desolation in the end times will not be set up as an act of vengeance, but for worship of the beast. Desolation of the temple from worship of the One True God will not be as an act of vengeance, but of evil for a different reason - the beast's desire to be worshiped and Satan's desire to be worshiped as well.

@3 Resurrections

I think that Matthew and Mark and some of the other disciples were in a different part of the temple complex when Jesus addressed the onlookers comments on how beautiful the temple was in Luke 21. Luke was there, so he wrote down what Jesus said.

My reasoning is that the issue came up again about how beautiful the temple was, this time by the disciples themselves, as the disciples were leaving the temple complex, outside of the temple, on their way walking to the Mount of Olives....as if they did not hear what Jesus had already been spoken about it earlier.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

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So, there is an account by Luke of what Jesus said in the temple complex to the onlookers. Which is the 70 ad destruction of the temple and city for reason of vengeance (by the Romans).

And then afterward, on the disciples' way to the mount of olives, there are the two accounts by Matthew and Mark of what Jesus said on the mount of Olives, which those Matthew and Mark accounts included the abomination of desolation.

But Luke never mentioned the abomination of desolation, because Jesus did not refer to it while he was in the temple complex in Luke 21. Jesus did refer to what was written Daniel 9:26, in Luke 21:22. Which was fulfilled in 70AD.

The abomination of desolation though is still future, which is at the time of the end. Our generation.

The abomination of desolation will be the image of the beast, a statue, to be incarnated by Satan, and standing in the temple courtyard.

Christian Gedge said:

Division of the ‘Week’ Diagram

The special festival in the middle year is actually a 'fulcrum' between two significant counts. Each 'time, times and half a time' had an additional month added to the 'base' 42 months, making a total of 86 lunar months altogether. Please examine the diagram taking note that the Day of Atonement stands independently between the two counts.

Notice how the first ‘t, t, + ½ t’ was precisely 3.5 solar years, but the second half of the ‘week’ was 1260 days. From what I can see, every Sabbatical cycle follows this pattern.

Have a look at the diagram again. The full seven years contains 1278 + 1 + 1260 = 2539 days. Divide that by 29.53 and, voila, 86 lunar months! I reckon it was more accurate than any of the modern calendars!

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Question:

Based on the information you have given it looks to me like whereas "a time, times and a half a time" can refer to either the first half or the second half of the week (Revelation 12: 6 & 14), the moment we read 1,260 days (or 1,290 days) in apocalyptic scripture then we need to understand that it's speaking about the final 42 months or 3.5 years in a 7-year period?

The woman of Revelation 12 was protected in the wilderness after the child had been caught up to God and to His throne. Jesus was crucified in the middle of the week (and even though it was Passover, it makes sense that the Day of Atonement is mid-week). Jesus died and rose again in the middle of that week (which completes Daniel's 70 weeks), and ascended into heaven within 40 days of His crucifixion.

Or is this question (regarding which part of the "week" 1,260 days in the Revelation is referring to) just an assumption I'm making?

PS: Have a wonderful Christmas Chris. Hopefully the woman in the seat in the Kiwi Parliament will leave you all alone for at least 3.5 days.

Christian Gedge said:

I think you are right. It’s a question I ask myself too, especially when we interpret the book of Revelation literally. In the case of Revelation 12 though, it is so symbolic that I’m inclined to think John is using these old numbers to represent things. Unless the old calendar gets put to use again. Oh, the thinks that we can think!

Have a great Christmas bro.

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Thanks

This is for after Boxing Day (or after new year, or whenever):

I've mentally removed the chapter divisions between Revelation chapters 12 and 13, bearing in mind that the chapter divisions in the New Testament (and the Revelation) were only inserted in the year A.D 1227 (before this, the Revelation was just one long book, and there are some parts of some chapters that were inserted in A.D 1227 which should be included in the previous chapter, for example, Revelation 19:1-4 obviously belongs in chapter 18, with the destruction of Babylon the Great).

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11 & 17 through to Revelation 13:1-2 & 7
.. "And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death ..

.. And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ...

.. And I stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns. And on its horns were ten crowns, and on its heads was the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority..

.. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation."

Notice how the crowns shift from the dragon's seven heads (Revelation 12:3) to the ten horns/kings (Revelation 13:1) at the close of the Age when Satan gives the beast his seat, his power, and great authority.


(a) The spiritual forces existing behind the scenes from the beginning to the end of Satan's war which was first against God's Messiah (but the dragon was defeated), and is now against the saints; and

(b) The channels for Satan's war against the saints at the close of the Age, i.e the beast & false prophet.

The entire section opens with the beginning of the gospel Age, and closes with the culmination of the dragon's war against the saints and against the Kingdom of Christ.

Revelation 17 informs us that that (seven-headed) beast existed in the world long before John's day, and even long before the Messiah came into the world (just as the dragon had existed long before the Messiah came into the world). It's ten horns/kings are its final kingdom, which is to exist simultaneously with the beast ascending out of the abyss, to which the ten kings hand over their power and authority (Revelation 17:12-13).

This final kingdom is also said to exist simultaneously with the beast John saw rising from the earth, which exercises all the authority and power of the ten kings during the time of their presence in the world (Revelation 13:12).

So we have the dragon giving the ten kings his seat, power and great authority, and we have the ten kings placing all their authority and power in the hands of another beast.

Both Revelation 17 and Revelation 13 make a distinction between the two end-times beasts.

The ten kings are given authority to continue for 42 months. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days, while they are clothed in sackcloth.

At the end of this period the two witnesses are martyred by the beast ascended from the abyss (Revelation 11:3 & 7), which, incidentally, had received power & authority from the ten kings (Revelation 17:12-13).

Incidentally, the beast John saw rising from the earth was also exercising all the power & authority of the ten kings, and this beast that rose from the earth caused all who refused to worship the beast or its image to be killed (Revelation 13:11-18). I could be wrong of course but it suggests to me that the false prophet IS the beast ascended from the abyss.


The passage seems to make a distinction between the woman who had given birth to the Messiah on one hand, and "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" on the other hand, so though I could be wrong, it seems to me that (the Revelation 12 part of the passage) is telling us that the woman who had given birth to the Messiah fled (past tense) into a spiritual wilderness where she was nourished by Christ through His servants, the apostles, for the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week, i.e 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6 & 14).

If the above is the case, then the above 1,260 days is neither referring to the entire Age, nor is it referring to the end of the Age.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I've mentally removed the chapter divisions between Revelation chapters 12 and 13,......

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I would like to make a little comment here. Have you ever noticed how some poster's post are hard to read - mainly because their post is just one big paragraph long?

While posts by others are easy to read - because their posts are broken down into paragraphs that are one, maybe two, three sentences at the most, long.

And also have space between their paragraphs. Which their paragraphs are not indented at the start.

Well, what I have concluded is that we all (the easy to read group) are subconsciously mimicking how the kjv online by verse format is written.

Take a look at how Daniel 12 is written, for example.

DANIEL CHAPTER 12 KJV

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The entire section opens with the beginning of the gospel Age, and closes with the culmination of the dragon's war against the saints and against the Kingdom of Christ.

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Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Who would be in heaven to look down on earth and consider them who have received salvation, and the kingdom of God, and the power of Christ - as being their brothers?

The answer is those in heaven with the loud voice, will be the raptured/resurrected Christians... who expect someday all Israel to be saved,grafted back into the kingdom of God tree.

The ones in verse 10, called "our brethren", are the Jews, Israel, the woman in Revelation 12, who will turn to Christ in the middle of the seven years - after their mistaken messiah, the Antichrist, betrays them.

1260 days first half of the 7 years, verse 6 + the war in the second heaven time + the time/times/half time, verse 14 = the 7 years.

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Revelation 13 picks up with the Antichrist having become the beast, to rule the world for 42 months until Jesus returns.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Who would be in heaven to look down on earth and consider them who have received salvation, and the kingdom of God, and the power of Christ - as being their brothers?

The answer is those in heaven with the loud voice, will be the raptured/resurrected Christians... who expect someday all Israel to be saved,grafted back into the kingdom of God tree.

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Wrong because the reason is given why the dragon who had been accusing the brethren was cast out, i.e "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

This salvation mentioned in Revelation 12 does not come only at the close of the Age. It came at the beginning of the Age: “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Douggg said:

1260 days first half of the 7 years, verse 6 + the war in the second heaven time + the time/times/half time, verse 14 = the 7 years.

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There is no "seven-year tribulation" mentioned anywhere in scripture. Only the final 3.5 years of the Age is mentioned. The "seven-year tribulation" is an entirely false notion based on one misinterpretation of scripture upon another, beginning with the false notion that you can mentally use your mouse to highlight and cut Daniel 9:27 out of its chronological place in Daniel's 70th weeks, and paste it into a folder titled "the end of this (current) Age".

Like the entire "pre-tribulation rapture" false notion, it only works for those who don't allow the scriptures to speak for themselves. I suggest that you read CG's book "The Atonement Clock" with an open mind. It allows scripture to speak for itself, and only those who choose to ignore f-a-c-t-s in order to hold onto their false notions will not acknowledge the great significance of CG's discoveries based on his intense research on the subject.

Douggg said:

I would like to make a little comment here. Have you ever noticed how some poster's post are hard to read - mainly because their post is just one big paragraph long?

While posts by others are easy to read - because their posts are broken down into paragraphs that are one, maybe two, three sentences at the most, long.

And also have space between their paragraphs. Which their paragraphs are not indented at the start.

Well, what I have concluded is that we all (the easy to read group) are subconsciously mimicking how the kjv online by verse format is written.

Take a look at how Daniel 12 is written, for example.

DANIEL CHAPTER 12 KJV

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I know. My style is probably just as irritating to many as the elaborate graphs of others consisting of faulty timelines based on misinterpretations of scripture.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I know. My style is probably just as irritating to many as the elaborate graphs of others consisting of faulty timelines based on misinterpretations of scripture.

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Actually, I thought your style was fine. I was not referring negatively to your style, but to some others who post one lengthy paragraph which is burdensome to read.

Douggg said:

Actually, I thought your style was fine. I was not referring negatively to your style, but to some others who post one lengthy paragraph which is burdensome to read.

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Then it wasn't necessary to criticize others' style when answering a post I made.

Merry Christmas.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Wrong because the reason is given why the dragon who had been accusing the brethren was cast out, i.e "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

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In particular the two witnesses, at the end of their 1260 days testimony, coinciding with Revelation 12:6.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

his salvation mentioned in Revelation 12 does not come only at the close of the Age. It came at the beginning of the Age: “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

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Revelation 12:10 is the timing when the Jews, Israel, en masse will turn to Jesus. The church is the voice in heaven in verse 10, having been raptured out of the world before Satan is cast down do earth - from the second heaven.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

There is no "seven-year tribulation" mentioned anywhere in scripture. Only the final 3.5 years of the Age is mentioned. The "seven-year tribulation" is an entirely false notion based on one misinterpretation of scripture upon another, beginning with the false notion that you can mentally use your mouse to highlight and cut Daniel 9:27 out of its chronological place in Daniel's 70th weeks, and paste it into a folder titled "the end of this (current) Age".

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I am going to agree with you that the expression "seven-year tribulation" not only is not found in the bible, but will add it is a thought up term coming from certain bible institutions.

There is actually no expression of 3.5 years or 3 1/2 years in the bible, either. The bible expressions are one week (Daniel 9), 7 years (in Deuteronomy 31:9-13), 1260 days, 42 months, time/times/half time.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Then it wasn't necessary to criticize others' style when answering a post I made.

Merry Christmas.

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Merry Christmas.

Douggg said:

In particular the two witnesses, at the end of their 1260 days testimony, coinciding with Revelation 12:6.

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It's an assumption you make, and which you can only make by counting Christ's words as unimportant:

John 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
33 But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

Revelation 12
5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.

In your many assumptions, you're making the death and resurrection of Jesus of no consequence to the casting out of Satan.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10 is the timing when the Jews, Israel, en masse will turn to Jesus. The church is the voice in heaven in verse 10, having been raptured out of the world before Satan is cast down do earth - from the second heaven.

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More assumptions based on nothing that the Bible actually says.

Douggg said:

There is actually no expression of 3.5 years or 3 1/2 years in the bible, either. The bible expressions are one week (Daniel 9), 7 years (in Deuteronomy 31:9-13), 1260 days, 42 months, time/times/half time.

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Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 are speaking about the same 3.5 years; and Daniel 12:7 together with the history of Antiochus Epiphanes is a biblical type of it.

The one "week" of Daniel 9:27 followed (past tense) chronologically in time after the first 69 weeks (i.e it was fulfilled in century 1 A.D). There is absolutely no biblical reason to assume that it can be highlighted with your mouse, then cut 'n pasted into your folder titled "the end of this (current) Age and the return of Christ".

As I said, read CG's book "the Atonement Clock" with an open mind, after clearing your mind first of your many false assumptions, and let scripture speak for itself.

Revelation 12 is telling us about the forces taking place behind the scenes, and begins at the beginning of this Age, and continues for the entire Age. The passage only (actually) ends where Revelation 13 ends, because whereas Revelation 12 begins at the beginning of the Age, Revelation 13 tells us about the close of the Age.

The woman who gave birth to the Messiah was protected in a symbolic wilderness for literally 1,260 days: the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Or she (the Church) literally fled into the wilderness during the 66-70 A.D Roman war against Judea (making a gap of 40 years and not 2,000 years between the middle of Daniel's 70th week, and the close of it). Either way, the 1,260 days is 100% literal, occurred at the beginning of the Age, and brought Daniel's 70th week to a close.

.. but not for those among us in the church who choose to continue to believe our long lists of (false) assumptions which have no biblical basis, instead of allowing scripture to speak for itself.

Christian Gedge said:

Also, the ‘time, times and ½ time’ is not the same as the 1260. I

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awesome stuff here CG!

so, since the “time, times, and half a time” is not the same as the 1260 (1290 for leap years) days, does it seem reasonable to conclude that Daniel 12:7’s “t + 2t + 1/2t” is not the same event as as the Daniel 12:11’s “1290 days”?

Christian Gedge said:

Daniel was a man of science and would have been familiar with Hebrew as well as Babylonian astronomy.

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is it possible that Daniel didn’t understand the significance of the “times, time, and half”?

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?