The place of 'Good Works' in the Christian life.

klutedavid · Dec 24, 2021

fhansen said:
In Matt 19, where Jesus tells the rich young man that he must keep the commandments to enter life, He lists the Ten Commandments. In Rom 7, where Paul tells us that the law is right: holy, spiritual, and good, he names the Ten Commandments. In Rom 13, where Paul tells us that love fulfills the law, he references the Ten Commandments.

The mainline churches have always held that obedience of the Ten Commandments is still necessary.

They are in error.

klutedavid · Dec 24, 2021

fhansen said:
A work of the law is simply an external act, that “looks like” righteousness but which is totally meaningless in and of itself. If I refrain from murder but still have anger in my heart I’m still a murderer. If I have lust in my heart but abstain from adultery I’m still an adulterer. Jesus wants us changed first of all, on the inside, and that’s a matter of grace; properly understood it’s grace producing the love that does no harm to neighbor, fulfilling the law by its nature.
“Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.” Matt 23:26

One of the best Catholics I have seen posting replies.

Your understanding of the revelation of the Christ and grace, is excellent.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

klutedavid said:
One of the best Catholics I have seen posting replies.

Your understanding of the revelation of the Christ and grace, is excellent.

Whoa, thank you-wasn’t expecting to hear that I guess

.

klutedavid · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
What is the Roman Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox position on good works; do they contribute to our right standing before God and our ultimate salvation?

Thanks.

Salvation is a gift.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

klutedavid said:
They are in error.

The reason we still benefit from hearing the Ten Commandments is that they remind us that we’re sinners to the extent that we fail to keep them, that we fail to love IOW. If we’re perfect in love, we’d have no need to hear and know them. The law is not wrong; fallen man is wrong.

klutedavid · Dec 24, 2021

fhansen said:
The reason we still benefit from hearing the Ten Commandments is that they remind us that we’re sinners to the extent that we fail to keep them, that we fail to love IOW. If we’re perfect in love, we’d have no need to hear and know them. The law is not wrong; fallen man is wrong.

Your understanding of the New Testament is faultless.

Not often I come across someone with 20/20 sight.

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from a sincere faith.

klutedavid · Dec 24, 2021

fhansen said:
The reason we still benefit from hearing the Ten Commandments is that they remind us that we’re sinners to the extent that we fail to keep them, that we fail to love IOW. If we’re perfect in love, we’d have no need to hear and know them. The law is not wrong; fallen man is wrong.

Yet, the law only ever grants the knowledge of sin. The law cannot save or deliver righteousness. The law was given not for us but for the one person who could obey it. Not only did He obey the law, He went far beyond the letter of the law.

Like virtually everything in the Old Testament, the law was a shadow that was fulfilled by the Christ.

Moses wrote about the Christ all the way through the law.

The law condemns and cannot be obeyed.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 24, 2021

Aren't we suppose to be repentant always? If repentance is a state of being, then why isn't the forgiveness of sin? Also, you didn't answer my question about the sin nature.

[/QUOTE]

HTacianas said:
There is nothing anywhere that indicates forgiveness for future sins. The writer to the Romans says:

Rom 3:25 ... because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Baptism remits previous sins. There was a debate in the early Church concerning mortal sins committed after baptism. The "big three" were murder, adultery, and idolatry. The question was whether those sins committed after baptism could be forgiven by the Church. The writer to the Hebrews said:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Around 200 AD, Calixtus of Rome basically won the argument and pronounced that the Church could forgive even mortal sins after baptism. It caused a schism but since has been the tradition of the Church.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

klutedavid said:
Yet, the law only ever grants the knowledge of sin. The law cannot save or deliver righteousness. The law was given not for us but for the one person who could obey it. Not only did He obey the law, He went far beyond the letter of the law.

Like virtually everything in the Old Testament, the law was a shadow that was fulfilled by the Christ.

Moses wrote about the Christ all the way through the law.

The law condemns and cannot be obeyed.

Yes, the law identifies sin and convicts us of it. And yet…man was never created to be a sinner. So obedience must be possible. In fact, if obedience was impossible then man couldn’t be held blameworthy for disobedience. The answer is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ reconciles man with God; He is that union which all humans are intended to become. He doesn’t just fulfill the law for us, He then fulfills it in us. By union with God man may now begin to be who he was created to be even as he'll still struggle against sin and the old man and the pride that pulls us back down. In that struggle, however, we work our our salvation, we're tested and refined, we confirm our election, we grow in righteousness-or not; we may yet fail.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:21

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"We" will continue to be part of the "equation" until we finally give it all up, until we finally love God fully, with no distraction, with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Then man's purpose, the reason God made us-will be realized, even if only fully in the next life. And sin, incidentally, will be totally overcome, obliterated in us, by that love. We just need to be on that journey, that "journey to perfection" as it's been called, now.

It's incorrect to think that sin cannot be overcome in man. It will be-and that's to begin here and now. The gospel is not about giving up, so to speak, and saying, "It can't be done so Jesus did it". Jesus shows us that it can be done-and enables and empowers us to do it too. We can finally begin to do God's will on earth as it is in heaven. The lesson isn't that man is just a hopelessly wretched sinner, but that man is a hopelessly wretched sinner apart from God.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
God doesn't come piece meal (forgive me for putting it so crudely). If God is your righteousness, then in baptism, you have received the whole of righteousness. There is no progression or attainment. It's already yours.

Its already yours to -do with what you will. To embrace, act on, express, and grow that righteousness- or to bury it-or somewhere in between.

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Here you seem to be distinguishing between God and love?

Does God love...or is God love? The answer is both. The gift of love is the gift of Himself to us. We decide and reveal, by how we actually live our lives, by how well we love, whether or not we continue to value the gift.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I was sort of with you, until the last part.God in Christ is the basis.

Unnecessary hair-splitting. Are we justfied by faith, or are we justified by Christ/God? The two are the same because, again, it's the union with God that the gift of faith establishes that is the essence of justice-right order-for man. Christ is the basis: God is the basis: grace is the basis: from man's side of things faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in response to grace is the foundation of righteousness for us. It's what brings us together with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing'.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I'm curious, why are you interpreting 'works if the Law' through a Pharisaical lense?

Because they epitomized the performance of those works. That's why Jesus used them as a contrast against the real thing.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
And that he is unholy, unspiritual. That he does what he doesn't want to do and is subject to death. But Paul nevertheless, is an Apostle and saved. If someone could keep the commandments, then yes, they would be saved, but no one can. For as Paul says elsewhere in Romans, 'There is none righteous'.

There is none righteous prior to Christ's work, prior to our justification, to our being made just. Jesus Christ is the answer because He does that work in us as we turn to and unite with Him in faith, now having come to know the true God for ourselves through Him. The New Covenant:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 24, 2021

fhansen said:
Its already yours to -do with what you will. To embrace, act on, express, and grow that righteousness- or to bury it-or somewhere in between.

I am glad that R. Catholicism teaches that Christ's righteousness is already mine, that he is for me as well as in me. This is foundational for me.

Does God love...or is God love? The answer is both. The gift of love is the gift of Himself to us. We decide and reveal, by how we actually live our lives, by how well we love, whether or not we continue to value the gift.

This is true, I guess. It sounds very industrious to me, so I am not entirely comfortable with it.

fhansen said:
Unnecessary hair-splitting. Are we justfied by faith, or are we justified by Christ/God? The two are the same because, again, it's the union with God that the gift of faith establishes that is the essence of justice-right order-for man. Christ is the basis: God is the basis: grace is the basis: from man's side of things faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in response to grace is the foundation of righteousness for us. It's what brings us together with Him, 'apart from whom we can do nothing'.

Doesn't R. Çatholicism teach that grace is created though? I think that's what I am hung up about.

fhansen said:
Because they epitomized the performance of those works. That's why Jesus used them as a contrast against the real thing.

I always took the Pharisees as imposters not as individuals who obeyed the Law in the way, say, David, Zachary, Elizabeth, ect (the OT saints) obeyed it.

fhansen said:
There is none righteous prior to Christ's work, prior to our justification, to our being made just. Jesus Christ is the answer because He does that work in us as we turn to and unite with Him in faith, now having come to know the true God for ourselves through Him. The New Covenant:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33

Ok.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 24, 2021

I find comfort in death. There is a peace that exists between God and I. When I hear God's Law, I know that I am condemned. To accept my 'death sentence' is to no longer argue with God about how I shouldn't be entirely condemned. I am in accord with him, in agreement. The emntity is ended. This is what repentance is to me, an actual change in my relationship with God, not just an, 'I'm sorry'. I'm not an automation, I'm not anything. I'm still, silent, asleep. This is why I like Hasychasm so much. In Hasychasm, the goal is not just to die to or overcome actual sin, but to enter into a state of passionlessness, to enter as Moses did into the darkness where God is.
But, we may be talking about two different things. Is it okay to have a Theology based upon negation? Because I feel that is really where I belong.

fhansen said:
This is important. In reality there’s always an “I”; God made “you” and doesn’t expect you to become a mindless automaton with Him at the controls. You will eternally have your unique identity, that He created you with. Christianity is about union with God, a union we were made for. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

And should we ever look to see how much faith we have, how much love, how much holiness, how much fruit? Why not? Jesus gave us standards by which we should live, the entire Bible is just that- so should we turn off our ears at instructions or admonishments? Is it wrong to know that we must love God with our whole heart soul, mind, and strength, or to walk humbly with Him and love mercy?

Pietism and legalism rear their ugly heads when those virtues become a matter of pride for us. And goodness has nothing directly to do with ego. When it’s done for ego it’s not good, or still imperfect. Love is the ultimate goodness and acts for the good of others without regard to self. It’s diametrically opposed to pride. That love is and should be our goal, partnered with God who, alone, can accomplish it in us. He wants us to be something, rather than nothing (1 Cor 13:3). He created us and knows our potential; He doesn’t make junk and He didn’t bother with all this creation business just to produce a bunch of robots. We’re to be His hands and feet here on earth.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 24, 2021

klutedavid said:
Salvation is a gift.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Agreed. Salvation from beginning to end is not of (good) works. I'm less certain about 'faith', is it ours or Christ's? I prefer Christ's.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I find comfort in death. There is a peace that exists between God and I. When I hear God's Law, I know that I am condemned. To accept my 'death sentence' is to no longer argue with God about how I shouldn't be entirely condemned. I am in accord with him, in agreement. The emntity is ended. This is what repentance is to me, an actual change in my relationship with God, not just an, 'I'm sorry'. I'm not an automation, I'm not anything. I'm still, silent, asleep. This is why I like Hasychasm so much. In Hasychasm, the goal is not just to die to or overcome actual sin, but to enter into a state of passionlessness, to enter as Moses did into the darkness where God is.
But, we may be talking about two different things. Is it okay to have a Theology based upon negation? Because I feel that is really where I belong.

Yes, in the sense that our egos get between us and God. The problem with man is primarily pride, which is, at its base, an exaltation of the self above anthing else, beginning with God, Himself. We're of value, were to love ourselves, but pride is "inordinate self-love", a perversion of normal and healthy self-love; it's to perceive oneself as having a higher "excellence" than is true about ourselves as Aquinas put it. We can never have too much humility. Enmity is ended as we come to truly know God-because although He hates evil, and sin is oppoed to Him by its nature, He's always loved man passionately; enmity came from man, not Him and that's proven most dramatically on the cross as He endured an excrucatingly humilating and painful death in human flesh at the hands of His own sinful creation, in spite of our sin, if that's what it takes to prove a love so wide and vast and deep that we can only begin to fathom it.

fhansen · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Agreed. Salvation from beginning to end is not of (good) works. I'm less certain about 'faith', is it ours or Christ's? I prefer Christ's.

It's all grace. Our job is only to not resist that grace, to open the door when He knocks-and to keep it open. With that we can now do His will, whatever it is, but beginning with faith.

Albion · Dec 24, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Agreed. Salvation from beginning to end is not of (good) works. I'm less certain about 'faith', is it ours or Christ's? I prefer Christ's.

It's our faith in Christ. That may not change anything about your own belief as you explained it, but IMO it comes closer.

That is to say that when we think we have to earn our salvation (as many Christians do) by piling up a mass of good works, the discerning person should know that it's impossible or at least unfathomable. Which works count the most? How many of them is enough? What if I do good but then backslide...is all the good up to that point negated? No church has the ansewrs.

No, for believers in salvation by deeds, there is no firm footing, just a generalization that's supposed to be followed.

But salvation by faith means that we know we are unworthy but that Christ did the "righting" of our ship for us! We throw ourselves upon his mercy, confident (because he said so) in his assurances of eternal life.

Thatgirloncfforums · Dec 24, 2021

How is faith not a work (ie virtue)? I have always struggled with that.

Albion said:
It's our faith in Christ. That may not change anything about your own belief as you explained it, but IMO it comes closer.

That is to say that when we think we have to earn our salvation (as many Christians do) by piling up a mass of good works, the discerning person should know that it's impossible or at least unfathomable. Which works count the most? How many of them is enough? What if I do good but then backslide...is all the good up to that point negated? No church has the ansewrs.

No, for believers in salvation by deeds, there is no firm footing, just a generalization that's supposed to be followed.

But salvation by faith means that we know we are unworthy but that Christ did the "righting" of our ship for us! We throw ourselves upon his mercy, confident (because he said so) in his assurances of eternal life.

The place of 'Good Works' in the Christian life.

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