2 kinds of Holy Spirit Fillings

Peter J Barban said:

The Bible shows people being filled with the Spirit multiple times and I accept that. I don't assume it happened every time they spoke though.

I also have been filled multiple times for ministry, especially when preaching (I just preach once in a while). I am not filled every time and after a while, I tried to downplay it as I felt I was becoming too "resulty" in my preaching. Meaning, I was too focused on my experience before and during preaching rather than delivering the word as a servant. Also, I was too focused on the church being moved by the Spirit during or after the message.

Also, it got to a point where the anointing was so powerful, I could barely hang on to the pulpit to stand and preach while holding back tears. So, I asked God to expand my heart to hold his blessings, and the anointing after that was manageable. Though perhaps God merely reduced the anointing.

These multiple annointings for speaking are what I think the Bible calls being filled with the Spirit. While you might use another term for them, they are real and powerful.

People say that my teaching and public prayers are also anointed as if I am speaking the words of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on but speaking like this usually gets me more trouble than praise.

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I thank you for sharing but there are some scripture to consider in how we bear witness.

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Granted, this forum invites such testimonies for new members for introductions, but I am not all sure why that is necessary when members get to know others by what they post since no one can really confirm whatever background a member would share. As it is, these scripture seems to come to mind.

Anyway, I am not sure how any member would not be tempted to think of you higher than they ought to think. I am not sure how any believer would not think they are less valued by the Lord because they are not "experiencing" what you had experienced in the ministry or in living as His disciple.

Do you find yourself needing to demote yourself or debase yourself in the eyes of the congregation regularly? Have you ever come across a need to assure members of the church that the Lord is working in their lives even though they experience no tangible evidence that you seem to testify of? Or are they afraid to tell you that in fear that you may say something negative for why they are not?

Just sharing my concerns and the scripture for why I am concern for you & for those you minister to.

Granted, you probably need to share more in order to allay my concerns, but only if you feel led to.

We can keep on being filled is the #3 baptism from post #10

Disciples were filled Acts 2. Then Acts 4:31 they were filled again to speak the Word with boldness. "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:5-32.

The Holy Spirit is in charge of the manifestations of the spiritual gifts (I Cor 12). Some believe they have discernment which is good but discerning of spirits is different and from the Holy Spirit.

Peter J Barban said:

Remember, you literally asked "Do you seek a filling of the Holy Spirit every time God wants you to do something or to say something? I would think that if you really apply that article for what you are believing, would you not wonder at times when you had minster or shared the word, did you feel a tangible moment of a supernatural filling before each time you did?"

And my answer is more or less yes, I expect some level of supernatural filling when I speak.

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What happens when you do not feel it? Do you wait until you do?

I remember when it started happening in my teaching, it slowly grew more often over time until it became a regular experience for me and my students. Then one day, and only one day, the anointing was gone and it was just me teaching on my own without the power of the Spirit. It made me realize how much I needed and depended on God's help when teaching. Fortunately, that loss of anointing hasn't happened for years.

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1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

The anointing here reads as permanent since salvation. So I read this as contrary to your testimony regarding the anointing.

Oh, and since this forum is all about spiritual gifts, I should mention that I have the gift of teaching, so the filling of the Spirit really empowers my teaching gift.

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Had you ever asked Christian leaders if that is the same for them? Sounds new to me even in this sub forum and I have been in other forums.

Thank you for sharing, but my contentions still stands. I am complete in Christ Jesus after having received Jesus Christ at my salvation at the calling of the gospel. There is no other filling to be had.

tturt said:

We can keep on being filled is the #3 baptism from post #10

Disciples were filled Acts 2.

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That was when they were officially saved.

Then Acts 4:31 they were filled again to speak the Word with boldness. "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:5-32.

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That was not Peter & John being filled again when it was the potential 5,000 new believers that prayed that prayer for when they got saved to speak like Peter & John. This new community of believers sold everything they had ad laid it at the disciples' feet and that was distributed evenly among each member of this new community of believers.

So no. That event was not Peter & john praying with them for that to also happen to them when the new believers were praying that they would speak boldly like Peter & John. I am sure Peter & John prayed for them but just not for themselves obviously when the new believers want to speak boldly like them.

The Holy Spirit is in charge of the manifestations of the spiritual gifts (I Cor 12). Some believe they have discernment which is good but discerning of spirits is different and from the Holy Spirit.

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John 14:16-17 tells us how we shall receive the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Spirit at our salvation and that it will not be as the world receives spirits by seeing it or feeling it again and again and again like mediums in contacting ghosts or wizards in contacting famliar spirits.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

When we recognize that our believing in Him is a work of God the Father, then we can only receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ not by sight of signs and wonders.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When we read how & why the Father draws some and not others, then our believing in Jesus Christ is proof we are saved thus born again of the Spirit.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

No signs or proof is required. Our believing in Jesus Christ & tha God had raised Him from the dead is that good report of God having saved us.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Hark said:

Thank you for sharing, but my contentions still stands. I am complete in Christ Jesus after having received Jesus Christ at my salvation at the calling of the gospel. There is no other filling to be had.

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Believers (Disciples) who were baptized already - were baptized in the Name of Jesus.

That is pretty clearly written.

Peter J Barban said:

Here is the forum description:
"Spirit-Filled ... are those who believe that all the various spiritual gifts (or charisms) listed in the New Testament (including but not limited to the manifestations gifts found in I Corinthians 12:8-10) are active in the Church today and desirable in the life of the individual believer, for the edification of the Body of Christ."

I definitely agree with this, and I accept this definition for forum purposes.

I love the gifts, use the gifts and teach the gifts, but when someone asks how to be filled with the Spirit, I don't think believing in Spiritual Gifts is what they want.

I currently want to discuss the Biblical teaching of being filled with the Spirit.

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You say you agree with the statement then you contradict it in the same post.

Additionally the Holy Spirit does not "control" us.

hislegacy said:

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Taken out of quote to read better.

Believers (Disciples) who were baptized already - were baptized in the Name of Jesus.

That is pretty clearly written.

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No. Paul came across certain disciples but he did not know what kind.

There are 3 kinds of disciples that exists in Paul's days. The disciples of John the Baptist's and the disciples of the Pharisees and then the disciples of Jesus Christ's.

Mark 2:18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

So when Paul had asked them, certain that they were disciples, but did not know what kind, about the Holy Spirit, they did not know anything about the Holy Spirit.

So then Paul asked them about what water baptism they were under ad they said john the Baptist's. That means they were not believers in Jesus Christ for if they were, they would be under the water baptism in Jesus's name.

So Paul had to tell these disciples of John the Baptist's about Jesus Christ being the One that John the Baptist was preaching about.

Then they believed and got water baptized in His name and then got saved.

So those certain disciples before, were not believers in Jesus Christ but now they are for why they got water baptized in Jesus's name in becoming disciples of Jesus Christ's.

Thank you for sharing. I hope God enables you to see the truth in His words. I know many believers misapply that as if it means Christians can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation but clearly that is not what had happened here.

Hark said:

If God be willing, He shall help me to be simply direct for Him to minister in the hope that iron sharpens iron will commence here..



I can only guess to what part of scripture you are referring to; is it Acts 4:1-37 ? If so, when Peter & John were arrested, they were interrupted in the middle of having 5,000 potential new believers from Jewish background in getting saved. After they were released, they went unto their "own company", that very 5,000 potential new believers that were about to be saved. When the potential new believers heard what had happened to Peter & John, it was them that had prayed with one accord that they would speak like Peter & John did and it was then they were saved.

Proof of that is how afterwards, this new community of believers sold everything they had and laid it at the apostles' feet in sharing everything equally among this new community of believers. Hence, they were not that community of new believers before.

So that was salvation interruptus when Peter & John got arrested & then they were saved when they had prayed that they would be like Peter & John in speaking what they now believe in Jesus Christ for.

This scripture below removes the necessity of giving the Holy Spirit permission to speak, let alone pray for that to happen for ministry.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Unless you are referring to another scripture for why you seem to think permission from the heart needs to be given first to the Holy Spirit, Matthew 10:19-20 seems to reprove such notion. As it is, Acts 4:1-37 was the salvation moment for those potential 5,000 new believers as they were not saved before.

Thank you in advance for sharing. I hope in the Lord that my reply was simple enough.

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After reading through the posts it appears to me your motive here is not what you present it to be.

topher694 said:

After reading through the posts it appears to me your motive here is not what you present it to be.

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Well, that was hardly edifying to me.

Are there any corrections because I am not seeing any by the scripture and yet I have been quoting scripture. Can you mayhap, show where I had misapplied scripture or why is it that you went to addressing my motive rather than what I had posted?

You can give grounds for judging my motive by addressing why by what I had posted.

As it is ... I can accept the grounds that we are not speaking the same thing by your reply to me, but you have yet to defer of define your position on how we differ.

Hark said:

Well, that was hardly edifying to me.

Are there any corrections because I am not seeing any by the scripture and yet I have been quoting scripture. Can you mayhap, show where I had misapplied scripture or why is it that you went to addressing my motive rather than what I had posted?

You can give grounds for judging my motive by addressing why by what I had posted.

As it is ... I can accept the grounds that we are not speaking the same thing by your reply to me, but you have yet to defer of define your position on how we differ.

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Spamming scripture is not the sign of a good argument. You ask these questions, people answer in good faith and you respond by dismissing the answer with a detailed response of your own answer. If you already had an answer, why ask and act as though you didn't.

I didn't get into scripture initially on purpose. If you can't or won't understand the simple premise, you won't understand the scriptural details.

topher694 said:

Spamming scripture is not the sign of a good argument.

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Sharing relevant scripture is how one give grounds for contentions for the hope of correction.

it is on you to show why it is irrelevant or how it does not apply in keeping with the progress of the discussion.

You ask these questions, people answer in good faith and you respond by dismissing the answer with a detailed response of your own answer. Of you already had an answer, why ask and act as though you didn't.

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Scripture is why I ask those that oppose otherwise those questions, because it is by the scripture tha I see contentions on this issue of any continual filling of the Spirit when I have been sharing all along wat we are all supposed to be saying by the scripture that we have been always spirit-filled since salvation at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed..

I didn't get into scripture initially on purpose. If you can't or won't understand the simple premise, you won't understand the scriptural details.

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2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Reads to me scripture is how one avoid being seduced and deceived.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Jesus taught correction by the word whereby if someone does not listen to the single brother, then 2 or 3 can be gathered to confirm the word shared to that erring brother.

So I am not sure why you seem to think scripture is not the way to go in discerning & proving or reproving this issue with His help. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you for why clarification is needed?

Hark said:

Acts 2:4 was when the disciples were saved. Jesus told Nicodemus when the born again of the Spirit would take place which was after His ascension which was to be after His crucifixion.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So after His ascension was when believers would be born again for why His disciples were saved at Pentecost. That way His disciples would speak the same thing in having received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight of Jesus Christ.

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There is not one iota of evidence in those scriptures that being born again was a future event!
Jesus was demonstrating to Nicodemus, a Pharisee, a legalist, that the only thing which counted with God was whether our hearts were alive or dead to God. And also that such new birth was an act of the Spirit and not by self effort as the Pharisees preached.

Additionally, your understanding of the verses you have bolded is flawed. Verse 13 does not mean nobody had ever gone to heaven before Jesus came, but that nobody had ascended under his own steam ('self' righteousness).
There is clear biblical record that people had previously ascended to Heaven, ie. Elijah was taken up by heavenly chariot. Plus Enoch, who "walked with God, and then he was no more, because God had taken him away."
Jesus was directly challenging Nicodemus's Pharisee theology, which was all about perfecting themselves to earn the right of ascent to heaven.

Indeed, Jesus told His disciples when that promise from the Father would be sent when He was no longer present with them but have gone to the Father.

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This is not a reference to them getting born again, but to the outpouring of power so God's sons could do the job they were ordained for.

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth;

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whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.......

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The scripture you've posted disproves your theology.
Jesus is contrasting the world with the children of God, the disciples, and the world, ie. unbelievers, cannot possibly receive the Holy Spirit in their unregenerate bodies.
In total contrast, believers can receive the Holy Spirit because they are already born from above, born from heaven.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 10th chapter & John 20:22 was not when His disciples were saved but a temporary infilling of the Holy Ghost until the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Spirit would be given by the Father when Jesus was no longer present with them but at the right hand of God the Father.

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You've got to be joking.
The disciples had to be already saved because the following verse proves that the Father would never fill unregenerate people with His Holy Spirit.
Mark2v22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the wineskins, and the wine will be destroyed--and the wineskins. Instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins."
This confirms the disciples were already been born again long before Jesus released the Spirit on them.

I have not read the article only because i understand the scripture regarding the matter. There can be no receiving the Holy spirit "again" apart from salvation for that would go against the warning about preaching another Jesus or another spirit or another gospel to receive in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

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Try telling that to Peter and the early church, who were obviously used to being repeatedly refilled for whatever task the Lord had for them.
Acts4v8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,

And again, the same day..
Acts4v30in that You stretch out Your hand for healing and signs and wonders to take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”
31And they having prayed, the place in which they were assembled was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and were speaking the word of God with boldness.

And again with the story of Elymas, if Paul's infilling with the Spirit was from his time in Damascus, then this verse is filled with superfluous words!
Acts13v9Then Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Spirit, looked directly at Elymas10and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness, you are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery! Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?…

Plus Luke 11:9-13 would have the Father looking evil as if He did not give the Holy Spirit the first time as promised at our salvation for believing in Jesus Christ for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ.

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Another complete misinterpretation of scripture.
Lk 9-13 is addressed to those who are already sons of God. God gives the Spirit to the believers who want more of him.
Anyone who thinks 'asking, seeking, and knocking' ends when you become a believer, will forever remain a babe in Christ!

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

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As pointed out above, this proves the opposite of what you are claiming.

That means we are always filled with the Person of the Holy Spirit as a testimony from God that we are saved and that we shall be held accountable for what we sow towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit whereas in the case of Ephesians 5:18, this is a call to remain sober this remain filled with all the fruits of the Holy spirit rather than sow to the works of the flesh like wine in excess where drunkenness is a result thus no longer sober.

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Why would Paul instruct the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit if it was a permanent feature they had no choice over?

If there was no avoiding drunkenness by avoiding excess of wine; then one could apply that verse to mean it was about seeking a continual filling of the Holy Spirit but that was not the whole verse and therefore cannot be taken in that way although many do, to explain the extra phenomenon in the life of a saved believer, thus believing every spirit that comes over them apart from salvation to be of God when it is not.

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You clearly know this verse, but are obviously ignorant of its significance. Implying that an evil spirit might come on a believer when he seeks the Father for more of His Spirit is an appalling insult to God. Read these words slowly and humbly.
Lk11v11And which father among you, if the son (Take note, Jesus is talking about sons) will ask for a fish, and instead of a fish, will give to him a serpent? 12Or also if he will ask for an egg, will he give to him a scorpion? 13Therefore if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father who is in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!”
When Jesus states categorically, that the Father will give the Holy Spirit to His own sons when they ask him, how dare you imply they will get demonised!


At this point I gave up reading the details. There's just far too much unspiritual garbage and I'm running out of time.

topher694 said:

Spamming scripture is not the sign of a good argument. You ask these questions, people answer in good faith and you respond by dismissing the answer with a detailed response of your own answer. Of you already had an answer, why ask and act as though you didn't.

I didn't get into scripture initially on purpose. If you can't or won't understand the simple premise, you won't understand the scriptural details.

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There is this truth, brother.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

So when does someone that claims to be more spiritual because of extra filling, minister to me to fulfill the law of Christ? And yet I clam no more spiritual filling other than the One we all had received at our salvation moment and so I am going to the scripture to remind all of us of that singular truth.

Hark said:

Sharing relevant scripture is how one give grounds for contentions for the hope of correction.

it is on you to show why it is irrelevant or how it does not apply in keeping with the progress of the discussion.

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This is the type of attitude the Pharisees embraced. Jesus presented the Spirit of the law/scriptures first and reserved the more detailed teaching on it for those who had ears to hear.

Francis Drake said:

There is not one iota of evidence in those scriptures that being born again was a future event!
Jesus was demonstrating to Nicodemus, a Pharisee, a legalist, that the only thing which counted with God was whether our hearts were alive or dead to God. And also that such new birth was an act of the Spirit and not by self effort as the Pharisees preached.

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Nicodemus was not preaching anything but asking Jesus how one can be born again.

Additionally, your understanding of the verses you have

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bolded is flawed. Verse 13 does not mean nobody had ever gone to heaven before Jesus came, but that nobody had ascended under his own steam ('self' righteousness).

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Jesus in the story about the rich man & the beggar Lazarus, placed Abraham's bosom or Paradise beneath the earth and across the great gulf from hell itself.

In 1 Samuel 28:5-20 King Saul consulted with a medium in calling up the spirit of Samuel. This actually had happened as this prophesy from Samuel came about as stated in 1 Samuel 28:16-20

Jesus has to lead us into Heaven first as only He can bring us to God.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ........

So when He had resurrected and had ascended, Paradise is now located in Heaven per Paul's testimony indirectly of the apostle john and that Book of Revelation.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[QUOThere is clear biblical record that people had previously ascended to Heaven, ie. Elijah was taken up by heavenly chariot. Plus Enoch, who "walked with God, and then he was no more, because God had taken him away."
Jesus was directly challenging Nicodemus's Pharisee theology, which was all about perfecting themselves to earn the right of ascent to heaven.[/QUOTE]

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So those 2 witnesses taken to "heaven" is referring to the upper atmosphere; not God's Heaven. I suspect that they are the 2 witnesses that will be dropped off for the first half of the great tribulation as in right now, they ae travelling in time as Philip was transported from one place to another by the Spirit.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Just sharing Biblical reasoning for why I believe those 2 are travelling through time till they get dropped off for the beginning of the great tribulation in Jerusalem.

This is not a reference to them getting born again, but to the outpouring of power so God's sons could do the job they were ordained for.
The scripture you've posted disproves your theology.

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No. It does not. Jesus told Nicodemus when and how one is born again when Jesus was no longer there on earth for why those who believe in Him shall be saved and thus born again of the Spirit. That is keeping it in context of Jesus explaining to Nicodemus His answer.

At this point I gave up reading the details. There's just far too much unspiritual garbage and I'm running out of time.

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It is never spiritual garbage sharing what scripture plainly teaches for why it opposes your position. We prophesy in part & know in part but we are called to love one another in seeking our edification in the Lord.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do take a break to avoid posting in anger, brother.

topher694 said:

This is the type of attitude the Pharisees embraced. Jesus presented the Spirit of the law/scriptures first and reserved the more detailed teaching on it for those who had ears to hear.

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But He still gave the words for those who do hear and we are called to minister to the lost thus fulfilling the law of Christ.

Galatians 6:1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hark said:

But He still gave the words for those who do hear and we are called to minister to the lost thus fulfilling the law of Christ.

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Yep, He did. And as I said, I question whether that is you or not. So far I do not see good fruit.

topher694 said:

Yep, He did. And as I said, I question whether that is you or not. So far I do not see good fruit.

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And still no scripture or any comment or quote from me for why you do not see good fruit.

Our discussion is not one of iron sharpening iron on this issue, so it ends.