So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

AdB · Dec 22, 2021

DavidPT said:
Both in Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38-39 Jerusalem is being surrounded. As to Zechariah 14 verse 2, I do not apply that to 70 AD since that makes nonsense of the text surrounding it. As to Ezekiel 38-39, in my view that all still involves the future as well, most of it meaning what is to be fulfilled in the end of this present age.. Maybe Luke 21:20 is meaning Zechariah 14:2? I don't know. But if it is meaning it, Zechariah 14:2 isn't meaning 70 AD, which would mean neither is Luke 21:20.

Something I have noticed in Daniel 11 that tends to get overlooked, is the following.

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Compare with Luke 21:24.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Daniel 11:33 appears to be meaning during the time of Daniel 11:31.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

This appears to be involving what Jesus was meaning in Matthew 24:15. Nothing in these Daniel 11 passages I brought up leads me to think any of this involves 70 AD. Yet, there is a connection to both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 if I'm on the right track here.

This all indeed seems to indicate that Luke 21:20-24, as well as the parallel texts in Matthew and Mark is about a future siege or some other kind of assault on Jerusalem, or more broadly on Israel.

AdB · Dec 22, 2021

AdB said:
This all indeed seems to indicate that Luke 21:20-24, as well as the parallel texts in Matthew and Mark is about a future siege or some other kind of assault on Jerusalem, or more broadly on Israel.

Also "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" doesn't mean that "Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles" has to start at the starting point of the "times of the Gentiles". So while the "times of the Gentiles" had started after the resurrection of Jesus, there might be a future event where Jerusalem will again be assaulted and overrun by gentile forces.

Douggg · Dec 22, 2021

AdB said:
Luke 21:5 "And while some were speaking of the temple"
There is no reason to believe that these "some" can't be the disciples, moreover, the "some" are the same as "they" in verse 7, which are clearly the disciples.

Have to go back to Chapter 20, there present were the people, the scribes, the chief priests, the elders, Sadducees, in the audience, including his disciples.

But apparently some of the disciples had gone off when he spoke about the destruction of the temple, perhaps to do something mundane as going to relieve their bladder or bowels.
And missed the message about the destruction of the temple, only to bring it up again as they commented about the grandeur of the temple as they were leaving on their way to the Mount of Olives.

I bet they got some strange looks from Luke and the other disciples who had heard the message while in the temple complex.

AdB · Dec 22, 2021

Douggg said:
And missed the message about the destruction of the temple

There was no earlier mention of the Temples destruction...

Douggg said:
I bet they got some strange looks from Luke and the other disciples who had heard the message while in the temple complex.

So how was Luke a disciple around at that time?

It seems quite obvious to me that Luke 21:5 'And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings' is the same speech as Matt 24:1b 'his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.' and Mark 13:1b 'one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!”'

Douggg · Dec 22, 2021

AdB said:
There was no earlier mention of the Temples destruction...

Luke 20-21 is Luke's recording of what Jesus said while in the temple complex. Matthew 24 and Mark 13, by Matthew and Mark, picks up as Jesus and the disciples were leaving the temple complex on their way to overnight on the Mount of Olives.

AdB said:
So how was Luke a disciple around at that time?

It seems quite obvious to me that Luke 21:5 'And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings' is the same speech as Matt 24:1b 'his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.' and Mark 13:1b 'one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!”'

Luke just happen to be the disciple there as part of the audience at the time when Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple.

It is not the same speech, but the same response by Jesus.

Luke 21, Jesus responded to comments on the grandeur of the temple, giving that speech, which contained events about its destruction and what would eventually take place in 70 ad, and the Jews led captive into the nations, until the times of the gentiles ends.

Then later, when Jesus left the temple with the disciples on their way to the Mount of Olives, some of the disciples who missed his speech while in the temple complex - made the same comment of the granduer of the temple - which Jesus gave them the same response in the first two verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. But did not expand about the times of the gentiles and the Jews lead away captive into the nations.

Luke 21, Jesus speaking in the temple complex, has in it - the destruction of the temple and city, referring to what was written in Daniel 9:26. And the Jews lead away captive into the nations, until the times of the gentiles ends. But nothing about the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus speaking on the mount of Olives, has in it the abomination of desolation, and the reference to Daniel 12:11-12, time of the end, but not the reference to Daniel 9:26, and the Jews lead away captive into the nations until the time of the gentiles ending.

So when Luke 21 and Matthew 24/Mark 13 are put together - a person has the destruction of the temple and city, written in Daniel 9:26, and the Jews lead away captive into the nations, until the time of the gentiles ends.

And then after the gospel is preached to all nations, during the time of the gentiles, the end comes, when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped, triggering the great tribulation, ending with Jesus's return. And the regathering of all the Jews back to the land of Israel.

Which the parable of the fig tree informs us that we are living in that generation.

AdB · Dec 22, 2021

Douggg said:
Luke 20-21 is Luke's recording of what Jesus said while in the temple complex. Matthew 24 and Mark 13, by Matthew and Mark, picks up as Jesus and the disciples were leaving the temple complex on their way to overnight on the Mount of Olives.

Luke just happen to be the disciple there as part of the audience at the time when Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple.

I wonder if you are familiar with how the gospels came about?

Mark > Possibly a cousin of Barnabas, he was a disciple of Peter and also accompanied Paul. He was the first to write his Gospel, for which his input came primarily from Peter. Peter was there to hear the Olivine Discourse himself, but Mark wasn't.

Matthew > Former tax collector who followed Jesus pretty much from the start of Jesus' ministry. He was the second to write his Gospel, specifically aiming to his fellow Hebrews and just recalling from his memory. He was there to hear the Olivine Discourse himself, but he might have "recalled" some memories from Marks Gospel, which were essentially Peter's memories, hence the many resemblances between the two.

Luke > Greek physician who inquired many witnesses to write his Gospel as third in line. He has definitely made good use of the earlier two Gospels, but where he came across conflicts with other trustworthy witnesses he chose to sometimes leave details out, other times to add additional information and sometimes to rephrase to compromise between different accounts, hence the many parallels but yet also the many differences with the earlier two Gospels. Luke was not present at the Olivet Discourse to hear it for himself!!!

Acts29 · Dec 22, 2021

AdB said:
If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem

Those passage of scripture have nothing to do with Rome, or history.

AdB said:
and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”,

Jesus is not the anti-christ. He is the Christ. Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven in Daniel 9:27. After that, an abomination was built on the Temple Mount and will remain until the end of the time. Exactly as it is today.

Many of today's translation are actually interpretations. Here is the oldest version:

Daniel 9:25 “'And you shall know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer [to Daniel's prayer] AND [from the going forth of the command] for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

26 “'And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed One shall be cut off, and there is no judgment in Him: and He shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed He shall appoint the city to desolations, 27 and one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week My sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [mount] shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.'”

AdB said:
then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon at Nineveh, will crush Jerusalem and the third Temple at the appointed time.

d taylor · Dec 22, 2021

AdB said:
What I mean is that if Dan 11:36 refers to the person that is talked about in 2 Thess 2:4, then everything starting at Dan 11:36 was yet to happen when Paul wrote 2 Thess...

*

AdB · Dec 22, 2021

Acts29 said:
Those passage of scripture have nothing to do with Rome, or history.

Meaning?

Acts29 said:
Many of today's translation are actually interpretations. Here is the oldest version:

Daniel 9:25 “'And you shall know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer [to Daniel's prayer] AND [from the going forth of the command] for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

26 “'And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed One shall be cut off, and there is no judgment in Him: and He shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed He shall appoint the city to desolations, 27 and one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week My sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [mount] shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.'”

Which translation would this be?

Acts29 said:
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon at Nineveh, will crush Jerusalem and the third Temple at the appointed time.

Nebuchadnezzar had already conquered Jerusalem... Where do you get a "Third Temple" in his days?

eleos1954 · Dec 23, 2021

AdB said:
If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”, then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

2 Thes is referring to the anit-christ that will come towards the end of which actually satan is behind.

Did you read the entire chapter .... pretty self-explanatory

Mark 13

Jesus talked about the "abomination of desolation." This is a reference to Daniel 9:27, where the prophet is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans many centuries after Daniel was first given the vision. We know this because Jesus Himself, by His words here, shows that this is what it means.

And the Christians took Jesus' words seriously too. As the storm clouds gathered and at last the Roman armies besieged Jerusalem it AD. 67-70, they were ready. Jesus' warning indicated that when the time came to leave they should do so without delay, and that is what they did. But how could they escape from the city when it was surrounded by foreign soldiers? The Jewish historian Josephus, who lived through the fall of Jerusalem, provides the explanation "Josephus says (War vi. 9.3 [420]) more than one million people perished during and after the siege of the city and 97,000 more were taken captive. However, during a temporary respite, when the Romans unexpectedly raised their siege of Jerusalem, all the Christians fled and it is said that not one of them lost his life. Their place of retreat was Pella, a city in the foothills east of the Jordan River, about 1 mi.. . . south of the Lake of Galilee.

Matthew 24:1-25 makes it clear that, among other things, Christ is concerned with deceptions that will confuse His people through the ages and into the end time. Among those deceptions will be false prophets and false Christs. Some will come claiming to represent Christ (false prophets), and some will come claiming to be Christ. And the terrible thing is, people will believe them, too.

DavidPT · Dec 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
"This Generation" in the New Testament ALWAYS refers to the then present, LITERAL generation to whom Jesus was speaking... it is not an open-ended, imaginary, metaphorical, elastic, "any meaning you want" term, as you appear to assert.

Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

This seems to mean that this generation involves a type of ppl. No one that Jesus was speaking to at the time could have possibly been around when Abel was killed.

If we then compare to Revelation 18.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Not only does this apparently involve Abel, it also involves every martyr slain upon the earth. There are still saints being martyred as we speak. Therefore, this is a prophecy still in progress, not one that has already been fully fulfilled. Preterists have this meaning when 70 AD occurred, as far as I can tell. How could 70 AD be a full fulfillment when saints are still being slain upon the earth? How does it make sense that this verse has been fully fulfilled if saints are still being slain upon the earth after it has allegedly been fulfilled?

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Should we replace the damnation of hell with 70 AD, like such? Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape 70 AD? What if some of them Jesus was speaking to at the time didn't even live to see 70 AD? Or what if some of them did live to see 70 AD, and instead of being slaughtered, they went into captivity among other nations instead? Even Luke 21:24 indicates that not everyone were killed with the sword at the time if some of them went into captivity among other nations instead. Jesus said this generation cannot pass, till all be fulfilled. Was their captivity fulfilled, meaning the length of it in it's entirety, before this generation allegedly passed 2000 years ago?

parousia70 · Dec 23, 2021

AdB said:
reposting in response

Observe how this doesn't address my point....

"Remember Jesus is talking to His disciples when He tells this parable, but through them also to all believers of all times to come, a parable is not necessarily only applicable to the people Jesus is directly talking to.."

You are NOT claiming that it was applicable to His disciples AND others, rather Your claim is that it is NOT applicable to His disciples AT ALL, and is ONLY applicable to some other people, thousands of years removed.

Again I'll reiterate, no matter who the "you" encompases, it can not EXCLUDE the disciples form Primary Application, as your position asserts.

verse 32: using the fig tree to convey that certain signs indicate a certain time is at hand
verse 33: noting that when "you" see the before mentioned signs (from verse 4) that His coming is near.

Does this mean that once the signs are seen, His coming is futurism's metaphoric, stretched, elastic, figurative, 2000 years away "near"? or does it mean it is Literally "Near - Near"? I can never tell with Futurists what they mean by "near".

Did James see the signs?
James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Surely James was well aware of Jesus' Teaching that His coming would in fact NOT be near and at the doors until certain signs were seen, right?

How Could James have been so wrong?

So here "you" isn't strictly meaning the disciples Jesus is talking to, but all Christians to come...

Impossible.
You are excluding every single Christian who has lived and died before us (most especially the Apostles) from ANY application of this passage, so it therefore CAN'T possibly be for "all Christains to Come" even in your asserted view. Even in your View, the passgae is only applicable to people alive at ONE point in time, and is NOT applicable to ANY others.

parousia70 · Dec 23, 2021

AdB said:
2 Thess 2:9

And you kow Manahem did not display these things.... how?

(Remember, Absense of Evidence does not = Evidence of Absense.)

But lets entertain your thought...
If not Manahem, then who is your pick from the first century for the role? John of Gishgala parhaps? Someone else?

Again, we know from the 2 Thess 2 text that the Man of Sin was a living, breathing Human Man, alive and then presently being held back from his impending takeover of the temple at the time Paul wrote.

So, who's your Pick for who that 1st century man was?

klutedavid · Dec 23, 2021

Douggg said:
In Daniel 9:27, it is referring to the abomination of desolation....

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

which, because it says overspreading of abominations (plural), it includes the abomination of desolation statue image being possessed by Satan when he will be cast down to earth, making the image appear by deceptive miracle to come alive and speak. And by which, Satan will be worshiped in Revelation 13:4.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

________________________________________________

The transgression of desolation act to be committed by the Antichrist is in Daniel 8:13. It will be slightly before the abomination of desolation image thing.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

The verse (Daniel 9:27) in the Septuagint has a plural 'desolations'.

Daniel 9:27 (Septuagint)
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

So are there many desolation statues?

AdB · Dec 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
Observe how this doesn't address my point....

"Remember Jesus is talking to His disciples when He tells this parable, but through them also to all believers of all times to come, a parable is not necessarily only applicable to the people Jesus is directly talking to.."

You are NOT claiming that it was applicable to His disciples AND others, rather Your claim is that it is NOT applicable to His disciples AT ALL, and is ONLY applicable to some other people, thousands of years removed.

Again I'll reiterate, no matter who the "you" encompases, it can not EXCLUDE the disciples form Primary Application, as your position asserts.

Does this mean that once the signs are seen, His coming is futurism's metaphoric, stretched, elastic, figurative, 2000 years away "near"? or does it mean it is Literally "Near - Near"? I can never tell with Futurists what they mean by "near".

Did James see the signs?
James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Surely James was well aware of Jesus' Teaching that His coming would in fact NOT be near and at the doors until certain signs were seen, right?

How Could James have been so wrong?

Impossible.
You are excluding every single Christian who has lived and died before us (most especially the Apostles) from ANY application of this passage, so it therefore CAN'T possibly be for "all Christains to Come" even in your asserted view. Even in your View, the passgae is only applicable to people alive at ONE point in time, and is NOT applicable to ANY others.

Might it be that "near" is used to stress the need for Christians to be ready at all times because no one knows the time of His return?
Just a thought

3 Resurrections · Dec 23, 2021

AdB said:
...how does Dan 9:27b relate to Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20?

Very simple. It's in the margin of the KJV for Daniel 9:27b. "...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and WITH THE ABOMINABLE ARMIES he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The same "abominable armies" causing desolation are under discussion back in Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20 in particular.

AdB · Dec 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
And you kow Manahem did not display these things.... how?

(Remember, Absense of Evidence does not = Evidence of Absense.)

But lets entertain your thought...
If not Manahem, then who is your pick from the first century for the role? John of Gishgala parhaps? Someone else?

Again, we know from the 2 Thess 2 text that the Man of Sin was a living, breathing Human Man, alive and then presently being held back from his impending takeover of the temple at the time Paul wrote.

So, who's your Pick for who that 1st century man was?

No one, but then I'm not convinced that the coming of the Son of men happened in the 1st century...

But why is it that you that "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work" literally as a person being alive at that time, yet you insist "So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." can't be literal?

AdB · Dec 23, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Very simple. It's in the margin of the KJV for Daniel 9:27b. "...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and WITH THE ABOMINABLE ARMIES he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The same "abominable armies" causing desolation are under discussion back in Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20 in particular.

My KJV reads "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"

Douggg · Dec 23, 2021

klutedavid said:
The verse (Daniel 9:27) in the Septuagint has a plural 'desolations'.

Daniel 9:27 (Septuagint)
And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

So are there many desolation statues?

No, only one statue image.

Regarding the abominations...

1. There is the act called the transgression (be cause the Antichrist transgresses, violates, the covenant) of desolation which is called that in Daniel 8:13. Which the Antichrist will sit in the Temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

2. Then there is the abomination of desolation, the statue image of the beast (the beast being the Antichrist after he is killed for his audacious claim and brought back to life).

3. Which, the other abomination is when Satan incarnates the statue image of the beast, making it appear to come alive and speak.

3 Resurrections · Dec 23, 2021

AdB said:
My KJV reads "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate"

Try looking in the margin for the alternative reading that the KJV gives.

So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Heb 11:1

Heb 11:1

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Heb 11:1

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Heb 11:1

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Heb 11:1

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Heb 11:1

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Heb 11:1

Heb 11:1

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

That's 666 YEARS, folks

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