Healing: God Has More Mercy Than Man

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Nevertheless, I would NEVER tell a believer they’re doing something wrong or must adhere to a formula. God chose to heal me. For others, their ailment is a cross or serves a greater purpose for His glory.

~bella

Those who are called to teach the word of God have a responsibility to share potential reasons why a healing might not have manifested. I know you think you're meaning well Bella but if Paul the Apostle went with your way of thinking he would never have allowed the Holy Spirit to express through him scriptures like 1 Cor 11:30 which asks the question why are many weak and sickly among you and why have some even died. Are we never to share why many could be sick or stay that way? Is that really being merciful when people need potential reasons? What Paul said wasn't the only reason either as he said MANY among you. That means a certain number but not all. There were other reasons too and yes one could say a refusal to accept healing by faith, confusing and not knowing what appropriating faith really is.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Those who are called to teach the word of God have a responsibility to share potential reasons why a healing might not have manifested. I know you think you're meaning well Bella but if Paul the Apostle went with your way of thinking he would never have allowed the Holy Spirit to express through him scriptures like 1 Cor 11:30 which asks the question why are many weak and sickly among you and why have some even died. Are we never to share why many could be sick or stay that way? Is that really being merciful when people need potential reasons? What Paul said wasn't the only reason either as he said MANY among you. That means a certain number but not all. There were other reasons too and yes one could say a refusal to accept healing by faith, confusing and not knowing what appropriating faith really is.
I was thinking about this in the past week.

In the circles where the sick are regularly prayed for, not everyone is healed. But some are. Cessationists say this proves that healing is not for today. Claiming that everyone the Apostles prayed for were healed. Yet even Christ couldn't heal everyone in his own hometown.

So, those who do pray for the sick now rightly ask, "Even if only one out a hundred are healed, isn't that worthwhile?"
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I actually believe most Christians have great faith, more than they think they have. So did Jesus when they came to him saying Lord increase our faith. They were going down the wrong road of how to even think about faith. He appealed to their way of thinking for a moment and said, "If you had faith (small as you say you have for you're claiming you need it increased) if you have even faith as a grain of mustard seed (something small) you would say to the mulberry tree or the mountain be thou removed and be cast into the sea and it would obey you. Lk 17:6/ Mk 11:23 Your problem he said isn't needing MORE faith but understanding how to release the faith you've got.

Jesus never spoke to anyone about "releasing the faith" they had.
You quoted John 5; on that occasion, Jesus didn't ask the man if he had faith. And the man didn't even answer his question "do you want to get well?"
How much faith did Jairus and his wife have, after Jesus said "she is sleeping" and they laughed at him? How much faith did his daughter have?

Again the measure isn't primarily important. Knowing how to release one's faith to receive is.

This sounds like a work - that if you can believe enough you can make God heal, or show him that you have done enough to earn your healing.

Keep in mind he did say it's the prayer of faith which get's results.

Sometimes people pray in faith and don't "get results".
Keep in mind that what we want might not be what God wants.

God might listen to a pleading cry outside of the prayer of faith but depends on how much light and revelation he's sought to give one.

How do you know what God might listen to?

If they keep rejecting there is a method to faith James said, NOT I but James let him not think that he'll receive anything from the Lord. Jm1:7

Which, with respect, is nonsense.
Jennifer Rees-Larcombe was someone who believed that if someone got ill they just had to rebuke the illness and it would go. When she became ill she found that that didn't happen. She got encephalitis, was in hospital, actually died and was resuscitated. When her pastor finally heard what was happening and went to pray and anoint her with oil, she improved slightly and the hallucinations she had been having disappeared. She was in a wheelchair for 8 years, went to every healing service possible, received many "words from the Lord" about what she should DO, but remained unhealed.
It was after she surrendered herself to God completely and vowed to love and serve him - in a chair or on her feet - that he spoke to her and said "I want to heal you". The way that happened was that a very new Christian, who believed she could do nothing for God, simply prayed and asked God to heal her.
All the prayers, striving, attending healing services etc did not "work" - God healed in his own way through someone who did not have much faith.
In my own case, I had M.E for 18 years. I went to healing services and sometimes met, well meaning, Christians who told me I should have more faith. Even on these forums I was told that if I did not believe, nothing would happen.
Yet God healed me.
I still don't believe what they were telling me I should believe; I believe that God will absolutely do what is right, what he desires and in his own time.

Joni Eareckson has never been healed physically.
David Watson was prayed for my many Christian leaders and still died from cancer.

So isn't God a merciful God? Yes he is but he does insist certain things be done a certain way.

HIS way; not ours.
We do all kinds of things to make sure we are worthy to get healing; we never can be.

Nope you say I can't say. Not your business to get into particulars about an individual case. You are however called to teach the body of Christ the principles he's laid out in the Bible about the subject.

He hasn't laid out any "principles" on the subject.
People were healed through Paul's ministry - yet Paul left a fellow disciple behind because he was ill, 2 Timothy 4:20, Epaphroditus was so sick he nearly died, Philippians 2:27, Paul himself only preached to the Galatians because he was sick, Galatians 4:13. He raised Eutychus from the dead; how many did he not raise? Peter raised Dorcas from the dead; why didn't he restore James and Stephen after they were martyred?
Jesus commended some people for the faith they showed; he did not even ask others if they had faith.

To teach that there is a certain method one has to follow to get healing, is to put God in a box, or treat him as some kind of divine vending machine.

Yes it takes courage to teach them for people gravitate to make critical statements that one is being unlovely but we must provide the full scope of what God says about it if we truly love each other.

In that case you have to accept that there were, have been and are, may Christians who have prayed in faith and been to, and even led, healing services who have not received the physical healing for which they prayed. I am certain they would have been blessed and strengthened by God, learnt much and become closer to him - but they were not, or have not been, physically healed.

In my experience, some Christians simply don't know what to say on occasions like this, or can't admit that their "formula" hasn't worked. So it's easier to blame the sufferer for not having "enough" faith, the right kind of faith, some secret, unconfessed sin or that, deep down, they don't want to be well.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Those who are called to teach the word of God have a responsibility to share potential reasons why a healing might not have manifested.

Very often no one has any idea why a healing "might not have manifested" - and won't know unless God directly reveals it to them.
Those called to teach the word of God have a responsibility to teach ALL the word; not just random verses on a subject or give select examples.

Are we never to share why many could be sick or stay that way?

Yes; it's none of our business.
Preach the Gospel, preach Christ, preach faithfulness and discipleship and let the Spirit do his work of teaching/convicting/healing. Unless you have the gift of a word of knowledge and God reveals to you that, for example, the cause of Mrs A's ulcer is bitterness towards her family - leave well alone. Publicly stating that X has cancer because of ....., Y has a tumour because his sin was ...... and Z needs to do ..... to be healed is neither kind nor helpful. It may not even be true - it could just be the preacher's opinion.

Is that really being merciful when people need potential reasons?

They don't need potential reasons.
They need to be assured that God loves them, is always with them and that they can never be separated from his love. Then they need to know that the church cares and are praying.
 
Upvote 0

ChristServant

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2020
544
460
South
✟26,634.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Many debate as to whether God desires to heal.

Here's one thing that needs to be considered and I think it answers various questions.
In Luke 13:14 we read,

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.” The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

Many have suggested the only reason Jesus healed was to prove his deity. I wouldn't deny there isn't an aspect of that which isn't true BUT it lets go of the real core reason why Jesus healed. What really is the nature of healing or of staying sick?

Many say Jesus doesn't heal today. That's equivalent to saying we're living in a Sabbath age. The Pharisees said it was wrong for healing to take place on the Sabbath. God doesn't heal on the Sabbath or in this present time. But if God is not permitted to do so because men say so then why is it that they have a right to do so? Jesus wants people to KNOW what is the nature of HEALING. What is healing? It's MERCY! The religious leaders in Christ day didn't get this. They thought healing was fine but really not a big deal and should never go against their religious traditions....NO HEALING on the day or AGE where God isn't supposed to heal! You can see what Jesus called them above for thinking this way. What did he call them? Hypocrites.

He said look if your ox or donkey needs water DON'T YOU provide water for it? Well we see here that the Lord puts healing down as important as giving someone water. Is God not willing to give people water today and let them die of thirst? So really he's saying....HEALING... IS... MERCY! And what do we see today? Religious people are so VERY QUICK to tell someone with physical afflictions where they can get relief from their physical sufferings.

They say try this Doctor, that one or this! So they likewise like the religious leaders of old, are more than willing to provide the mercy of helping a person to become relieved from a physical affliction but NOPE sorry God won't and can't do that today! So what is that really? Isn't that really claiming that MEN are more merciful than God himself! You go and try to help people to get well and you don't think twice about it. You do so for you know it's a good thing to do! So God isn't as good as us?

In this time of covid I fear religious people will have to be accountable for what they didn't tell the people of this generation....that the Lord wants, longs and is more than eager to bring healing today. People either say that Jesus, God cannot bring healing in this sabbath type of age today even though their mercy would allow them to do so or they say if it's the will of God they'll be healed although they'll go right away to a doctor to get his mercy. They KNOW what they need. Mercy. In their way of thinking the Great Physician God might not do it. The human doctor not God, always has the mercy willing to help. Does this seem right?

Thoughts? Opinions?

Your question is much more complex especially considering GOD's knowledge, understanding , mercy and righteousness far exceeds anything we could possibly imagine.

GOD does still heal but doesn't heal everyone because healing for everyone isn't the best thing for them. Even things that seem bad to us GOD will use it for good, that includes good for us.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Jesus never spoke to anyone about "releasing the faith" they had.

Yes he did. I showed you the scripture and the way he said it.

So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. Lk 17:6

In verse 5 they HAD ASKED HIM to increase their faith. He basically was saying it's not an increase you need necessary BUT rather you have to understand how release the faith you've got. What else could it mean, it means what it says. This principle is CLEARLY found in Mk 11:23 and in Rom 10: 10 as well. Believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth .

You quoted John 5; on that occasion, Jesus didn't ask the man if he had faith. And the man didn't even answer his question "do you want to get well?"

Sorry but you can't make that a universal dictate of how God works and does things all the time. What you saw there was a point of God's sovereignty in action which he did do things a certain way for a certain reason. A part of it has to do with how much LIGHT, revelation, hearing of the WORD a person has heard and how much he holds them responsible for. We see this all the time with even earthly parents raising children. You don't expect AS MUCH from one child as you might another for the reason they've had time to hear, learn and grown, or let's put it this way you expect more from a 9 year old then one 3, or more from and older teenager then you would from someone 12. So it still doesn't mean God doesn't REQUIRE faith in what will be the bigger picture of their life.

How much faith did Jairus and his wife have, after Jesus said "she is sleeping" and they laughed at him?

And who laughed and mocked him? The parents? I hardly think you could prove that.

And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. Mk 5:38

It's probably more likely it was just all the other relatives and guests. Jesus had already told Jairus in verse 36 when hearing of the death to fear not, and only believe. There's no indication he mocked or scorned Jesus whatsoever.

How much faith did his daughter have?

Of course she didn't have any. She was gone. But her parents were hopefully optimistic and were seeking to stay with Jesus in believing and not doubting. There's no reason to suggest that they weren't.

(I'll seek to answer the rest of your items later)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes he did. I showed you the scripture and the way he said it.

So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. Lk 17:6

In verse 5 they HAD ASKED HIM to increase their faith. He basically was saying it's not an increase you need necessary BUT rather you have to understand how release the faith you've got.

That's your interpretation.
Yes, the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith. Yet only a few chapters before they had been sent out to drive out demons, cure illnesses and preach the Kingdom of God; all without even provisions for the journey - which they did. That, to me, shows more than a little faith.
I don't remember Jesus telling any of the sick, the blind, the lame or lepers that they had to "release their faith." As I said, he didn't always even ask them if they had any.

Sorry but you can't make that a universal dictate of how God works and does things all the time.

Isn't that what you're doing?
Someone isn't healed; they don't have enough, or haven't prayed with enough, faith. You said that in post #17.

What you saw there was a point of God's sovereignty in action which he did do things a certain way for a certain reason. A part of it has to do with how much LIGHT, revelation, hearing of the WORD a person has heard and how much he holds them responsible for. We see this all the time with even earthly parents raising children. You don't expect AS MUCH from one child as you might another for the reason they've had time to hear, learn and grown, or let's put it this way you expect more from a 9 year old then one 3, or more from and older teenager then you would from someone 12. So it still doesn't mean God doesn't REQUIRE faith in what will be the bigger picture of their life.

So one minute you're saying that people, even Christians, are not being healed because they haven't "released their faith" for God to heal, and the next, that God doesn't require faith to heal.
Interesting.

And who laughed and mocked him? The parents? I hardly think you could prove that.

There were people mocking when Jesus said "the child is asleep", and the parents were probably sceptical.
But it doesn't matter how much faith was in the room - if any. Jesus raised the girl from death.

Of course she didn't have any. She was gone. But her parents were hopefully optimistic and were seeking to stay with Jesus in believing and not doubting. There's no reason to suggest that they weren't.

We are not told they had faith; yet Jesus raised their daughter.
Yet you said that if Christians aren't healed it's because they haven't "released their faith". When a paralysed man was lowered through the roof, it was not he who had faith, but his friends. Whereas Mark 1:29-34 describes how Jesus healed many - and didn't once mention, or look for, faith.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Many debate as to whether God desires to heal.

God desires you to be in Heaven. There you will be whole and healed.
But he also has some things for you to do on earth first.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God desires you to be in Heaven. There you will be whole and healed.
But he also has some things for you to do on earth first.
I don't think that is what is being debated.
More of a question about those who need healing and have been struggling to receive it, yet God does not heal them for some reason. Does God DESIRE not to heal them? Is He withholding healing?

Bobber said:
Many debate as to whether God desires to heal.
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
This sounds like a work - that if you can believe enough you can make God heal, or show him that you have done enough to earn your healing.

So just that readers can pick up on this. You're throwing in Calvinistic theology here that for one to merely believe is a work and somehow God doesn't respond to it. He does however respond to our labor in the spirit.

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Heb 4:11

Not by works lest any man should boast had to do with the seeking to keep the Jewish laws in order to be justified. Those are things which are the work of the flesh and not acceptable. The work of the spiritual Christian is to walk, utilize and release their faith by word and actions. Having to believe God for healing is not incorrect. Jesus said according to your faith so be it done unto you. Matt 9:29

Sometimes people pray in faith and don't "get results".

I think it's a fair question to ask you what constitutes in your opinion someone praying IN FAITH.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So just that readers can pick up on this. You're throwing in Calvinistic theology here that for one to merely believe is a work and somehow God doesn't respond to it.

No, I'm not. I'm a Methodist, we don't accept Calvinism.
You weren't talking about belief, you were talking about "releasing the faith that you have". As I said, that sounds like a work - first you have to know, and/or accept how much faith you have, then you have to discover how to release it and then put that into practice.
That is way more than simple belief.

The work of the spiritual Christian is to walk, utilize and release their faith by word and actions.

Yet no sick person in the NT was told to "release their faith" before they could be healed.
As I said, in some cases Jesus didn't even mention faith. And in some cases, Paul didn't heal at all - e.g. Trophimus.

I think it's a fair question to ask you what constitutes in your opinion someone praying IN FAITH.

Praying in faith means praying with faith that a) God is there, b) that God will hear, c) that God knows what is best and will do what is right, d) that God will act.
It does not mean "right, I really want this and I want it to happen NOW, so I need to try really hard to believe that it will. Because God wants what I want."

We are to pray in faith, in Jesus' name - which means according to his will. The Lord's prayer is "THY will be done", not, MY will.
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I don't remember Jesus telling any of the sick, the blind, the lame or lepers that they had to "release their faith."

Oh come on. You're demanding the exact words, "release your faith". There's a great many, many things in the scriptures' that we have words to describe that are not actually in the Bible. Where's the word Incarnation, Trinity, rapture , if you're a Calvinist as I suspect you are T.U.L.I.P? When Jesus SAW their faith Lk 5:20 (and other similar verses too) that is by their word and action he was observing them YES releasing their faith.

So one minute you're saying that people, even Christians, are not being healed because they haven't "released their faith" for God to heal, and the next, that God doesn't require faith to heal.Interesting.
Yes I CAN absolutely say without stuttering that God DOES require one's faith. That is the ultimate requirement God will expect from them and yes demand of them eventually. And I've already explained God insists upon faith in a certain context. How much light and WORD and teaching have they received or could have received if they were willing to listen and didn't turn it off when he was trying to teach one very much hinges and is connected to how much God will do for an individual. I know some may not like to acknowledge this but James 1: 6,7 confirm this as well. God requires FAITH and a faith that does not waver.

I've seen this over and over and over again in Christians lives. They say when I first got saved it seems every prayer I prayed was answered and I was healed repeatedly. Now I never get healed and can you tell me why? Well God did a lot for Israel when they were coming out of Egypt. He didn't require much of them with anything about faith. Came a time though where God insisted OK now I've shown myself to you and did wonderous things now it's time for you to believe me and have faith by words and actions that you are believing me. Without it I'm sorry but you just won't receive much from God. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to, he does but one limits God in how they're believing.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh come on. You're demanding the exact words, "release your faith".

Where is the concept of "releasing your faith taught?
The paralysed man who was let down through the roof was not even asked if he had any faith.
The man at the pool of Bethesda did not even answer the question "do you want to get well?"
There is no record that Peter's mother-in-law expressed any faith - they simply told Jesus she was ill. Nor is there any record that the many people who came to the house believed, or had any faith at all.

if you're a Calvinist as I suspect you are T.U.L.I.P?

You haven't read my post then - I don't accept Calvinism.

When Jesus SAW their faith Lk 5:20 (and other similar verses too) that is by their word and action he was observing them YES releasing their faith.

In SOME miracles, yes; in others, faith isn't even mentioned.

Yes I CAN absolutely say without stuttering that God DOES require one's faith.

God doesn't NEED anything from us.
He created us and saved us without our knowledge, permission or belief. He does not demand that we prove ourselves to him; he knows that we can never do that.
I have read of non Christians, who had no faith at all, being healed. In the case of the 10 lepers, all were healed, only one returned to thank Jesus and there is nothing at all to suggest that the other 9 came to faith or lost their healing due to lack of faith or gratitude.

I've seen this over and over and over again in Christians lives. They say when I first got saved it seems every prayer I prayed was answered and I was healed repeatedly. Now I never get healed and can you tell me why? Well God did a lot for Israel when they were coming out of Egypt. He didn't require much of them with anything about faith. Came a time though where God insisted OK now I've shown myself to you and did wonderous things now it's time for you to believe me and have faith by words and actions that you are believing me. Without it I'm sorry but you just won't receive much from God. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to, he does but one limits God in how they're believing.

Someone else once said to me that if I didn't believe I would not receive a miracle from God; another person said that as I didn't believe, that is why I was not healed. Both people were Word Of Faith - and from their other posts it was clear that they meant, "unless you believe in our doctrine, you won't be healed."
Well no one told God that, because he healed me - and I still don't accept Word Of Faith teaching.

"I won't receive much from God"? I already have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ - salvation, hope, assurance, power, the Holy Spirit, life, peace, joy, security and the status of a daughter of the King of Kings. And I received physical healing as well; I think that's enough to be going on with.
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
We are not told they had faith; yet Jesus raised their daughter.

Sorry S.I.M. but it's ridiculous for you even to suggest this. Then WHY did Jairus even go to Jesus to begin with if he had no faith?

Yet you said that if Christians aren't healed it's because they haven't "released their faith".

First I'd never go to an induvial on a personal level and say THIS IS REASON why for you. If they asked me I'd teach them what the scriptures teach about the possible reasons. Could that be one of them that they didn't release their faith? Perhaps. It could be something along the line of what the Apostle Paul stated as well in 1 Cor 11:30 and actually that's the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul answering the question why are there many sick among you and some have died? He gives reasons there too. Which raises the question....you seem to take the position of many that almost NEVER want to acknowledge we ARE TO TEACH possible reasons why one isn't healed. I've shown you God did through Paul. So with all due respect I'm not sure why you resist what the Bible says about these matters.

When a paralysed man was lowered through the roof, it was not he who had faith, but his friends.

Why is it that you're trying to get everybody in unbelief? All the scripture says is Jesus saw their faith, meaning he saw their faith in action. And you don't have even the slightest of evidence that the paralyzed man had no faith. It could have been him which asked his friends to take him there. And he allowed them to put him on a roof and be lowered down by ropes on his bed that takes risk and a willingness to allow it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry S.I.M. but it's ridiculous for you even to suggest this. Then WHY did Jairus even go to Jesus to begin with if he had no faith?

Desperate people will do/try anything, even if they have no real faith in the outcome.
But the only point that I was trying to make here was that the daughter herself had NO faith. Jesus didn't talk to the parents about "releasing their faith" - he didn't mention faith at all, he just healed.

First I'd never go to an induvial on a personal level and say THIS IS REASON why for you.

That's good. :)

If they asked me I'd teach them what the scriptures teach about the possible reasons. Could that be one of them that they didn't release their faith?

You haven't made a case for people needing to "release their faith" before they can receive healing.
If this was something demanded, or required, by God, it would have happened and been seen in the Gospels - every single time.

Which raises the question....you seem to take the position of many that almost NEVER want to acknowledge we ARE TO TEACH possible reasons why one isn't healed.

You can do that if you wish. I teach that God is God; all powerful and all loving, and that prayer is talking to God, seeking and aligning ourselves with his will. Not saying "I want this NOW" and then trying to explain to people why God hasn't done what they wanted him to do.

I've shown you God did through Paul.

God did many amazing things through Paul. Yet there were also times when Paul wasn't healed - for example when visiting the Galatians - and didn't heal. For example, he left Trophimus in Miletus because he was sick, when he could have healed him and taken him on his missionary journey.

Why is it that you're trying to get everybody in unbelief?

I'm not. I believe God can heal and have shared about my own healing.
I'm just saying that God is not a slot machine, when you put the right thing in, get out what you ask for and if you don't there must be a "reason" for it.
This "reason" always ends up being the fault of the sick person - not enough faith/hidden sin/ancestors involved in X etc. The sick person is always told there is something they must do to make God act and get what they want from him.
I believe in the Sovereignty of God; that he is love, that he is merciful, that he will do what is best for us, and that his ways are higher than our ways. He could have healed me from M.E the first time I prayed. If he had done so, fantastic. But I wouldn't have then learned the things that I did learn - like trusting in him and his strength, and experiencing his resources when I had none of my own.
I have read testimonies from Christians who have said they were glad that they had the illness that they did, because it brought them closer to God.

All the scripture says is Jesus saw their faith, meaning he saw their faith in action. And you don't have even the slightest of evidence that the paralyzed man had no faith.

You don't have the slightest evidence that he did have faith.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@Bobber and @Strong in Him
For the record.
Jesus is able to heal whether we have faith or not. He prefers that we do.
On the other hand, Jesus was unable to heal everyone in need of healing in his own hometown due to the general unbelief there.
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
No, I'm not. I'm a Methodist, we don't accept Calvinism.
You weren't talking about belief, you were talking about "releasing the faith that you have". As I said, that sounds like a work - first you have to know, and/or accept how much faith you have, then you have to discover how to release it and then put that into practice.
That is way more than simple belief.

And for you to say anyone carrying out the process of what it means to believe (a verb denoting action) and that somehow to you sounds like work....sounds like Calvinism. Believing according to Rom 10: 10 means to believe in one's heart and confession is made UNTO salvation. If that sounds like WORK to you need to realize that's the labour we do carry out in the Spirit to enter into his rest. Heb 4:11

Yet no sick person in the NT was told to "release their faith" before they could be healed.

You're refusing to acknowledge it because you're demanding those words, "release your faith" That's just a modern way of saying according to your faith so be it done unto you. problems)

As I said, in some cases Jesus didn't even mention faith.

He set if forth enough time to establish the primary condition. And all those times many of them which you'd say FAITH had nothing to do with it I beg to differ. You have to consider scriptures like, Lk 6:18 where it states the people came to, "hear him AND be healed of their diseseses" Notice it didn't say healed first it's says they' heard first. A great part of Jesus preaching was truths like from Lk 4:18 or Lk 14:15 which showed God's willingness to heal and Lk 11:15 that if you then being evil know how to give good gifts (or blessings) to your children how much more will God do for his children. So he established FAITH within them. Question I asked for the first few years of being a Christian and trust me I"ve heard many, many, many ask the same is why is it that FAITH was so easy for the people in Jesus day when it came to healing.

The answer is Jesus didn't teach people of his day it may or may not be the will of God. He layed it down straight by saying if you have an ox or donkey that needs watering or be shown mercy won't you do it and won't you do it all the time? Lk 14:15 The religious leaders were stunned! Of course they would and they'd do it all the time! Sorry but today it's like religious leaders are saying YES THEY WOULD show mercy to their animals and YES they would do that for humans too, but well....maybe not with God. Which means to say if they really thought through on it that they're saying they're MORE MERCIFUL than God himself. I'd call their position a blasphemy. The reason Jesus brought it up was to SHOW they were NOT more merciful than God and that they should stop thinking that they were. God is willing to heal ALL.

And in some cases, Paul didn't heal at all - e.g. Trophimus.

I know and yes I've read this before. So you've made a theological position on a matter based on one man's experience. But I'm not out to say exactly why Trophimus remained sick. I can't say exactly why but I can preach the word like Paul did when he touched bases on this subject (not speaking of Trophimus exactly but why Christians are sick and remain so generally speaking in 1 Cor 11:30 Or like James did in Jm 1. And we don't even know if that was temporal and maybe he got over it and was healed. You just can't create theological positions of Paul just briefly making mention of what was going on with a dear brother. Consider Job. If you reported at one point of his life you'd say he was physically afflicted. That doesn't mean you're right to imply that lasted forever.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,844
7,967
NW England
✟1,049,776.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And for you to say anyone carrying out the process of what it means to believe (a verb denoting action) and that somehow to you sounds like work....sounds like Calvinism.

Because you used the word "release".
If something needs to be released, that suggests it is trapped; locked up. If WE have to release our faith, that sounds like work - continued prayer, maybe counselling and/or reading boos on faith until we get to the point where you can say, "I have released my faith; I'm ready to be healed."
If that is not what you meant, I apologise; but that's how it came across to me.

It's possible we might have to ask the Lord to release our faith - he came to set us free. It's possible someone might need prayerful support until they get to the point where they can say, "I would like more faith, Lord; I want to be able to trust in in everything."
If the Lord needs to do any releasing he can, and will.

You're refusing to acknowledge it because you're demanding those words, "release your faith" That's just a modern way of saying according to your faith so be it done unto you. problems)

I asked in one post where the concept was taught by Jesus.
You said that God requires faith from us before he can heal. I gave some examples of occasions when he didn't, and asked where his Son needed someone to show their faith before he would heal them. Yes, I know there are passages which say that he could not heal because of their lack of faith - and there are also passages where faith is not even mentioned, only healing.

He set if forth enough time to establish the primary condition.

Yet there were times when he didn't, and he didn't ask about faith.
As I said, I have read of non Christians - i.e people with no faith - being healed.
My own healing was not a matter of having faith, God just did it.

A great part of Jesus preaching was truths like from Lk 4:18 or Lk 14:15 which showed God's willingness to heal and Lk 11:15 that if you then being evil know how to give good gifts (or blessings) to your children how much more will God do for his children.

Luke 11:15 actually says "how much more will my Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

The answer is Jesus didn't teach people of his day it may or may not be the will of God. He layed it down straight by saying if you have an ox or donkey that needs watering or be shown mercy won't you do it and won't you do it all the time? Lk 14:15 The religious leaders were stunned! Of course they would and they'd do it all the time! Sorry but today it's like religious leaders are saying YES THEY WOULD show mercy to their animals and YES they would do that for humans too, but well....maybe not with God. Which means to say if they really thought through on it that they're saying they're MORE MERCIFUL than God himself. I'd call their position a blasphemy. The reason Jesus brought it up was to SHOW they were NOT more merciful than God and that they should stop thinking that they were. God is willing to heal ALL.

The title of your thread is "God has more mercy than man".
Yes, he does; absolutely.
Yet when it comes to healing some men (Christians) show little mercy. They say "you haven't been healed? Well then, you can't have prayed in faith/you must have a secret, unconfessed sin/you must have had ancestors who sinned, were into the occult or whatever", and they teach that the person has to rebuke their illness, make positive confession, believe that they have received even though the symptoms remain etc etc. I'm not saying that you are doing that - or maybe you are, and that is what "release your faith" means.
THAT is not showing mercy to the sick person; it just induces guilt and makes the sufferer feel they are not good enough or have to do more. I know; I've been there and been on the receiving end.
God is merciful - if we pray for physical healing and he says "wait", it's always for a reason. The trouble is that when people want answers about why they haven't been healed, some Christians feel they have to give some kind of answer - instead of maybe saying "well 'wait' is an answer to pray too. Wait on God; he knows what he is doing."

God is willing to heal ALL.

Yes of course.
But the fact is that there are, and have been, many occasions that he doesn't - not immediately and possibly not even in this life.
It also needs to be acknowledged that God has the right to do this; without making it sound like the the lack of healing is the fault of the sick person and they have to do more to receive it.
 
Upvote 0

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
It's possible we might have to ask the Lord to release our faith - he came to set us free. It's possible someone might need prayerful support until they get to the point where they can say, "I would like more faith, Lord; I want to be able to trust in in everything."
If the Lord needs to do any releasing he can, and will.

If I might ask you this. What if you said to a dear loved one, maybe your spouse, "I'd like to have more faith in you! I want to be able to trust you in everything." How would that make them feel. Or if someone said that to you. Wouldn't you feel somewhat insulted? You see you KNOW that by even making such a request it then connects to what they think or don't think about your good gracious character. We wouldn't want a dear loved one who should know better to say that to us....so why would we say that to God?

Remember let's go back to the verse of Luke 17:5 . When the disciples asked the Lord to have their FAITH increased he wasn't all too impressed with their request. He didn't say OK. He said something different, different then what they thought he'd say. He said,

“If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. Lk 17:6

Jesus knew that deep down in their hearts the disciples KNEW and believed that God was a good and had a gracious character. He knew they did have FAITH. And he answered by swinging it around though and saying basically, "OK you're saying you have some faith but you're asking for an increase. OK I'll go with that. But you're not getting something here.

“If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. Lk 17:6

Jesus wasn't even saying they had small faith. He's saying even if that was true that's all you really have your problem ISN'T needing more but learning rather how to use, put it into motion, release it and utilize the faith you've got. You do this by your words and actions but that's something YOU DO. (see Lk 17:6, Mk 11:23, Rom 10:10 and many other verses too)
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,604
3,093
✟215,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Luke 11:15 actually says "how much more will my Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

OK sure, but Matt 7:9,11 expands the details that Luke didn't mention.

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Matt 7:9,11

(I'll try to answer your other points later)

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0