New Info on Numbers 1260, 1290, 1335 and 42

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Does history give us the date in AD 66 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies?

CG, your apparent expertise on this calendar dating system is what I have been looking for on the various Christian forums I frequent, so that I can make sure my dating for this second resurrection at Christ's return on Pentecost day in AD 70 is absolutely correct. Since you have expended so much effort on this subject, I'd like to compare notes, so to speak, even though our eschatological positions are not the same.

When I read Josephus' account of this AD 66 abomination of desolation event, he gives the date when the Roman armies of Cestius came against Jerusalem (as Luke 21:20 predicted) with his 12th legion, and the additional auxiliary forces with him, coming from the kings Antiochus, Agrippa, and Sohemus (Wars 2.18.9). Plural armies coming against Jerusalem, as Luke 21:20 said.

Cestius and his collective armies traveled from Ptolemais through various cities to finally reach Jerusalem. Josephus writes that, after pitching his camp on Mount Scopus, it was "on the fourth day, which was the thirtieth of the month Hyperbereteus [Tisri], when he put his army in array, he brought it into the city." (Wars 2.19.4. 528). The Zealot armies retreated from the suburbs into the inner part of the city, and to the temple. Cestius set on fire the new city section and the timber market, and set his camp up against the royal palace in the upper city section.

For five days, Cestius's army attempted to attack the Temple wall, under a rain of darts and pelting stones - without any success. But the next day, the Roman soldiers braced themselves and their shields against the wall in layered, Testudo fashion as they dug to undermine the walls and prepared for setting fire to the Temple entry gate.

It was at this point that Josephus said, "a horrible fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately." (Wars 2.19.6). For the invading Gentile armies to make actual physical contact during their attack on the walls of the holy temple in their efforts to burn the Temple gate was a profanation of the Jews's "holy place". This is what Christ predicted about Daniel's AOD "standing where it ought not". Josephus presumed that it was the rebellious Zealots fleeing the city, but more than likely it was Jewish Christians in Jerusalem who recognized the sign of fulfillment of the AOD "standing where it ought not", when Christ warned them to immediately drop everything and run for the mountains.

In spite of these favorable conditions for his army, at this critical point when he could have taken Jerusalem in one day, Cestius for no reason whatever (except for God's providence) decided to retreat from the city. His 12th legion in humiliation was defeated by the Zealot armies which gave chase and captured the legion's eagle standard. But while all these armies were outside Jerusalem battling each other as far as Bethoron, any Jewish Christians within Jerusalem were given a brief interlude to flee the city for the mountains, just before the victorious Zealots returned after chasing the remainder of Cestius's armies as far as Antipatris, and closed up the city gates. "This defeat happened on the eighth day of the month Dius [Marhesvan] in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero." (Wars 2.19.9-555).

From historical casualty lists of the entire AD 66-70 conflict compared to the AD 66 Passover census in Jerusalem, we can figure out that approximately 1-1/4 million people took advantage of that brief opportunity to flee Judea and Jerusalem and head for the mountains to wait out the war in distant locations like Pella. The very last page of Usshers "Annals of the World" has these records compiled by a Justus Lipsius.

I believe Daniel's 1290 days probably began from the date of Cestius's soldiers undermining the Temple wall, which counts down until Titus came again with the Roman armies in AD 70, (42 months later), just after AD 70's Passover had begun. Titus timed his attack in AD 70 in order to trap as many Passover celebrants within the besieged city as possible. From that 1290 days' point, 45 days later on the 1335th day, the blessing of the Pentecost-Day resurrection took place at Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, as predicted by Daniel 12:11-13 and Zechariah 14:4-7. Significantly, the "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27 saints was at Passover in AD 33, and this second resurrection was on Pentecost in AD 70. That leaves a final third resurrection for us in the future, timed to fall at the time of year when the Feast of Tabernacles celebration would have ordinarily taken place; the reason why Zechariah 14:16-19 emphasizes this one single Feast to be remembered after the AD 70 siege of Jerusalem was over.

CG, if my calculations are off on these critical numbered days of 1290 and 1335 during these years from AD 66 until AD 70, I would appreciate it if you can either confirm them or give reasonable proof from your calendar studies why they cannot be correct. (Not that you are obligated to make my case for me! ;))
 
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Christian Gedge

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I am one of those who believe in a past fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy for Pentecost on this 1335th day, (which was linked to this luni-solar system of calendar computations you are discussing) … 1,335 days after Jerusalem was surrounded by armies back in AD 66 (the AOD according to Luke 21:20), during a season when a daily sacrifice had just been taken away by the Temple governor, Eleazar, just as Daniel had predicted.

Cestius and his collective armies traveled from Ptolemais through various cities to finally reach Jerusalem. Josephus writes that, after pitching his camp on Mount Scopus, it was "on the fourth day, which was the thirtieth of the month Hperbereteus [Tisri],

I appreciate the work you have done to link the ‘surrounding of Jerusalem’ to Daniel’s 1335 days but astronomical formulas are strict and inflexible. For your scheme to work Josephus needs to say, ”the first of the month Tishri,” not the thirtieth.

For five days, Cestius's army attempted to attack the Temple wall, under a rain of darts and pelting stones - without any success. But the next day, the Roman soldiers braced themselves and their shields against the wall in layered, Testudo fashion as they dug to undermine the walls and prepared for setting fire to the Temple entry gate.

I believe Daniel's 1290 days probably began from the date of Cestius's soldiers undermining the Temple wall, which counts down until Titus came again with the Roman armies in AD 70, (42 months later), just after AD 70's Passover had begun.

So, you have the 1290 days starting early in the month following Tishri AD 66. The old Hebrew calendar strictly counts 1260 (or 1290) from the Day of Atonement to Nisan 1st, AD 70. But let’s get an estimate using astronomical counting?
  1. 1st Marhesvan AD 66 = 1745444.5
  2. 1st Nisan AD 70 (early Passover)= 1746714.5
  3. Deduct the two dates = 1270 days.
Hmm :neutral: not bad, but you may need to stretch the first date back a bit? Let’s now look at the 1335?
  1. 1st Tishri AD 66 = 1745414.5
  2. 6th Sivan AD 70 (Pentecost) = 1746778.5
  3. Deduct the two dates = 1364 days.
An extra moon is inserted. This happens every so often with the long count to Pentecost because sometimes it requires two intercalary years. Sorry I can’t help any more.
 
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I appreciate the work you have done to link the ‘surrounding of Jerusalem’ to Daniel’s 1335 days but astronomical formulas are strict and inflexible. For your scheme to work Josephus needs to say, ”the first of the month Tishri,” not the thirtieth.

Thank you for taking time out to give this some consideration, CG. I'm slow at doing the math, which is why I appreciate better heads than mine on this subject. One thing that has stumped me, (as well as stumping the editors of Ussher's "Annals of the World" when dating the beginning of the war and the subsequent fall of Jerusalem in AD 70) is the differences between Josephus's dates, and those of Niese and Capellus. The editors supplied the different dates for the final destruction of Jerusalem, leaving it up to the reader to decide which was correct. I'm not comfortable leaving it at that, since Daniel 12:11-13 was so precise as to when the blessing on the 1335th day would arrive.

If Josephus was using another dating system, then his dates would be different for the beginning of the 1290 days, and consequently the 1335th day which actually fell on Pentecost (according to the astronomical formulas you give - and which I have a vested interest in also proving to be true). Below is the quote from the editors of Ussher's Annals which leaves us with some confusion for the dates surrounding this period. Perhaps you can clear this up, or give some observations from your studied perspective?

"This war was fully described by Josephus in the later part of the second book and the five following books of his Jewish War. We have taken a summary of this from the abridgement of the Jewish history of that most eminent man, Ludovicus Capellus." (from Ussher's Annals, notes #6932)

Next were the editor's following comments on this:

"(The day and the month given by Josephus appear to conflict with the Loeb footnotes as computed by the modern writer, Niese, and with those given by Capellus, whom Ussher used. The Macedonian months given by Josephus appear to be those in common use in Syria. We listed Josephus' date, as well as the date by Niese and Capellus. However, Niese's dates for then fall of Jerusalem and the burning of the temple do not agree with other ancient writers. Worse he states that the final siege of Jerusalem began on May 1 which was a new moon. This siege happened at the beginning of the Passover, which occurred near the full moon, but never on a new moon. Further, if the Macedonian months referred to actual lunar months, then Niese's dates do not agree with the known lunar cycle. Capellus assumed that Josephus used the Macedonian month names to refer to the twelve Roman Julian months, as was the practice at Antioch. {See note on 3956a AM. <<4870>>} When this is done his dates for the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple agree with ancient writers. The sign in the heavens given by Josephus occurred during the feast of unleavened bread. {See note on 4068b AM. <<6916>>} This fast would occur after the full moon of April 3 for that month. If Niese's date of April 25 is correct, this feast would occur before the full moon which is impossible. We will leave it to the reader to decide who is correct. Editor)

What adds to the confusion of dating the beginning of the 1290 days, Ussher in his subsequent notes # 6940-6941 for the year AD 66 says,

6940 "During the feast of tabernacles, after Cestius Gallus had burned Lydda, he marched toward Jerusalem. About seven or eight miles from there, the men of Jerusalem met him and fought a perilous battle near Bethhoron. When fresh troops arrived for Cestius, he forced the Jews into Jerusalem. On the 4th of the month of Hyperberetaios (Niese: October 17, Capellus: October 4), he broke in and captured the lower part of the city (also known as Bezetha, or the New City and the Timber Market). Then he attacked the temple and the upper city."

(This would have been those five days and the sixth day of attempting to break through the Temple wall, and then undermining it to prepare to burn down the Temple gate, according to Josephus's records, I'm thinking. This is different than Josephus's date of "on the fourth day, which was the thirtieth of the month of Hyperbereteus [Tisri]" when Cestius entered the city. So, was this a typo of Ussher's, or a misdating by Josephus? Ussher's writing would seem to show that it actually was the 1st of Hyperbereteus when Cestius was encamped at Mount Scopus, with his collective armies coming to surround Jerusalem, which is the date you said, CG, that would be necessary for my theory to be correct. After four days of Cestius's army encampment on Mount Scopus, Josephus said he then entered the city. During those four days of encampment on Mount Scopus, news would have filtered to those in Judea of these surrounding armies having arrived at Jerusalem; the AOD sign that alerted the believers to immediately flee to the mountains to avoid the coming disasters, as Christ warned them.)

"He would easily have taken it, had he continued the attack more valiantly, for most of the people favoured the Romans and only the seditious men opposed them. {*Josephus, Jewish War, 1.2.c19.s.1-4. (523-532) 2:521-529} [E900}

6941. When Cestius had almost captured the temple, he raised the siege for no good reason and retreated to Antipatris. Many of the Romans and auxiliary soldiers died on this march who were killed by the pursuing Jews. In their flight, the Romans abandoned most of their baggage, ammunition, engines, slings and other arms. The Jews later made good use of this equipment in their own defence against the siege of Titus. This humiliating retreat happened on the 8th of the month of Dios (Niese: November 25, Capellus: November 8), in the twelfth year of Nero. (That is, the twelfth year was over.) The thirteenth year of Nero had begun on the 13th of the previous October. {*Josephus, Jewish War. 1.2.c.19.s.5-90. (533-555) 2:529-537}


Apologies for the tedium of this comment, CG, but we can see that calendar dates and dating events are difficult, even with the best of eye-witness accounts. However, the rewards of nailing down the proper dates for these prophetic events are very faith-confirming. And I believe scripture gives enough details describing the chronology of events so that we can align them with the calendar accordingly. These events I am convinced God tied to the luni-solar calendar that He originally set up, even from creation, and that were linked to the timing of the OT Jewish festal celebrations, so that we can have a sort of checks and balances to confirm prophetic events. The ingenuity of the mind of God in planning these patterns to unfold over the millennia continues to astound me.
 
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DavidPT

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I appreciate the work you have done to link the ‘surrounding of Jerusalem’ to Daniel’s 1335 days but astronomical formulas are strict and inflexible. For your scheme to work Josephus needs to say, ”the first of the month Tishri,” not the thirtieth.





So, you have the 1290 days starting early in the month following Tishri AD 66. The old Hebrew calendar strictly counts 1260 (or 1290) from the Day of Atonement to Nisan 1st, AD 70. But let’s get an estimate using astronomical counting?
  1. 1st Marhesvan AD 66 = 1745444.5
  2. 1st Nisan AD 70 (early Passover)= 1746714.5
  3. Deduct the two dates = 1270 days.
Hmm :neutral: not bad, but you may need to stretch the first date back a bit? Let’s now look at the 1335?
  1. 1st Tishri AD 66 = 1745414.5
  2. 6th Sivan AD 70 (Pentecost) = 1746778.5
  3. Deduct the two dates = 1364 days.
An extra moon is inserted. This happens every so often with the long count to Pentecost because sometimes it requires two intercalary years. Sorry I can’t help any more.


Close doesn't cut it though. That's the problem with this entire thread. When one uses the formula 1 + 2 + 1/2 =, well it actually does almost equal your proposed 1278. The math comes out to be 1278.2. That might seem close enough. But what happens if one were to multiply that by 50 as opposed to multiplying 1278 by 50, as an example?

63910 days if 1278.2 is multiplied by 50.

63900 days if 1278 is multiplied by 50.

That is a difference of 10 days over the course of 50 of those 1278 days.
 
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DavidPT, perhaps that is why the priesthood was accustomed to watch the skies with such careful attention for the sign of the new moon's appearance in the heavens, in order to begin the schedule for their feast day celebrations accordingly. After all, God ordained those heavenly "clocks" to operate on a strict schedule ever since creation, whether we are correct in our calendar computations or not. This, I believe, is why the entire emphasis was made on the phrase "no man knoweth the day nor the hour", so that generation of believers were to "watch". Watch for what exactly? For "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" - the regular occurrence of the moon's appearance, to which the OT feast-day celebrations were linked, and to which the date for Christ's first-century return was also linked.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Close doesn't cut it though. That's the problem with this entire thread. When one uses the formula 1 + 2 + 1/2 =, well it actually does almost equal your proposed 1278. The math comes out to be 1278.2. That might seem close enough. But what happens if one were to multiply that by 50 as opposed to multiplying 1278 by 50, as an example?

63910 days if 1278.2 is multiplied by 50.

63900 days if 1278 is multiplied by 50.

That is a difference of 10 days over the course of 50 of those 1278 days.
Yes, the decimal point accumulates so an occasional 1279 days is needed. I did not want to over complicate our discussion here. My point is still valid though. A solar count of 31/2 years always arrives at the Day of Atonement.
 
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CG, the 7 years begins when the Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. We don't know for certain when during the calendar year he will do that (because in Daniel 7 he tries to change the times and seasons).

But if he does follow Moses instructions, he will do it (have the law read from the place of God's choosing which the Jews take to be the temple mount - to the nation) it will be on the feast of tabernacles.

Deuteronomy 31: 9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.


The law that Moses created that day was that on the feast of tabernacles, the leaders of Israel would read to the nation what Moses said in verses 1-8.

In verse 1-8, Moses stressed that God gave the land the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever, and to obey the commandments Moses gave them - and that God would not fail them, nor forsake them in verse 8.

Moses was the first to confirm the Covenant that God made with them on Mt. Sinai.
____________________________________________

Obviously cannot be done from the temple mount under current situation with the Muslim presence on the Temple Mount, and the dispute over Israel's possession of the land.

So it will be after Gog/Magog. Which the 7 years are in Ezekiel 39, following Gog/Magog.
Your claiming that the old covenant is still valid.
In verse 1-8, Moses stressed that God gave the land the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever, and to obey the commandments Moses gave them - and that God would not fail them, nor forsake them in verse 8.
We know that in the New Testament the old covenant was obsolete. Hence, the house of Israel was left desolate.

The physical land of old covenant Israel has not existed for 2000 years.

The physical land of the old covenant is not forever.

You must read the text in a spiritual way, a spiritual interpretation.
 
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DavidPT, perhaps that is why the priesthood was accustomed to watch the skies with such careful attention for the sign of the new moon's appearance in the heavens, in order to begin the schedule for their feast day celebrations accordingly. After all, God ordained those heavenly "clocks" to operate on a strict schedule ever since creation, whether we are correct in our calendar computations or not. This, I believe, is why the entire emphasis was made on the phrase "no man knoweth the day nor the hour", so that generation of believers were to "watch". Watch for what exactly? For "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" - the regular occurrence of the moon's appearance, to which the OT feast-day celebrations were linked, and to which the date for Christ's first-century return was also linked.


I think what the problem is in my case, even though I'm interested in this topic, probably for different reasons, mostly having to do with prophecies involving time, times, and the dividing of time, 1260 days, 42 months, 1290 days, and 1335 days, CG is clearly at a level way above a level I'm at. He desrves to be at that level if he has invested this much time and study into some of these things. But when he mentions things, such as, if we follow the moons, well that is nothing I have ever done nor have had a desire to do. I'm not claiming it is not Biblical. It just means I don't share some of the same interests to the same degree that he does. I'm mainly interested in endtimes and prophecies relating to that. And in my mind, a time, times, and the dividing of time, 1260 days, 42 months, 1290 days, and 1335 days, this involves prophecies having to do with endtimes. In my mind, take the 1335th day, for instance. In that context, in Daniel 12 that is meaning the last day of this age and to get to the last day of this age, that involves making it through the 1260-1290 days that precede it.
 
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Douggg

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Your claiming that the old covenant is still valid.
I am claiming how the Antichrist, perceived messiah to the Jews, who believe in the Mt. Sinai covenant, will begin the 7 years. The Antichrist of course is not theologically correct and he will be against any claim that Jesus was/is the messiah.

In similitude, the abomination of desolation is certainly not correct theologically, but in terms of bible prophecy events it will be something that will happen.

Theologically correct and bible prophecy events - certainly clash with one another on many levels.

We know that in the New Testament the old covenant was obsolete. Hence, the house of Israel was left desolate.

The physical land of old covenant Israel has not existed for 2000 years.

The physical land of the old covenant is not forever.

You must read the text in a spiritual way, a spiritual interpretation.
Jesus in Matthew 23, the last several verses, was actually talking about Jerusalem and the temple being Jerusalem's house.

In our life time, we have witnessed Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, and Israel a nation again in the land, not divided north and south.

Forever? God is the Forever, I Am that I AM, which being attached to Him, in Christ, is how we are forever. He is our inheritance. Nothing else really matters.
 
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In my mind, take the 1335th day, for instance. In that context, in Daniel 12 that is meaning the last day of this age and to get to the last day of this age, that involves making it through the 1260-1290 days that precede it

But DavidPT, that particular period of 1335 days Daniel 12:11 said would begin by two things taking place concurrently (#1, the AOD, or "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which would take place during #2, a season when a daily sacrifice in the temple had been taken away). The 1335 days would then count down until the second coming of Christ and the second resurrection. These are very particular events Daniel was describing. Every one of Daniel's prophecies were all finished by the time the temple (the Jews' "sanctuary of strength") was torn down to the last stone in AD 70, and the power of the holy people was completely shattered (Daniel 12:7).

This 1335th day is not the last day of this current age. It concerned the last days of those past ages ending in the first century - "upon whom the ends of the ages are come", as Paul said of his days (1 Corinthians 10:11).

As far as our prophetic future is concerned, the timing of the new moons can still have significance in providing clues for the culmination of fallen man's history on this planet at the end of the New Covenant Ages. This in spite of the fact that the ceremonial Mosaic laws under the Old Covenant have made way for the more glorious New Covenant. The creation-established lunar-solar patterns are still there for us to track, this time joined to the revealed spiritual significance of what those OC festivals really portrayed, as klutedavid emphasized above...

You must read the text in a spiritual way, a spiritual interpretation
 
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Douggg

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But DavidPT, that particular period of 1335 days Daniel 12:11 said would begin by two things taking place concurrently (#1, the AOD, or "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which would take place during #2, a season when a daily sacrifice in the temple had been taken away). The 1335 days would then count down until the second coming of Christ and the second resurrection. These are very particular events Daniel was describing. Every one of Daniel's prophecies were all finished by the time the temple (the Jews' "sanctuary of strength") was torn down to the last stone in AD 70, and the power of the holy people was completely shattered (Daniel 12:7).
The 1290 days and 1335th day was not in 70 AD.

Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies in Zechariah 14:2 in the time frame between the 1290 days and the 1335th day... as they prepare to make war on Jesus.

The AoD will be the image of the beast, with said image incarnated by Satan, and on the temple mount courtyard.


upload_2021-12-20_20-16-59.jpeg
 
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The AoD will be the image of the beast, with said image incarnated by Satan, and on the temple mount courtyard.

Luke by inspiration interpreted Daniel's AoD otherwise in Luke 21:20. It's very simple. "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which first took place in AD 66 - not AD 70. This AoD / setting up of the armies against Jerusalem in Daniel 12:11 had to be taking place at the very same season when a daily sacrifice had been taken away, which Josephus confirms took place in AD 66. Eleazar the Temple governor had convinced the priesthood to cancel the daily sacrifice for Ceasar and the empire early that year. Josephus wrote that this affront to Rome was the true cause of the Jewish / Roman war.

You are mixing up the AoD with the Land Beast's required mark including the making of an image giving homage to the Sea Beast. They are not the same thing. The mark and the graven image giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast began back in 19 BC, with the high priesthood requiring everyone making sales and purchases in the Temple to use nothing but the Tyrian shekel imitation coins minted in Jerusalem. These coins had forbidden pagan images of the demi-god Herakles and profane inscriptions lauding the idol-worshipping city "Tyre the holy and city of refuge". On the reverse side were the stamped initials acknowledging Rome's power and authorization - a constant, irritating reminder to the Jews of just who had the ultimate control of their Temple. The fees charged at the Temple for exchanging any foreign currency for this required Tyrian shekel were extremely lucrative for the corrupt high priesthood. "Den of thieves" indeed.

I couldn't even begin to come up with the graphic designs you have for your paradigm, Douggg, but unfortunately, as creative as they are, they are off base in their fulfillment of scripture predictions.
 
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Douggg

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Luke by inspiration interpreted Daniel's AoD otherwise in Luke 21:20. It's very simple
Luke 21:20 is about the desolation of Jerusalem.

The abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 is associated with the temple being made desolate from praise and worship of the One True God. And is something "setup".
And Jesus said in Matthew 24 "standing" in a holy place.

I agree with you about the daily sacrifice taken away in conjunction with the abomination of desolation.
You are mixing up the AoD with the Land Beast's required mark including the making of an image giving homage to the Sea Beast.
The image of the beast (it will be a statue) is what the AoD will be, that by Satanic deceptive miracle will appear to come to life and speak.

The mark (of the beast's name < important to note Revelation 14:11) will be a required identifion in order for people to buy and sell. Either the mark of the beast's name, or the name of the beast, or the number of the beast's name.

The mark and the graven image giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast began back in 19 BC, with the high priesthood requiring everyone making sales and purchases in the Temple to use nothing but the Tyrian shekel imitation coins minted in Jerusalem. These coins had forbidden pagan images of the demi-god Herakles
The requirement is that the mark of the beast's name (or the number of his name, or the beast name) be on a person's right hand or forehead.

And it is going to be global to all them who dwell upon the earth, Revelation 13:16.
 
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Luke 21:20 is about the desolation of Jerusalem.

It is...and Luke's inspired definition of the AoD was that it would take surrounding armies to do this.

The abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11-12 is associated with the temple being made desolate from praise and worship of the One True God. And is something "setup".
And Jesus said in Matthew 24 "standing" in a holy place.

An actively hostile army encamped or "set up" around a city (not a lifeless statue which can't surround anything) is what can truly desolate a location of its resources. And Daniel 11:31 already gave a definition of the AoD in Antiochus' day as a time when "Arms shall stand on his part" and pollute the temple, the "sanctuary of strength". I'm sure you have heard of a "standing army" before.

The entire city of Jerusalem was called a "holy city" which had become "a desolation" by the Babylonian army back in Isaiah 64:10 (Jerusalem's first death in 586 BC, which would again be desolated by an AoD in its "second death" in AD 70).

The image of the beast (it will be a statue) is what the AoD will be, that by Satanic deceptive miracle will appear to come to life and speak.

A graven image need not be a statue. It was an abominable image of the Roman demi-god Hercules, stamped on that Temple-required, imitation Tyrian shekel coin which was placed in a person's right hand in exchange for a Temple worshipper's foreign currency and an onerous fee. Women also wore a set of these Tyrian shekel coins on the forehead of their headdress, denoting their marital status. Rich or poor, of whatever nationality that came to Jerusalem's temple for celebrations and worship, all were required to use only this Tyrian shekel coin when they bought or sold sacrificial offerings. Unless you were a named ruler of the Roman Sea Beast empire itself with its numbered 666-year history.

This image "speaking" which gave homage to the Sea Beast is probably no more literal than the faith of Abel; that "he being dead yet speaketh" in Hebrews 11:4. Later on, the blood of Christ "spoke better things" than the blood of Abel (Hebrews 12:24). This image "speaking" is just another repetition of the Sea Beast "who was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies" (Revelation 13:5). This "speaking" has more to do with exercising great power and influence the immediate context.

The use of that required image was the controlling tool of the high priesthood, who were able to put anybody under a lethal "ban" who did not cooperate with their program of subservience to Rome (the current face of the Sea Beast in those days). No support of a person or their livelihood was allowed to anyone who fell under the high priesthood's displeasure. They were "cast out of the synagogue" and shunned. The "fear of the Jews" (the False Prophet / Land Beast) was keeping the entire population under control in those first-century days - everyone from the blind man's parents up to many of the Jewish leaders (John 9:22, John 12:42).

And this mark actually was a "global" requirement, since everyone coming from whatever nation to Jerusalem to worship in the Temple was required to use only this single, Tyrian shekel coin in their transactions. We know on the day of Pentecost, for example, that there was a list of multi-national worshippers who were all hearing the words of God in their own nation's language (Acts 1:8-11). All of these at that time were also required to be using that abominable Jerusalem copy of the Tyrian shekel, which was clearly against God's commandments on this abomination, back in Deuteronomy 7:25-26.
 
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Douggg

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An actively hostile army encamped or "set up" around a city (not a lifeless statue which can't surround anything) is what can truly desolate a location of its resources. And Daniel 11:31 already gave a definition of the AoD in Antiochus' day as a time when "Arms shall stand on his part" and pollute the temple, the "sanctuary of strength". I'm sure you have heard of a "standing army" before.
Antiochus's action to place a statue of Zeus in the temple prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation will be.
 
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Antiochus's action to place a statue of Zeus in the temple prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation will be.


While I agree that is true, what AE did involved a literal brick and mortar temple. Currently there is no longer a literal brick and mortar temple for these things to be fulfilled in, and even if there was a literal brick and mortar temple standing, it makes zero sense that an AOD would be involving a useless temple. The AOD is clearly meaning in the end of this age though, therefore it has to be interpreted spiritually not literally.
 
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Douggg

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While I agree that is true, what AE did involved a literal brick and mortar temple. Currently there is no longer a literal brick and mortar temple for these things to be fulfilled in, and even if there was a literal brick and mortar temple standing, it makes zero sense that an AOD would be involving a useless temple. The AOD is clearly meaning in the end of this age though, therefore it has to be interpreted spiritually not literally.
David, it must be literal because Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it standing in a holy place.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Antiochus's action to place a statue of Zeus in the temple prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation will be.

Again, Luke by inspiration in Luke 21:20 did not mention anything at all about a statue being placed in Jerusalem's temple which would desolate the holy place. Luke interpreted "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" as the fulfillment of Daniel's AoD. This is what would cause "desolation" of the physical temple in Luke's future (not ours). The presence of this AD 66 abomination composed of armies surrounding Jerusalem "standing where it ought not", were a replica of Antiochus's army which "polluted the sanctuary of strength" just by their hostile presence. And it would be that strength of the sanctuary - the "power of the holy people" - which would be shattered in AD 70 (Daniel 12:7), bringing to fulfillment Daniel's vision of prophesied "wonders" from Daniel 10:4 until the end of Daniel 12. These would all conclude by the time that sanctuary of strength was torn down to the last stone.

You might wish to drag out those "Days of Vengeance" to extend for 2,000 years and counting, but God is not that vindictive. His justice (and the Jews' self-imposed curse) demanded punishment on that single generation who betrayed and murdered His Son. However, once vengeance was taken on that guilty generation who had called down a blood curse on themselves and their children, God did not extend that exact kind of predicted tribulations and retributions further down the road to later generations.
 
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DavidPT

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David, it must be literal because Jesus told them in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see it standing in a holy place.


I admit I don't know what to do with that part if taking these things spiritually. But I also don't know what to do if taking things in the literal sense if involving the end of this age and a literal temple being meant.

Christians wouldn't be concerned about literal temples in Jerusalem in the 21st century. Your solution to that, Christians won't even be here, thus the rapture preceding these things. For someone who thinks they won't even be here during these times, you sure seem to have a lot to say about these times none of us are allegedly going to experience to begin with. If the church is gone before the middle of the 70th week commences, why discuss things that wouldn't even be relevant to anyone here? Shouldn't you be discussing things like that with unbelieving Jews instead? Isn't that who you basically think these things will be involving?
 
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Zao is life

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I am claiming how the Antichrist, perceived messiah to the Jews, who believe in the Mt. Sinai covenant, will begin the 7 years. The Antichrist of course is not theologically correct and he will be against any claim that Jesus was/is the messiah.

In similitude, the abomination of desolation is certainly not correct theologically, but in terms of bible prophecy events it will be something that will happen.

Theologically correct and bible prophecy events - certainly clash with one another on many levels.

Jesus in Matthew 23, the last several verses, was actually talking about Jerusalem and the temple being Jerusalem's house.

In our life time, we have witnessed Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, and Israel a nation again in the land, not divided north and south.

Forever? God is the Forever, I Am that I AM, which being attached to Him, in Christ, is how we are forever. He is our inheritance. Nothing else really matters.
The problem with assuming that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 are referring to a physical temple in Jerusalem is that both verses use the Greek word naos for "temple", which is important:

The two Greek words used in reference to the Temple of God in the gospels:
1. naos
2. hieron

Thayer's definition of the Greek word naos:

1. Used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

2. Any heathen temple or shrine

3. Metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

The BIG problem with assuming that naos in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 refers to a temple in Jerusalem is that in the New Testament, the word naos stops being used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the verses talking about the tearing of the veil between the holy place and the holy of holies. (Although the word appears three times in Acts, but it is not used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem):- Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24; Acts 19:24

The following page makes this abundantly clear:

(See also Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org)

So after the verses taking about the tearing of the veil, in the New Testament the word naos is ONLY used in reference to the bodies of believers as a temple, the church as the temple, and the temple in heaven (1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & 6:19; 2 Corinthains 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:19, 14:15 & 17, 15:5-6 & 8, 16:1 & 17, 21:22).

The problem with assuming that "the holy city" in Revelation 11:2 is referring to Jerusalem on earth is that NEW Jersusalem is called the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and 22:19 (three times), and it's not very likely that the same passage in the Revelation would call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" AND "Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11).

The above is the problem with assuming that the temple spoken of in Revelation 11:1-2 is a temple in Jerusalem. The Greek word used implies that it is not. It's symbolic language being used, and it's a repeat of the information given in Revelation 13:7. The temple being 'measured' is the same as counting the sheep.
 
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