There is no such thing as a "rapture" for believers!!

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

eleos1954 said: ↑
Nope. The very moment one believes in Christ for salvation (saving faith) the person POSSESSES eternal life (John 5:24) and therefore shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28). And the Bible tells us believers are born AGAIN, which is the NEW birth, or regeneration.

So, ALL believers posses eternal life the MOMENT they believe.

Guojing said:
If you believe that is what John meant in John 5:24

Hold on a sec. What John wrote in Jn 5:24 and 10:28 is PLAIN AS DAY. If you think he meant something else, prove it please with exegesis, not eisegesis.

when you come to 1 John, those passages that indicate conditional salvation based on works, do you think John was contradicting himself?

Um, how about just quoting the verse you think teach that? That would be a start.

I've been reading through the NT monthly for about 2 decades, and I've NEVER seen what you are claiming. So show your evidence if you have any.

All you are doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture. Not cool.

for example

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

OK, thanks for an "example". What so many people don't understand, is that the word "abide" is a word about fellowship. iow, believers who maintain fellowship with the Lord WILL have confidence and not be ashamed at His coming.

The flip side is those who didn't maintain fellowship will be quite ashamed when He comes.

But the verse says nothing about losing salvation or conditions to maintain salvation.

In fact, just read John 15:1-7. Jesus was teadhing His disciples that in order to bear fruit, they must ADIBE in Him. Again, that's fellowship, not relationship. And way too many people have no idea what that means.

The parable of the prodigal is all about fellowship between a father and son. The relationship remained throughout the parable, but fellowship was broken at the beginning and restored at the end. When the son was out of fellowship, the father described that as being dead and lost. Has nothing to do with one's salvation status. The son knew where he was (in a pig sty) and the son hadn't died physically.

When the son "came to his senses" he repented of his actions and confessed his sin against his father and returned to him. The father in grace welcomed his son back. Fellowship was restored.

Too many people have spiritualized this parable to be about salvation and they have led too many peple astray.

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Too bad you left out v.9. So I'm going to add that one in.

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

I added v.9 because it is the key to the other verses.

being "born of God" refers to the RE-generated human spirit. This is where the Holy Spirit resides. And this new nature is sinless. The person CANNOT sin from this nature.

However, since believers still have their sinful fleshly nature, they can continue to sin from that nature.

So the challenge is to spend as much time as you can living from the new nature, which means to be "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and "walk by the Spirit" (Gal 5:16).

That is what the verses are about.

If these verses mean what you think they mean, then you have a real big problem with John 5:24 and 10:28, which are crystal clear.

So take your pick. YOUR opinion about 1 John's verses, or what Jesus was quoted as saying. And real clearly, too.

I reject your opinion about 1 John and I accept what Jesus said. Real clearly.

This is a no-brainer.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

Guojing said:
thanks for confirming that you believe Matthew 24, that verse, was referring to physical salvation. We can agree to disagree there.

Would you agree that you interpret scripture based on covenant theology?

No, I wouldn't agree to that. Covenant theology is Calvinism. They don't read Scripture acurately either.

And, just to make clear, I'm no Arminian either. They don't read Scripture correctly either.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I wouldn't agree to that. Covenant theology is Calvinism. They don't read Scripture acurately either.

And, just to make clear, I'm no Arminian either. They don't read Scripture correctly either.

When I say Covenant Theology, I mean their doctrine on the covenant of grace being in all parts of the bible since Genesis 3:15

What is Covenant Theology? | GotQuestions.org

which is what you are saying since you believe whether in Jesus first coming, current time period we are living in, and the coming Tribulation, is all the same covenant of grace.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
eleos1954 said: ↑
Nope. The very moment one believes in Christ for salvation (saving faith) the person POSSESSES eternal life (John 5:24) and therefore shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28). And the Bible tells us believers are born AGAIN, which is the NEW birth, or regeneration.

So, ALL believers posses eternal life the MOMENT they believe.

Hold on a sec. What John wrote in Jn 5:24 and 10:28 is PLAIN AS DAY. If you think he meant something else, prove it please with exegesis, not eisegesis.

Um, how about just quoting the verse you think teach that? That would be a start.

I've been reading through the NT monthly for about 2 decades, and I've NEVER seen what you are claiming. So show your evidence if you have any.

All you are doing is pitting Scripture against Scripture. Not cool.

OK, thanks for an "example". What so many people don't understand, is that the word "abide" is a word about fellowship. iow, believers who maintain fellowship with the Lord WILL have confidence and not be ashamed at His coming.

The flip side is those who didn't maintain fellowship will be quite ashamed when He comes.

But the verse says nothing about losing salvation or conditions to maintain salvation.

In fact, just read John 15:1-7. Jesus was teadhing His disciples that in order to bear fruit, they must ADIBE in Him. Again, that's fellowship, not relationship. And way too many people have no idea what that means.

The parable of the prodigal is all about fellowship between a father and son. The relationship remained throughout the parable, but fellowship was broken at the beginning and restored at the end. When the son was out of fellowship, the father described that as being dead and lost. Has nothing to do with one's salvation status. The son knew where he was (in a pig sty) and the son hadn't died physically.

When the son "came to his senses" he repented of his actions and confessed his sin against his father and returned to him. The father in grace welcomed his son back. Fellowship was restored.

Too many people have spiritualized this parable to be about salvation and they have led too many peple astray.

Too bad you left out v.9. So I'm going to add that one in.

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

I added v.9 because it is the key to the other verses.

being "born of God" refers to the RE-generated human spirit. This is where the Holy Spirit resides. And this new nature is sinless. The person CANNOT sin from this nature.

However, since believers still have their sinful fleshly nature, they can continue to sin from that nature.

So the challenge is to spend as much time as you can living from the new nature, which means to be "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and "walk by the Spirit" (Gal 5:16).

That is what the verses are about.

If these verses mean what you think they mean, then you have a real big problem with John 5:24 and 10:28, which are crystal clear.

So take your pick. YOUR opinion about 1 John's verses, or what Jesus was quoted as saying. And real clearly, too.

I reject your opinion about 1 John and I accept what Jesus said. Real clearly.

This is a no-brainer.

Actually I was asking someone else other than you.

I know how you will answer already since you are adopting a covenant theology perspective towards scripture, as I have said to you in the post above this.

The way you interpret those passages from 1 John will naturally follow that perspective.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
How sad. Because the Bible doesn't anymore.

1 Cor 12:13 - For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free —and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Col 3:11 - Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

There is absollutely NO REASON to separate any believer from any other believer.

In fact, Paul referred to the resurrection of the saved this way:

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So to be very clear, "those who belong to Him" mean EVERY believer (saved person) from Adam on.

Paul himself refutes your ideas in 1 Cor 15:23.

Since the Bible plainly teaches that there will be just a SINGLE resurrection of the saved, and that will occur at the Second Advent, there will be NO pretrib resurrection or rapture.

Please quote ANY verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Thank you.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, you are correct,

But Israel consists of only those of the physical circumcision.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

Guojing said:
When I say Covenant Theology, I mean their doctrine on the covenant of grace being in all parts of the bible since Genesis 3:15

What is Covenant Theology? | GotQuestions.org

which is what you are saying since you believe whether in Jesus first coming, current time period we are living in, and the coming Tribulation, is all the same covenant of grace.

First, I don't believe that grace is in a "covenant". Covenants generally involve 2 parties, with each party having responsibilities.

Regarding salvation, man has no responsibilities to maintain.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

I don't see any covenant here. I see God's grace offering salvation to all people.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

I don't see any covenant here either.

Everything God does for man is based on grace.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

Guojing said:
Actually I was asking someone else other than you.

I know how you will answer already since you are adopting a covenant theology perspective towards scripture, as I have said to you in the post above this.

I am NOT.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

Guojing said:
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, you are correct,

But Israel consists of only those of the physical circumcision.

That would refer to unbelieving Jews then. All Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah become one of "those who belong to Him" and WILL BE in the single resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

That means every saved person from Adam forward.

eleos1954 · Dec 20, 2021

Guojing said:
If you believe that is what John meant in John 5:24, when you come to 1 John, those passages that indicate conditional salvation based on works, do you think John was contradicting himself?

for example

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This was a post in error ... sometimes my copy and paste don't work properly sorry ... so I removed it sorry.

Salvation is NOT based on works.

eleos1954 · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you even bother with what idiots teach? Since the Bible says nothing about "torture", why bother yourself about what these weird people claim?

Please, just drop this "torture" nonsense. Focus on what the Word says. Not what strange people say.

The words "soul sleep" is not found in the Bible.

I showed you Rev 6:9 and the opening of the 5th seal. We see "souls of those slain because od their testimony (martyrs) and they were calling out with a loud voice (shouting)".

Why do you continue to hold onto an unbiblical theory about "soul sleep"?

btw, Jesus gave us a glimpse of "life" in the afterlife in the OT times. Where believers went to Abraham's Bosom, also called Paradise, and unbelievers went to Torments. Both compartments are in Hades (Sheol).

Luke 16:19-31 is the account of a poor man called Lazarus and a rich man. Since actual names are used, plus Abraham himself, it is NOT a parable. It is an account of 2 men known by the people of Jerusalem. In the account, both men die, with Lazarus going to Paradise and the rich man to Torments. They have conversations. The rich man even asks Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his 5 brothers so they would avoid Torments.

This is real life. Jesus gave an account of the afterlife whether you like it or not.

I soundly reject your notions about soul sleep.

Why isn't it obvious that God was speaking about his body. Adam went to Paradise.

Our bodies are corrupt ... we get new bodies when He returns.

The tree of immortal life was removed from the garden my friend at the fall.

Genesis 3:22

Christian Standard Bible
The LORD God said, “Since the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.”

no His Word says Adam returned to dust.

Genesis 3:19, NIV: "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.'"

well ... people should take some time and study out whether we are ... or are not immortal and I encourage them to do so

We become immortal only through God's grace in accepting the gift of His Son.

Immortality is conditional because there is no eternal life except through Jesus Christ and the eternal life He offers us. It is something we receive potentially when we accept Christ as our personal Saviour and are "remade" by the Holy Spirit.

Immortality becomes our actual possession only at the second coming of Christ. In this sense, immortality for the Christian is both a present reality (we have assurance) and a future gain (the actual when He returns).

Matthew 9:24
He said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.

Many still laughing.

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23).

When? at His coming.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Our bodies are corrupt ... we get new bodies when He returns.

Can't wait.

The tree of immortal life was removed from the garden my friend at the fall.

All souls will exist forever.

Genesis 3:22

Christian Standard Bible
The LORD God said, “Since the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.”

no His Word says Adam returned to dust.

What would be his body. Read Gen 2:7. His body was composed of dust.

Genesis 3:19, NIV: "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.'"

Simply a reference to his physical body.

well ... people should take some time and study out whether we are ... or are not immortal and I encourage them to do so

Do you believe in annihilationism?

We become immortal only through God's grace in accepting the gift of His Son.

Refers to the body. Not the soul.

Immortality is conditional because there is no eternal life except through Jesus Christ and the eternal life He offers us. It is something we receive potentially when we accept Christ as our personal Saviour and are "remade" by the Holy Spirit.

You are in error. We don't receive eternal life "potentially" when we believe in Christ as Savior. We absolutely POSSESS eternal life. No "potentiality" about it.

Immortality becomes our actual possession only at the second coming of Christ.

Do you not believe what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The gift of eternal life is possessed WHEN a person believes in Christ.

In this sense, immortality for the Christian is both a present reality (we have assurance) and a future gain (the actual when He returns).

No, we have the actual gift NOW because Jesus said so.

Matthew 9:24
He said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.

Many still laughing.

Jesus was using figures of speech. He did that a lot.

Eccl 12:7 - English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

So, explain the sleeping soul that returns to God when the person dies.

eleos1954 · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Can't wait.

All souls will exist forever.

What would be his body. Read Gen 2:7. His body was composed of dust.

Simply a reference to his physical body.

Do you believe in annihilationism?

Refers to the body. Not the soul.

You are in error. We don't receive eternal life "potentially" when we believe in Christ as Savior. We absolutely POSSESS eternal life. No "potentiality" about it.

Do you not believe what Jesus said in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The gift of eternal life is possessed WHEN a person believes in Christ.

No, we have the actual gift NOW because Jesus said so.

Jesus was using figures of speech. He did that a lot.

Eccl 12:7 - English Standard Version

and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

So, explain the sleeping soul that returns to God when the person dies.

spirit is the breath of life .... and that is what returns to God.

animals have the same breath of life.

evidentially you believe in OSAS?

Seems everything is a figure of speech if it don't fit into your theology.

He has the power of resurrection and all will be resurrected one day that is why HE calls death a sleep.

This is VERY clear

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Matthew 27:52
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised

This immortal spirit idea makes no biblical sense .... that teaching is right out of Egypt (and before that the devil himself ... ie ... You will not surely die)
Why should we seek immortality if we already have it?
(Romans 2:7)

1 Timothy 6:16. Here we learn that God “only hath immortality”. This final text settles the matter, and explains clearly why we are exhorted to “seek” immortality, and why we are told that immortality is something that is to be “put on” “at the last trump.”

Only God has immortality at this time and will give immortality to the saints at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15:53. This passage tells us when we shall receive immortality. The time is “at the last trump”. Then, “this mortal must put on immortality”. Why should the apostle Paul speak of our putting on immortality at the future if we already possess it?

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2021

eleos1954 said:
spirit is the breath of life .... and that is what returns to God.

That is the soul. Neshemah.

animals have the same breath of life.

Don't kid yourself. It's not the same. Maybe you got confused because of Disney's movie, "All dogs go to heaven" or something.

evidentially you believe in OSAS?

In the strongest of terms.

Seems everything is a figure of speech if it don't fit into your theology.

Seems you have a lot of erroneous thoughts.

He has the power of resurrection and all will be resurrected one day that is why HE calls death a sleep.

No, that's not why.

I gave you ACTUAL EVIDENCE from Scripture about martyrs in heaven shouting for revenge. But, go ahead and argue they were STILL ASLEEP. I dare you.

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

Pause.......

These who are described as "have fallen asleep in Him" are brought with Jesus from heaven. Got it? Good. Now, keep paying attention.

Rev 19-
1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3 And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!”
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!”
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

It is these people that are referred to in 1 Thess 4:14. Now, just try to argue that these who are "making themselves ready" are still asleep. I dare you.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Pause.....

How can the "dead in Christ be the first to RISE" SINCE they are already in heaven and shouting, no less??? But of course, you can't answer this.

Nor can you explain the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Figures of speech, OBVIOUSLY.

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

So you think the souls of people who have died remain in tombs, where their physical bodies are rotting away? Seriously??

Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Matthew 27:52
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised

This immortal spirit idea makes no biblical sense .... that teaching is right out of Egypt (and before that the devil himself ... ie ... You will not surely die)
Why should we seek immortality if we already have it?

Even unbelievers' souls will exist forever in the lake of fire. I think you are just over-reacting the idea of "immortality".

eleos1954 · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That is the soul. Neshemah.

Don't kid yourself. It's not the same. Maybe you got confused because of Disney's movie, "All dogs go to heaven" or something.

In the strongest of terms.

Seems you have a lot of erroneous thoughts.

No, that's not why.

I gave you ACTUAL EVIDENCE from Scripture about martyrs in heaven shouting for revenge. But, go ahead and argue they were STILL ASLEEP. I dare you.

Pause.......

These who are described as "have fallen asleep in Him" are brought with Jesus from heaven. Got it? Good. Now, keep paying attention.

Rev 19-
1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”
3 And again they shouted: “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”
4 The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: “Amen, Hallelujah!”
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both great and small!”
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

It is these people that are referred to in 1 Thess 4:14. Now, just try to argue that these who are "making themselves ready" are still asleep. I dare you.

Pause.....

How can the "dead in Christ be the first to RISE" SINCE they are already in heaven and shouting, no less??? But of course, you can't answer this.

Nor can you explain the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.

Figures of speech, OBVIOUSLY.

So you think the souls of people who have died remain in tombs, where their physical bodies are rotting away? Seriously??

Even unbelievers' souls will exist forever in the lake of fire. I think you are just over-reacting the idea of "immortality".

Not everything is His Word is a figure of speech as you consistently put forth to justify your theology.

obviously we disagree ... like I said others can and should study it out for themselves.
ie ... soul ... what is it? soul ... is it immortal?

This simple thing I know ... God says He is the only one who is immortal and I believe it.

Consciousness ceases at death. Only through a resurrection to life will consciousness return.

so I agree to disagree and move on rather than accepting "figurative" where it suits your theological belief.

I pray the Lord will lead those who choose to study this matter further. Amen.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

eleos1954 said:
This was a post in error ... sometimes my copy and paste don't work properly sorry ... so I removed it sorry.

Salvation is NOT based on works.

Salvation is always by faith alone, no one is saying otherwise.

But it does not mean that works were not required in time past, in order to show your faith in God. Hebrews 11 have all the examples.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That would refer to unbelieving Jews then. All Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah become one of "those who belong to Him" and WILL BE in the single resurrection of the saved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

That means every saved person from Adam forward.

As I said, you are always anticipating revelation. You take doctrine meant for the Body of Christ, and you try to read it into all scripture.

Guojing · Dec 20, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
First, I don't believe that grace is in a "covenant". Covenants generally involve 2 parties, with each party having responsibilities.

Regarding salvation, man has no responsibilities to maintain.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

I don't see any covenant here. I see God's grace offering salvation to all people.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

I don't see any covenant here either.

Everything God does for man is based on grace.

Yes, us in the Body of Christ are saved, not thru any covenants. I agree with you.

But it does not mean Israel will be saved in the same way. Their New Covenant, as stated in Hebrews 8:8-11 is coming to them at Jesus's 2nd coming.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 21, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Not everything is His Word is a figure of speech as you consistently put forth to justify your theology.

Please read my posts BEFORE making these bogus claims.

I've never even suggested that "everything" is a figure of speech. But it does take some discernment to know what is and what isn't a figure of speech.

Consciousness ceases at death. Only through a resurrection to life will consciousness return.

And yet, you have absolutely zero evidence from Scripture.

And, I have proven that those who have died are talking (Rev 6) and preparing for the wedding supper (Rev 19).

So please leave your opinions out of this. If you don't have clear verses that support your claims, then just don't claim.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 21, 2021

Guojing said:
As I said, you are always anticipating revelation.

You mean that you DON'T look forward to the future??? Why not?

You take doctrine meant for the Body of Christ, and you try to read it into all scripture.

You give a lot of opinion.

1 Cor 15:23 totally refutes your opinion. The single resurrection of the saved includes "those who belong to Him".

So, let me ask you something. If you take this phrase as ONLY "body of Christ", why don't believers from other times, from Adam on, belong to Him?

Please explain that.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 21, 2021

Guojing said:
Yes, us in the Body of Christ are saved, not thru any covenants. I agree with you.

Well, please hold that "agreement". It seems you think ONLY the Body of Christ are saved by grace, and not thru any covenants.

Haven't you read carefully through Acts? Or maybe you have but just don't understand what Paul said about his own ministry.

But it does not mean Israel will be saved in the same way.

It sure does.

Acts 9-
19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.
20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

Acts 8:35 - Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

Acts 17-
2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

Acts 18:28 - For he (Apollos) vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 26-
22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen —
23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Rom 1-
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God — 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Rom 10:11 - As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

When all these verses are combined, it is clear that Paul's preaching came straight from the OT (Moses and the prophets) and he preached Jesus as the Messiah.

So this proves that everyone from Adam on were saved the SAME WAY: by GRACE through FAITH.

Their New Covenant, as stated in Hebrews 8:8-11 is coming to them at Jesus's 2nd coming.

The book of Hebrews was written to SAVED NT Jews. It's the SAME MESSAGE as any other NT book.

There is no such thing as a "rapture" for believers!!

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