Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

claninja said:

If Christ reigns forever, and his kingdom is without end, how can it be limited to a period of time of 1,000 years?

Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

hebrews 1:8 But about the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

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First of all, even per Premil His reign is not limited to just a thousand years. His reign began 2000 years ago and ends once the GWTJ is concluded. Per Amil that only equates to Him reigning around 2000 years in that manner. Per Premil it would equate to Him reigning for 3000 plus years in that manner.


The way I reason things then, it is the senses He is reigning in that don't continue forever, otherwise why would the following verses say what they do?


1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Verse 24 are the senses He reigns in which do not involve forever--all rule and all authority and power. Once verse 26 is fulfilled there is no longer a need for Christ to continue reigning in that manner. Thus He at that time shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Which then equals what is recorded in verse 28---then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Christ still reigns forever though, the fact He is God. He just doesn't reign forever in the manner 1 Corinthians 15:24 records. On a side note, notice what the following says---but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him(Revelation 22:3 ). There are 2 beings depicted, yet the verse says his servants shall serve him, not serve them instead.


Amils think verse 24 is fulfilled on the last day of this age when Christ returns. Premils assume a gap after Christ has returned and when verse 24 is fulfilled. Think about it for a moment. I realize you are never going to be convinced of Premil, but does it seem reasonable that as of the 2nd coming Jesus gives authority over things to overcomers, but He Himself then fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:24 that very same day, which means He puts down all authority and that the overcomers don't. Or if they do it when He does, why would Jesus be giving them this authority to begin with if it is only for 24 hours or less? Premil allows for more days following the 2nd coming. Amil doesn't.

Though there are things that appear to fit Amil better than Premil, there are also things that appear to fit Premil better than Amil.

sovereigngrace said:

I am not ignoring how Greek verbs work or ignoring their definitions. You are. You are actually distorting them to support your faulty thesis.

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You have provided no evidence for your position on the Greek perfect tense for eggizo. Nor you have you provided evidence for how i am “distorting” the word. You simply saying something as true does not make true. If your going to make generalized claims, at least back it up with evidence.

so here is my evidence:


1.) the perfect tense indicates a completed action with lasting results. Please see definition:
“ COMPLETED. This is a completed action that has lasting results. This aspect often reflects a state resulting from past action. For example, if someone has just died, then he is dead. In fact, it is the resulting state that is often the emphasis of this aspect, not the action of the verb itself. I have made you a drink, i.e., your drink is ready.

• Greek marks this aspect by using the PERFECT STEM (e.g. the perfect and pluperfect tenses)”

Source: (The Perfect System: Part I – Ancient Greek for Everyone)

2.) per Helps word studies, when “eggizo” is in the perfect tense it expresses LITERAL extreme closeness and/or nearness

“1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).“

source: (Strong's Greek: 1448. ἐγγίζω (eggizó) -- to make near, refl. to come near)


Therefore, I am arguing it is true that the apostles believed the end and coming of Christ had LITERALLY drawn near.

1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things had drawn near; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

james 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord has drawn near.

sovereigngrace said:

Again, you are sidestepping my points (as per normal). Every generation is supposed to be watching, waiting and expecting for Christ's literal physical return, not Full Preterism's imaginary second coming in AD70. True believer all believe in and look for (to whatever degree) this glorious future approaching event. That is all the meaning is suggesting. It is all about the hope. It is a present hope for every generation. That does mean His physical return is a present reality.

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Again, this side steps the issue, and doesn’t actually address anything.

Your argument is that the 1,000 years should be understood as a multi thousand year intra advent period.

Regardless of what I believe or you believe, Did the apostles believe the intra advent period was to last thousands of years?

One Son said:

How do you see the Greek tenses for these verses?


NET Bible
Heb.9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then* to face judgment.
28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.



Heb.9:27(NET) And just as people are appointed to die once, and then* to face judgment,

* meta <3326>

meta meta

Pronunciation: met-ah'

Origin: a primary preposition (often used adverbially)

Reference: TDNT - 7:766,1102

PrtSpch: prep

In Greek: met 131, meta 295, mey 43

In NET: with 292, after 46, After 42, to 10, later 6, in 5, against 4, among 4, his companions 4, along with 2, companions 2, on 2, With 2, confidently 2, and 2, carries 1, then 1, bringing 1, along 1, without 1, accompanying 1, when 1, afterward 1, use 1, courageously 1, in company with 1, sue 1, joyfully 1, right behind 1, later on 1, hurriedly 1, hurried 1, eagerly 1, from 1, without losing dignity 1, his own companions 1, each 1

In AV: with 345, after 88, among 5, hereafter + 5023 4, afterward + 5023 4, against 4, not tr 1, misc 32

Count: 473

Definition: 1) with, after, behind.


Thanks.




Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17).

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there are 2 Greek verbs in this verse:

1.) “it is apportioned”. this verb is in the present passive or middle active. According to strong’s is means “reserved” for or “awaiting”

“metaphorically, with the dative of person, reserved for one, awaiting him: Colossians 1:5 (ἐλπίς hoped-for blessedness); 2 Timothy 4:8 (στέφανος); Hebrews 9:27 (ἀποθανεῖν, as in 4 Macc. 8:10). (In both senses in Greek writings from Xenophon down.)”

Notice In 2 Timothy 4:8, Paul’s crown was presently being reserved for him. It does not mean that Paul presently had a crown of righteousness. It means that that the crown of righteousness was presently being reserved for Paul until the coming of the Lord, which is when he would receive it.

2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is awaiting for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

2.) “ to die”. This verb is aorist active infinitive. It does not denote time in the infinitive.

there is only one nominative noun (subject or predicate) in this verse and it is not a predicate, and is therefore the subject, imho. That would be the “judgement”.

thus “judgement” is presently being reserved for men after they die. This does not indicate a specific time post death, only that judgement is presently being reserved for men post death. Considering other scriptures state judgement occurs at the coming of Christ. It makes sense that judgement is reserved for men post death at the coming of Christ, just as Paul’s crown of righteousness was being reserved for him until the coming of the Lord to judge

DavidPT said:

First of all, even per Premil His reign is not limited to just a thousand years. His reign began 2000 years ago and ends once the GWTJ is concluded. Per Amil that only equates to Him reigning around 2000 years in that manner. Per Premil it would equate to Him reigning for 3000 plus years in that manner.


The way I reason things then, it is the senses He is reigning in that don't continue forever, otherwise why would the following verses say what they do?


1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Verse 24 are the senses He reigns in which do not involve forever--all rule and all authority and power. Once verse 26 is fulfilled there is no longer a need for Christ to continue reigning in that manner. Thus He at that time shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Which then equals what is recorded in verse 28---then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Christ still reigns forever though, the fact He is God. He just doesn't reign forever in the manner 1 Corinthians 15:24 records. On a side note, notice what the following says---but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him(Revelation 22:3 ). There are 2 beings depicted, yet the verse says his servants shall serve him, not serve them instead.


Amils think verse 24 is fulfilled on the last day of this age when Christ returns. Premils assume a gap after Christ has returned and when verse 24 is fulfilled. Think about it for a moment. I realize you are never going to be convinced of Premil, but does it seem reasonable that as of the 2nd coming Jesus gives authority over things to overcomers, but He Himself then fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:24 that very same day, which means He puts down all authority and that the overcomers don't. Or if they do it when He does, why would Jesus be giving them this authority to begin with if it is only for 24 hours or less? Premil allows for more days following the 2nd coming. Amil doesn't.

Though there are things that appear to fit Amil better than Premil, there are also things that appear to fit Premil better than Amil.

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I believe Christ reigns forever, without end as stated in Luke 1:33 and Hebrews 1:8. That is why I don’t believe Christ’s reign is limited to a period of time with an ending.

such is consistent with the Father and the lamb having the same throne in the new Jerusalem. Notice throne is singular, not plural.

revelation 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him

therefore, i don’t believe 1 Corinthians 15:24 means Christ’s reign ends.

I’d like to point out another thing overcomers inherit: right to the new Jerusalem.

revelation 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

1.) wouldn’t this (heritage in the new Jerusalem) occur at the same time as inheriting the right to the tree of the life (revelation 2:7) , the right to sit on the throne (revelation 3:21), the right of a new name (revelation 2:17) and the right to authority over the nations (revelation 2:26; the nations being those who still need heeling according to revelation 22:2)?

2.) OR do you place a gap between overcomers inheriting the throne of Christ/authority over the nations AND the inheriting of the right to the tree of life and new Jerusalem? If you do, we are kind of back at square one, as amils also put a gap between Inheriting the throne of Christ AND inheriting the tree of life and right to new Jerusalem.

***my position is that they are all rewarded at the resurrection.

this is one of the reasons I think it’s so important to understand the timing of when Christ awards, as it plays a big impact on whether premil or Amil or preterism is more correct. Is it to the soul upon death? is it at the resurrection? Is it 1,000 years after the resurrection?

sovereigngrace said:

You previously said:

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correct, i did say that.

sovereigngrace said:

Are you saying the second coming has already happened?

So, you think Satan’s little season started at the first resurrection and finished in AD70 and Satan was finally and eternally thrown into the Lake of Fire?

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my position is that Satan’s little season involved unbelieving Jews persecuting the church over all the Roman world by their own means and appealing to governing authorities. And that this little season ended when Christ came in 66-70ad In judgement upon Israel and in flaming fire destroyed Jerusalem, its inhabitants, and the old obsolete covenant system. However, this in no way precludes a future coming of Christ at the end of the physical world.

sovereigngrace said:

So, how long is Satan's little season?

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Roughly 40 years

sovereigngrace said:

What is this talking about?

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the apostle’s belief that the end of the age had drawn near.

sovereigngrace said:

What is this talking about?

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the apostle’s belief that the end of the age had drawn near.

sovereigngrace said:

What is this talking about?

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the apostle’s belief that the end of the age had drawn near.

sovereigngrace said:

What is this talking about?

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the apostle’s belief that the end of the age had drawn near.

sovereigngrace said:

The word carries the same import as our English word approach[es].

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Absolutely agree that it can mean the same as our English word.

English definition from Miriam Webster
a: to draw closer to : approach a destination
b: to come very near to : to be almost the same as

sovereigngrace said:

In all 43 biblical references out of 43 that meaning fits. Check them out! That fits every single reference in the New Testament.

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BUT verb TENSES play a big part in understanding a word. He “will approach” is NOT the same has he “is approaching”, which is NOT the same as he “has approached”. These represent different aspects in time.

Again, when a verb is in the perfect indicative active it is a completed action. Even Help’s word studies declares when eggizo is in the perfect tense it means literal nearness:

1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448(eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).“

sovereigngrace said:

He never told us exactly how long it would be till His return.

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he did tell us when he would come in judgement upon Israel:

Mark 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

sovereigngrace said:

It is quite ironic that you are quick to rubbish my interpretation of “impending” or “approaching” yet you are quick and comfortable to stretch out the word to mean 40 years down the road. That is hardly imminent. Isn't that convenient? You’re trying to force a manufactured meaning on this word on the sacred text in order to support Preterism. There’s no way that you could interpret a 40-years wait as imminent. We all know: the meaning is relative according to the context of the txt and the subject under analyze.

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I agree 40 years is a long Time, but This is Not a good counter argument. Were the passages of James 5:8 and 1 Peter 4:7 written in 30ad? NOPE.

The book of James is believed to have been written between 62 and 69 ad. Thus, the destruction of Jerusalem was literally near.

james 5:8 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near.

the book of 1st Peter is believed to have been written between 62 and 65 ad. Thus the destruction of Jerusalem was literally near.

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things had drawn near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

sovereigngrace said:

I think you forget, you have previously admitted to me: "your argument that 'eggizo' can mean approach is correct."

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correct, i agreed that eggizo can mean approach.

can you agree that eggizo In 1 peter 4:7 and James 5:8 is in the perfect tense, and thus indicates literal nearness? Or do are you required to change how Greek verbs work in order to fit your belief?

sovereigngrace said:

What Scriptures (in your opinion) teach a future coming of Christ at the end of the physical world?

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I believe that all of the “near” and “at had” statements refer to the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel. I believe this typifies a future coming of Christ at the end of the physical world, which is a secret knowledge belonging only to God In regards to timing: Deuteronomy 29:29.

now, will you answer my question? Did the apostles believe Christ would come in their life time?

sovereigngrace said:

So, Satan is in the Lake of Fire and the GWT judgment occurred through and since the coming of Titus in AD70?



Was Titus our redeemer? So, what redemption did Titus bring to mankind in AD70.



In what possible way was the coming of Titus the incentive for mankind to remove the darkness and put on the armour of light in AD70.



So, Christians are exhorted in the New Testament no not be negligent in their fellowship up until the Preterist pivotal moment in history - the coming of Titus in AD70?



So, the end of all things happened at the Preterist pivotal moment in history - the coming of Titus in AD70?



So, the coming of Jesus corresponded with the coming of Titus in AD70?

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1.) the pivotal moment in history will always be God coming down in the flesh to serve, die, and rise.

2.) apocalyptic language of God descending and the earth and heavens shaking go hand in hand with national judgements. Therefore, it is consistent with OT scripture to interpret Christ’s coming on the clouds as national judgement on Israel in association with Roman armies being the hammer in God’s hand, just as the Babylonians and Assyrians had been before.

when David’s enemies were defeated, did God literally descend from heavens and the entire earth shake?

2 Samuel 22:8-11 Then the earth shook and quaked; the foundations of the heavensa trembled; they were shaken because He burned with anger.9Smoke rose from His nostrils, and consuming fire came from His mouth; glowing coals blazed forth.10He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.11He mounted a cherub and flew; He soaredb on the wings of the wind.

Did God literally descend from heaven and when the Egyptians were destroyed by the Babylonians?

Isaiah 19:1 This is the burden against Egypt: Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud; He is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble before Him, and the hearts of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Did God literally descend from heaven and mountains literally melt when Samaria was judged by the Assyrians?

micah 1:3-4 behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth.4The mountains will melt beneath Him, and the valleys will split apart, like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.

claninja said:

***my position is that they are all rewarded at the resurrection.

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In that case, my position is the same as yours.

claninja said:

I’d like to point out another thing overcomers inherit: right to the new Jerusalem.

revelation 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

1.) wouldn’t this (heritage in the new Jerusalem) occur at the same time as inheriting the right to the tree of the life (revelation 2:7) , the right to sit on the throne (revelation 3:21), the right of a new name (revelation 2:17) and the right to authority over the nations (revelation 2:26; the nations being those who still need heeling according to revelation 22:2)?

2.) OR do you place a gap between overcomers inheriting the throne of Christ/authority over the nations AND the inheriting of the right to the tree of life and new Jerusalem? If you do, we are kind of back at square one, as amils also put a gap between Inheriting the throne of Christ AND inheriting the tree of life and right to new Jerusalem.

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Even though I'm a Premil, I'm not exactly your typical Premil. Premils do have a gap as indicated in 2.). But, since I'm not the typical Premil I don't have this same gap being applied per my view. Therefore, my position is basically 1.) and not 2.) instead. It makes zero sense that if the overcomers are rewarded with authority over things when the 2nd coming occurs, that they have to wait a thousand years and a little season to be rewarded with having right to the tree of life, having right to enter the gates of the city. My view is, the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming in the end of this age and that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting NHNE.

The fact Jesus rewards overcomers with authority over cities when He returns, regardless whether literal cities are meant or not, and that Christ puts down all authority at some point, it then makes zero sense that the authority Christ bestows upon the overcomers, that this is meaning for all eternity when the authority the Father bestowed upon Christ is not meaning all eternity. This to me means there has to be a period of time following the 2nd coming that prevents the overcomers from having this authority all throughout eternity. In my view this authority over things is meaning throughout the thousand years, not throughout eternity instead.

As to having right to the tree of life, having right to enter through the gates of the city, things of that nature, those things are meaning throughout all eternity. As to authority given them when He returns, and the reason I conclude that is not meaning throughout eternity, my reasoning regarding that is what I have been arguing per 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

As to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, I'm not certain if we are even on the same page regarding those verses? But not meaning through the lenses of Premil nor through the lenses of Amil, but just in general. It says that Christ reigns until. Until implies an end of something. It doesn't imply eternity since eternity has no end. The text indicates that He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. What does it mean to put down? Maybe it means something different to you than it does me?

sovereigngrace said:

This is another passage that blows apart Premillennialism. As you well know: there is no 1,000 yrs mentioned (or recognized) in this passage. You have to force it into the sacred text. It rather demonstrates (like the rest of Scripture) that the end is the end and that it comes at the return of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The 4 uses of the word “for” (or gar or seeing) in this reading demonstrates (in all cases) what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

In the case of this passage, the four references to gar connect and further develop the solemn truth of the fall of man and the blessed truth and present reality of Christ’s current heavenly reign over every enemy. Moreover, after clearly telling us that the parousia is “the end” and that it unquestionably corresponds with the all-consummating delivering up of “the kingdom to God,” and with the point “when he shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power” the Holy Spirit simply explains that “he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Of course, Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ’s rule over His enemies is a present reality that will be finally concluded at the appearance of Christ.

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Even though you argue that rather well, none of this takes into consideration why I am seeing a gap after His coming and before the end meant. Even you can't deny there is a gap there. Even if the end happens the same day He returns, it doesn't happen without there being a gap after He returns and then the end coming.

sovereigngrace said:

No gap! You insert a thousand years everywhere it doesn't belong. That is called adding unto Scripture! You make the same mistake that Full Preterists do with the coming of Titus in AD70. You see it everywhere it is not. You are unhealthily fixated with these thousand years.

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A gap is a gap. Are you denying that there is a gap after Christ returns and that the end comes? If Christ returns, then destroys the lost, then raises the lost, then executes the GWTJ, then the end comes, how can that not possibly involve a gap? And since there is obviously a gap involved no matter how you look at it, this indicates that a thousand years after His return is a possibility. If there was no gap after He has returned and that the end comes, that would be different. That would for certain make a thousand years following His return not be a possibility in that case.

DavidPT said:

As far as I can tell it doesn't say exactly where it takes place. If I thought that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ were meaning one and the same, I would then propose it takes place on earth since it seems obvious to me that that is where the sheep and goats judgment takes place at.

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How is it obvious to you that the sheep and goats judgment takes place on earth? What is that based on?

Since I don't see them referring to the same judgment, I can't then use the sheep and goats judgment to try and help me determine where the GWTJ takes place.

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Do you think the following two verses somehow are not speaking of the same thing? If so, then explain how that can be the case.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.