Poor Christians are deluded by 'grab it' gospel

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Blackhawk

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3rd April 2003 at 05:09 PM SnuP said this in Post #99



What you fail to realize is that everything that comes into our church as doctrine is carefully scrutinized and discerned.  If there is no annointing or light than it is throne out.  This is heardly the passing of tradition, but accually the looking for the fingerprint of God.  And still we seek God before the issues are presented in the church.  We are not excepting traditions, rather we are looking for God.  When a non-denominational minister reads a book, he will only keep the things that have annointing on them, then he will search then out scripturally, and then pray over them.  At this point the doctrine usually lookes different from the original, much of the minister has been added and it has become a personal revelation to the minister.  This is heardly the passing of traditions, any more than traditions were passed to Paul when he went to see the apostles.


But the problem with this is that we are human.  This is not an excuse but just a statement of fact.  Buit what this means is that we are not perfect and we do accept things that are not of God as if they are of God.  All our theoogy is flawed in some way except for God's.  So one can't help but have some tradition in their church whether it is for the good or the bad.  Good tradition is that like Paul gave to Timothy or that most if not all protestant (and Catholic) churches were given by Augustine.  We are suppossed to learn from each other from the past and present.  God gave us eachother as a body for this to occur.  However the bad kind can't also be done away with entirely.  Some doctrines that have been taught have not been of God.  We want to limit these as much as possible but no man has perfect theology.  The only man ever to have it was Jesus and he has been the only one since Himself.  So I understand your concern about tradition but to say that your church has no tradition is not looking at your church realistically. 



 
 
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Blackhawk

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3rd April 2003 at 03:39 PM hobart schmedly said this in Post #97

Hi BlackHawk, and others...
As is often the case with this discussion, the differences go far deeper than "prosperity and healing". Ultimately it goes to deeper issues like "sovereignty", the theological "omni" factors, and other wider issues invloving the very nature of God. These issues are beyond the scope of this dicsussion, and I do not want to introduce them at this time. It is an old topic that I have been presenting in forums for some time... mainly: "Do the theological "Omni" attributes of God allow for the overuling of the specific elements of the Gospel?"
Of course my position is no. But I find many who are of the "orthodox" (and more specifially those who are against WOF) tend to say yes... that God is in fact so sovereign that He can simply (sovereignly) decide not to honor His word, His promises, and even the work of Christ on the cross. Of course they do not say it in such direct simple words... but the end result is the same.
So while we could continue to go around the block with this, I do not see the point because we are proceeding from different foundations. The arguement at hand is superfical and only scatching the surface of these real issues.
Good luck on this and I pray the Spirit open all our eyes to the knowledge of the truth.


First I want to say to all that I will continue the discussion on the Curse of law in the new thread that is about it. 

Hobart,

I think you should start a thread on the sovereignty of God and what that means.  I can understand if you do not want to because of your reasons above.  I think you are right that the health/wealth debate is just the tip of the iceberg of what are real differences are.  I do not know if what you stated is the real difference though.  I do think it starts with who God is and what is his purposes though.  And I think if we spoke somewhat around the real subject of our differences.  I can't pin point the exact difference but it is one that changes the whole we we think about God and what Jesus came to do.  Hopefully we can speak about it someday in mutual respect. 
 
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SnuP

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3rd April 2003 at 12:52 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #101




But the problem with this is that we are human.  This is not an excuse but just a statement of fact.  Buit what this means is that we are not perfect and we do accept things that are not of God as if they are of God.  All our theoogy is flawed in some way except for God's.  So one can't help but have some tradition in their church whether it is for the good or the bad.  Good tradition is that like Paul gave to Timothy or that most if not all protestant (and Catholic) churches were given by Augustine.  We are suppossed to learn from each other from the past and present.  God gave us eachother as a body for this to occur.  However the bad kind can't also be done away with entirely.  Some doctrines that have been taught have not been of God.  We want to limit these as much as possible but no man has perfect theology.  The only man ever to have it was Jesus and he has been the only one since Himself.  So I understand your concern about tradition but to say that your church has no tradition is not looking at your church realistically. 



 

I can conceed to your point on the basis of our humanness, but I still feel that you may be missing my point.  And that is that what is excepted is based alot on whether the annointing is present.  This is a spiritual reality that has nothing to do with our humanness.  Only God's exceptance and agreement can place the annointing on something.  The annointing is not something that can be touch by our flesh.  My church is very careful to test the annointing and the level of annointing on everything.  This standard makes it difficult for traditions of men to enter into our church.
 
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SUNSTONE

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20th March 2003 at 09:49 AM Br. Max said this in Post #8

WOF is Word of Faith. Thats where people think they can work up the faith to intimidate God into giving them luxury and the pampered life.

Thats not true and you know it.

This is what WOF is....

People who believe that God gave them authority and power on this earth, to make a difference in the world around them.

People who pray for wealth, so that they won't lack a thing, for every good work. Prosperity isn't for you! Its so you can use it as a tool, to help other people.

Now there is nothing wrong with having nice things, or even being rich, is there? But its what you do with what you have, that makes it right or wrong. If you just hord it for yourself, well thats wrong, but if you use it to help the poor, or do any good work that helps further the kingdom, that is what God really wants. He doesn't mind you having things, and if you disagree with that, well then I am willing to bet, you are guilty of it. But don't spend it all on yourself, don't be selfish. Use some of it to help others. If you have alot, use alot. If you have a little, do what you can. You don't have to have money, use your hands, or mouth.

If you pay your tithes, what is the promise made by God, in Malichi?
 
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Outspoken

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"Why would you believe that Job is so perfect that he could not have had any sin or fear in his life. "

I think you need to read the contexts of my statements. I was reply to a statement saying that job was, in essentice a sinful man and that is why he was tested. This is not so. Job was tested because God wanted to test him, not because he was sinful, or do you think When God HIMSELF says someone is righteous that he is lying?

"Umm that only applies to those who are in Christ. "

No, the curse of the law applies to now and then. It applies to you until you are judged before God. Until then its hope in God :)

"You cannot be in Christ and still sin."

So then you're not in Christ, cause brother you can't tell me you don't sin ;)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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4th April 2003 at 01:56 AM Outspoken said this in Post #105

"You cannot be in Christ and still sin."

So then you're not in Christ, cause brother you can't tell me you don't sin ;)


"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1 John 3:6-9 KJV)
 
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Blackhawk

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3rd April 2003 at 10:35 PM SnuP said this in Post #103



I can conceed to your point on the basis of our humanness, but I still feel that you may be missing my point.  And that is that what is excepted is based alot on whether the annointing is present.  This is a spiritual reality that has nothing to do with our humanness.  Only God's exceptance and agreement can place the annointing on something.  The annointing is not something that can be touch by our flesh.  My church is very careful to test the annointing and the level of annointing on everything.  This standard makes it difficult for traditions of men to enter into our church.

Okay that sounds nice but what do you really mean? How do you test the annoiting and the level of annoiting?  As for me I try to be lead by the Spirit and so does my church but we often times fail.  What I try to do though is to spend as much time as I can building my relationship with God so I know where to go and what to do etc. etc. But what do you and your church do?
 
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Blackhawk

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4th April 2003 at 10:35 PM didaskalos said this in Post #106




"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1 John 3:6-9 KJV)

I believe John is speaking of habitual sinnning or that si is not characteristic of the believer.  It is obvious through other passages of scripture that christians still sin so it must not mean that we are completely perfect.  It can also mean that sin does not have a place in the life of a believer because he is born of God.  Which is basically saying the same thing as that the one who is born of God does not have sin characterizing his life. 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1 John 3:6-9 KJV)


I believe John is speaking of habitual sinnning or that si is not characteristic of the believer.  It is obvious through other passages of scripture that christians still sin so it must not mean that we are completely perfect.  It can also mean that sin does not have a place in the life of a believer because he is born of God. Which is basically saying the same thing as that the one who is born of God does not have sin characterizing his life.


The basic foundational truth behind this scripture and others is that we cannot sin because we are now born of God, and we have His nature. We are good trees that cannot bear evil fruit. We are His seed and we will do His works. To take this scripture and say it means that "we can sin, but not habitually" is to also say "God sins, but not habitually". To say that we have to sin a little every day is to say God sins a little every day. It says that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil... but failed.
You can only understand this scripture and the entire book of 1 John by seeing that John is talking about the part of man that was born again, that is of the seed of God. This is not the flesh or the mind, but the spirit. You can no longer sin from the spirit. It is formed after the image of God, and can only do righteous works. If you walk in the power of your reborn spirit... you will never, ever sin again. That is the victory we have in Christ.
 
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SnuP

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4th April 2003 at 12:56 AM Outspoken said this in Post #105

"Why would you believe that Job is so perfect that he could not have had any sin or fear in his life. "

I think you need to read the contexts of my statements. I was reply to a statement saying that job was, in essentice a sinful man and that is why he was tested. This is not so. Job was tested because God wanted to test him, not because he was sinful, or do you think When God HIMSELF says someone is righteous that he is lying?

Well I guess you are intitled to your opinion, but don't forget how much rebuking God did to this righteous man.  And you are persuming God's motives.

"Umm that only applies to those who are in Christ. "

No, the curse of the law applies to now and then. It applies to you until you are judged before God. Until then its hope in God :)

Gal. 3:13   Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, by becomeing a curse for us.

If I am redeemed from it than that obviously means that it no longer applies to those in Christ. 

"You cannot be in Christ and still sin."

So then you're not in Christ, cause brother you can't tell me you don't sin ;)

 Ok, we'll go over this again.  Yes I have gone lengthy periods of time without sinning.  As long as I was in Christ I did not sin.  And I have gone three month without coming out of Christ.
 
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SnuP

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4th April 2003 at 08:37 PM didaskalos said this in Post #110

The basic foundational truth behind this scripture and others is that we cannot sin because we are now born of God, and we have His nature. We are good trees that cannot bear evil fruit. We are His seed and we will do His works. To take this scripture and say it means that "we can sin, but not habitually" is to also say "God sins, but not habitually". To say that we have to sin a little every day is to say God sins a little every day. It says that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil... but failed.
You can only understand this scripture and the entire book of 1 John by seeing that John is talking about the part of man that was born again, that is of the seed of God. This is not the flesh or the mind, but the spirit. You can no longer sin from the spirit. It is formed after the image of God, and can only do righteous works. If you walk in the power of your reborn spirit... you will never, ever sin again. That is the victory we have in Christ.

Could not have said it better my self.

by the way Andrew:  There is three dimentions to every scripture.  Most people only see one or two dimentions.  We should alway strive for all three.  Spirit, soul, and body.  First second, and third heaven.  Every scripture influences each of these three in the demention in which they operate.
 
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SnuP

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4th April 2003 at 05:19 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #107



Okay that sounds nice but what do you really mean? How do you test the annoiting and the level of annoiting?  As for me I try to be lead by the Spirit and so does my church but we often times fail.  What I try to do though is to spend as much time as I can building my relationship with God so I know where to go and what to do etc. etc. But what do you and your church do?

Most people gain the ability to sense the annointing when they recieve their prayer language.

This is a real thing, its validity has been tested.  (Different people sensing the annointing on the same music, teaching, prophecy, etc... ; sensing the annointing of portions of writing that is varified to be that part that God inspiried.)

Building your relationship is the best way to improve your ability to sense the annointing, hear God, see the Spirit, and just all around follow the leading of the Spirit.  Since the annointing is basically the fingerprint of God, it helps in the discernment of the the leading of the Spirit.
 
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What I hate about the prosperity gospel most is the fact that people who arent doing well financially are automatically judged in many churches today. There is one denomination that has been particularly bad about that to my family, actually....wont mention it by name though.

The fact is we owned a construction company and did rather well, but didnt tell people about it and people assumed that because I went to work in dirty clothes I was "living beneath my blessing" and must therefore be spiritually destitute. People would judge and preach at us all the time about how I should go and work another job to provide for my family better and that we werent doing well spiritually because we didnt flash our cash. Little did they know that the envelopes with no names on them every week were the ones keeping the church from going under at one church in particular.

I dont say this to pat my back, because I never have felt the need...I say this as a tribute to our shameless, shallow, blind attention to the material. I know I have learned much from it...may we all....
 
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Caedmon

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4th April 2003 at 10:24 PM DustSculpture said this in Post #115

What I hate about the prosperity gospel most is the fact that people who arent doing well financially are automatically judged in many churches today. There is one denomination that has been particularly bad about that to my family, actually....wont mention it by name though.

The fact is we owned a construction company and did rather well, but didnt tell people about it and people assumed that because I went to work in dirty clothes I was "living beneath my blessing" and must therefore be spiritually destitute. People would judge and preach at us all the time about how I should go and work another job to provide for my family better and that we werent doing well spiritually because we didnt flash our cash. Little did they know that the envelopes with no names on them every week were the ones keeping the church from going under at one church in particular.

I dont say this to pat my back, because I never have felt the need...I say this as a tribute to our shameless, shallow, blind attention to the material. I know I have learned much from it...may we all....

Oh man, I'm sorry that happened to you. :(

There's a nifty little work that will tell you all about this type of thing. It's titled The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, by sociologist Max Weber. Hopefully, it'll answer most of your concerns. It discusses the immergence of prosperity as an indicator of salvation for some protestant sects. It also mentions that some of those that cannot achieve this apparent prosperity will digress into ascetism as a form of compensation. A prime example of this would be the Holiness Church snake handlers in Sand Mountain, Tennessee. Since they lacked the affluence of their neighboring protestants, they would take to ascetic practices such as handling snakes and drinking stricnine. I'm not saying that this group is representative of protestant ethic as a whole, but rather an unusual extreme.
 
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Blackhawk

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5th April 2003 at 04:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #114



Most people gain the ability to sense the annointing when they recieve their prayer language.

This is a real thing, its validity has been tested.  (Different people sensing the annointing on the same music, teaching, prophecy, etc... ; sensing the annointing of portions of writing that is varified to be that part that God inspiried.)

Building your relationship is the best way to improve your ability to sense the annointing, hear God, see the Spirit, and just all around follow the leading of the Spirit.  Since the annointing is basically the fingerprint of God, it helps in the discernment of the the leading of the Spirit.


I guess an evangelical would just call it being spirit lead.  Howver I think everyone can be spirit lead and do not need to receive any other gift after conversion besdes just the continual indweling of the Holy Spirit. 
 
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Blackhawk

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5th April 2003 at 02:37 AM didaskalos said this in Post #110

The basic foundational truth behind this scripture and others is that we cannot sin because we are now born of God, and we have His nature. We are good trees that cannot bear evil fruit. We are His seed and we will do His works. To take this scripture and say it means that "we can sin, but not habitually" is to also say "God sins, but not habitually". To say that we have to sin a little every day is to say God sins a little every day. It says that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil... but failed.


How? And then what do you do when you sin? Do you say you are not of God then?

 
You can only understand this scripture and the entire book of 1 John by seeing that John is talking about the part of man that was born again, that is of the seed of God. This is not the flesh or the mind, but the spirit. You can no longer sin from the spirit. It is formed after the image of God, and can only do righteous works. If you walk in the power of your reborn spirit... you will never, ever sin again. That is the victory we have in Christ.[/size]

Huh? How is sin from the spirit but not from the rest of the body?  Where do you find that in scripture? 
 
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Blackhawk

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5th April 2003 at 03:58 AM SnuP said this in Post #113



Could not have said it better my self.

by the way Andrew:  There is three dimentions to every scripture.  Most people only see one or two dimentions.  We should alway strive for all three.  Spirit, soul, and body.  First second, and third heaven.  Every scripture influences each of these three in the demention in which they operate.

Hmm sounds like Origen.  Is this belief influenced by him in anyway?  He thought there were three inerpretations to ever scripture.  And what he said sounds much like what you just did.  The problem with what he did is that he could make scripture say what he wanted it to say not what it did say.  Vut this si another topic.  We can discuss it more if you want to start another thread.
 
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Job 1:6-12
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.
(NAU)

Now whether this dialouge actually occurred or not is not a point of debate here. However this passage shows God's intent with Job and itwas not to discipline or punish him. Also it shows that Job was arighteouss man and that these things occurred to him not because of his sin. So I think Scripture is pretty clear that the motive for God to allow the evil that occurred in Job's life was not because of his sin.
 
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