Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

claninja said:

the gospel and epistolic narrative is that Satan was warring against the church following Christs 1st advent, as evidenced by his prowling, masquerading, leading many astray, putting Christian’s in prison, working through the sons of disobedience…. But would be crushed. There is no mention of a “release” of Satan...

Revelation 20 as a whole and the millennium are the not the same thing. The millennium is only part of revelation 20. Therefore, while i don’t believe the millennium is the intra advent period, I do believe revelation 20 as a whole contains the intra advent period.

I believe the 1,000 years is the first resurrection. I believe Satan’s little season is the intra advent period, and Satan and his army’s destruction as the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel.

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DavidPT said:

I finally realize what you are meaning by that. When you initially mentioned it, it apparently went over my head at the time. I don't see it as one new heaven and new earth being replaced with yet another one. That equals two of them, not one. I indicated that it is a process that begins at the 2nd coming, then a thousand years, a little season, and a GWTJ later, the process is fully accomplished. Similar to the 6 days of creation. God didn't do all of that in a snap of the fingers. And by the time He got to the 6th day He had everything prepared for them via what He did the previous 5 days. In a similar way, by the time the GWTJ is finished, God will have the final product, so to speak, fully prepared for them at that point. That's the best analogy I can come up with for the time being in order to somewhat describe what I'm meaning.

No matter how one looks at it, except for maybe some Premils and how they are looking at it, it is ludicrous to think that the NHNE doesn't begin with the 2nd coming. If Revelation 19 can parallel Revelation 20 rather than chronologically precede it, according to Amils, why can't any of Revelation 21-22 parallel anything recorded in ch 20 then?

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DavidPT said:

I finally realize what you are meaning by that. When you initially mentioned it, it apparently went over my head at the time. I don't see it as one new heaven and new earth being replaced with yet another one. That equals two of them, not one. I indicated that it is a process that begins at the 2nd coming, then a thousand years, a little season, and a GWTJ later, the process is fully accomplished. Similar to the 6 days of creation. God didn't do all of that in a snap of the fingers. And by the time He got to the 6th day He had everything prepared for them via what He did the previous 5 days. In a similar way, by the time the GWTJ is finished, God will have the final product, so to speak, fully prepared for them at that point. That's the best analogy I can come up with for the time being in order to somewhat describe what I'm meaning.

No matter how one looks at it, except for maybe some Premils and how they are looking at it, it is ludicrous to think that the NHNE doesn't begin with the 2nd coming. If Revelation 19 can parallel Revelation 20 rather than chronologically precede it, according to Amils, why can't any of Revelation 21-22 parallel anything recorded in ch 20 then?

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DavidPT said:

Why did God in the beginning create a brand new earth, meaning one didn't exist until He created it, then allow the unregenerate to dwell on it and corrupt it? Then when He destroyed the earth during Noah's flood, He once again allowed the unregenerate to dwell on it and corrupt it. That makes two times thus far. And how does that saying go? The third time is a charm. After the third time He allows this He will have acheived the perfect heaven and earth He was intending in the beginning.

Can you explain why the following does not involve a regenerated earth?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It is during the regeneration, not prior to it nor after it, that this verse is meaning. Prior to this verse Peter asked the following.

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

Jesus answered that in verse 28. One is to believe that to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, involves 24 hours or less or that it involves judging, as in the GWTJ? It makes much better sense that it involves governing not anything involving condemning anyone to the LOF or something.

Though I disagree that the sheep and goats judgment is the GWTJ, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it is. Obviously, the sheep meant in Matthew 25 has to include the ones meant in Matthew 19:28. Does it look like per that judgment that any of the sheep are co-judging with Christ, thus play a part in condemning the goats to the LOF? Even in Revelation 20:11-15 it depicts no such thing. That account, as with Matthew 25, only has one judge presiding, not multiple judges instead. Therefore, like I already indicated, judging in Matthew 19:28 has to be meaning as in governing. It is then ludicrous to think that the reward Peter was inquiring about in Matthew 19:27, that it only involves 24 hours or less. After all, per Amil, after the last day of this age, there is nowhere for Matthew 19:28 to fit if that involves more than a singular 24 hour day. The way Amils try and get around this, judging doesn't involve governing, it involves playing a part in the fate of the twelve tribes of Israel during the GWTJ.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the twelve tribes of Israel meant here might be the same twelve tribes of Israel meant per the following?

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


How does that affect your interpretation of Matthew 19:28 if these in James 1:1 are meant? Apparently, it is the church that is being addressed in James 1:1.

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claninja said:

So you agree Matthew 24:9 is applicable to the apostles generation?

Well, since you just used Matthew 24:9 as evidence of revelation 20:7-9, you seem be in agreement that Satan’s little season is applicable to the apostles generation?





I have stated multiple times now, I believe Satan’s little season against the church followed the first resurrection, which is Christ, so I don’t know what your talking about.

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claninja said:

1.) The epistles clearly demonstrate that the apostles believed in a coming of christ that was “at hand” (James 5:8-9) and “in a little while” and “without delay” (Hebrews 10:36-37). The epistles clearly demonstrate that the the apostles believed that they were living in the “last days” (acts 2:26-17) and in the “last hour” (1 john 2:18-19) at the “consummation of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11) and that the end of all things “had drawn near” (1 Peter 4:7)

Therefore, your interpretation of this symbolic passage in revelation 20:4 as being literal thousands of years prior to the coming of Christ, renders the clear and non-symbolic statements of the apostles as meaningless.

2.) the gospels and epistles clearly demonstrate that Satan was cast out (John 12:31) and coming (John 14:30). The epistles clearly depict Satan as prowling like a lion (1 Peter 5:8), leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15), hindering the gospels to the nations (1 Thessalonians 2:18), masquerading as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), etc… the apostles and early church faced persecution all over the Roman world at the hands of the unbelieving Jews and Roman authorities.

therefore, your interpretation of this symbolic passage in revelation 20:7-9, as some only-in-the-future war against Christians, renders the clear and non-symbolic statements of the apostles and their persecution by Satan and his servants as meaningless.

3.) your silence on my question about your use of Matthew 24:9, as being about revelation 20:7-9, is deafening.

4.) I interpret the symbolic by use of the literal, not the other way around.

the gospel/epistolic narrative is this:

Christ’s 1st advent destroyed the works of the devil, who had the power over death (1 John 3:8, Hebrew 2:14). This resulted in those that belong to Christ being raised from spiritual death and made a royal priesthood (Colossians 3:1, Ephesians 2:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9) and given gifts and secret knowledge of the kingdom for advancing the ministry of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-23, mark 4:11) This guaranteed the the future bodily resurrection of the saints (Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 1 Corinthians 15:20-21, Romans 8:23), and future rewards for overcoming righteous (2 Timothy 2:12, John 6:50, 2 Timothy 4:8, 2 Corinthians 5:10, luke 19:15-17). The saints reign with christ without end, amen! I am arguing that John, in revelation 20:4-6, was seeing all of this as one event through the lens of Christs victorious 1st advent called the “first resurrection”

Christ’s 1st advent also resulted in Satan being cast out (John 12:31) and coming (John 14:30). Following the fulfillment of Christ’s advent, satan was prowling like a lion and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8), masquerading (2 Corinthians 11:14), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), hindering the gospel to the nations (1 Thessalonians 2:17-18), leading many astray (1 John 2:18). During this period, in which satan was warring against the church following the first resurrection, the apostles declared that the end of all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7), that it was the consummation of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11), the last days (acts 2:16-17), the last hour (1 John 2:18-19), and that the coming of Christ had drawn near (James 5:8-9), and that in a little while he would come without delay (Hebrews 10:36-37), and that Satan would soon be crushed (Romans 16:20). How can this be any other event than Satan’s little season, considering the time statements of the apostles?

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claninja said:

1.) The epistles clearly demonstrate that the apostles believed in a coming of christ that was “at hand” (James 5:8-9) and “in a little while” and “without delay” (Hebrews 10:36-37). The epistles clearly demonstrate that the the apostles believed that they were living in the “last days” (acts 2:26-17) and in the “last hour” (1 john 2:18-19) at the “consummation of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11) and that the end of all things “had drawn near” (1 Peter 4:7)

Therefore, your interpretation of this symbolic passage in revelation 20:4 as being literal thousands of years prior to the coming of Christ, renders the clear and non-symbolic statements of the apostles as meaningless.

2.) the gospels and epistles clearly demonstrate that Satan was cast out (John 12:31) and coming (John 14:30). The epistles clearly depict Satan as prowling like a lion (1 Peter 5:8), leading many astray (1 Timothy 5:15), hindering the gospels to the nations (1 Thessalonians 2:18), masquerading as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), etc… the apostles and early church faced persecution all over the Roman world at the hands of the unbelieving Jews and Roman authorities.

therefore, your interpretation of this symbolic passage in revelation 20:7-9, as some only-in-the-future war against Christians, renders the clear and non-symbolic statements of the apostles and their persecution by Satan and his servants as meaningless.

3.) your silence on my question about your use of Matthew 24:9, as being about revelation 20:7-9, is deafening.

4.) I interpret the symbolic by use of the literal, not the other way around.

the gospel/epistolic narrative is this:

Christ’s 1st advent destroyed the works of the devil, who had the power over death (1 John 3:8, Hebrew 2:14). This resulted in those that belong to Christ being raised from spiritual death and made a royal priesthood (Colossians 3:1, Ephesians 2:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9) and given gifts and secret knowledge of the kingdom for advancing the ministry of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-23, mark 4:11) This guaranteed the the future bodily resurrection of the saints (Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 1 Corinthians 15:20-21, Romans 8:23), and future rewards for overcoming righteous (2 Timothy 2:12, John 6:50, 2 Timothy 4:8, 2 Corinthians 5:10, luke 19:15-17). The saints reign with christ without end, amen! I am arguing that John, in revelation 20:4-6, was seeing all of this as one event through the lens of Christs victorious 1st advent called the “first resurrection”

Christ’s 1st advent also resulted in Satan being cast out (John 12:31) and coming (John 14:30). Following the fulfillment of Christ’s advent, satan was prowling like a lion and looking to devour (1 Peter 5:8), masquerading (2 Corinthians 11:14), working through the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:1), hindering the gospel to the nations (1 Thessalonians 2:17-18), leading many astray (1 John 2:18). During this period, in which satan was warring against the church following the first resurrection, the apostles declared that the end of all things had drawn near (1 Peter 4:7), that it was the consummation of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11), the last days (acts 2:16-17), the last hour (1 John 2:18-19), and that the coming of Christ had drawn near (James 5:8-9), and that in a little while he would come without delay (Hebrews 10:36-37), and that Satan would soon be crushed (Romans 16:20). How can this be any other event than Satan’s little season, considering the time statements of the apostles?

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claninja said:

Which part is unrelated? It’s difficult to assess your comments, when you make generic statements like this.




Incorrect, It does not mean “distant future” when the perfect indicative active tense is used. It means literal nearness and extreme closeness when used in that tense.

From helps:
“1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence – even a presence ('It is here') because the moment of this coming happened (i.e. at the beginning of Jesus' ministry)" (J. Schlosser).”

Romans 13:12, 1 Peter 4:7, and James 5:8-9 use “eggizo” in the perfect indicative active. Thus indicating that the apostles did in fact believe in a literal at hand coming of Christ.



right, you are forced to create a new definition and declare that God cannot really tell us when things happen soon or In the Future (which is not true because there passages when God tells his servants things are literally far away and literally near) , effectively rendering any time statements in the Bible as useless, except when it suits your position. Such is Inconsistent and ridiculous.




and it’s foolish to build systematic theologies on one symbolic passage in revelation, and yet, here we are.

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claninja said:

your straw man arguments are all over the place, I never said I believed Satan’s little season is 2,000+ years.




on the contrary, it does prove the apostles believed the coming of Christ had literally drawn near, hence the use of the perfect indicative active.

If you wish to completely ignore how Greek verbs work and ignore the definition of literally near or soon when in the perfect tense, as given by Helps word studies, then what is even the point of the OP which claims to use Greek verb tenses to disprove Premil.

It seems, based on your own logic, that premils can also just tell you “your verb tenses prove nothing” when it suits them, and they can “win” the argument against your OP.




eggizo doesn’t mean arrived.

Another poorly constructed counter argument…

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