Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Hmm said:

Me too.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."

1 John 4:18. New King James Version.

Interesting that this uses the word torment. I dread to think what mental gymnastics the ECT'ers need to perform to get out of that lol.

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I'm starting to see a connection between Matthew 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Both talk about torment/punishment being the result of a lack of perfect love/charity on our part.

Der Alte said:

Been one for 55 years never heard that. And I graduated from their flag ship school.

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Do you believe and teach Arminian theology in Southern Baptist Convention? Do you teach Penal Substitution? Do you believe in OSAS?

Baptists and Calvinism: Lessons from Sprague’s Annals of the American Baptist Pulpit

Hmm said:

I think the metaphor of a refiner's fire that's often used in the Bible to describe hell supports this. This is a fire which burns away all the dross and leave pure gold behind and in the same way, God's presence in the resurrection will burn away all our sinfulness from us to reveal the pure person within, as an.unstained image of God. This burning process sounds like it has the potential to be extremely painful. Once we are purified we will be ready to accept the grace of Christ also.

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I'm exploring that in relation to Orthodox theology. Looking for similarities.

Hmm said:

I think the metaphor of a refiner's fire that's often used in the Bible to describe hell supports this. This is a fire which burns away all the dross and leave pure gold behind and in the same way, God's presence in the resurrection will burn away all our sinfulness from us to reveal the pure person within, as an.unstained image of God. This burning process sounds like it has the potential to be extremely painful. Once we are purified we will be ready to accept the grace of Christ also.

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Anyone who has seen the work a refiner does might be frightened by the prospect of being in a refiner's fire. I like to balance that idea with this passage below from Isaiah.

A live coal is taken from the altar and used to touch the prophet's lips. No indication that this was at all painful. Except perhaps the pain the prophet was experiencing due to his own feelings of unworthiness. The live took care of that problem.

Isaiah 6:5-8 NRSV
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”

Hmm said:

I'm beginning to find Protestantism uninspiring and shallow.

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Reading EO books is enjoyable. I have a few on my Christmas wish list .

Andrewn said:

Do you believe and teach Arminian theology in Southern Baptist Convention?

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Not that I know of. What do you consider Arminian theology? Be specific.

Do you teach Penal Substitution? Do you believe in OSAS?

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Baptists and Calvinism: Lessons from Sprague’s Annals of the American Baptist Pulpit

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What do you consider Penal substitution? Be specific.
OSAS Yes and no. See Heb 10:28-31

Andrewn said:

Reading EO books is enjoyable. I have a few on my Christmas wish list .

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The more I learn, the more I like.

Hmm said:

I'd be interested in hearing anything you find and would care to post. I'm beginning to find Protestantism uninspiring and shallow.

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I find Orthodoxy to be a lot deeper, that's for sure.

MMXX said:

The more I learn, the more I like.

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I give you a lot of credit for continuing to research it.
Most Christians (now) want to fight at the word Universalism.
They are woefully ignorant of it. Thanks for helping us educate these fine folks. We're all in this together, after all.

MMXX said:

I find Orthodoxy to be a deeper, that's for sure.

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Like a bunker, or a rabbit hole? - lol

Saint Steven said:

I give you a lot of credit for continuing to research it.
Most Christians (now) want to fight at the word Universalism.
They are woefully ignorant of it. Thanks for helping us educate these fine folks. We're all in this together, after all.

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The theology regarding God's relationship with mankind is definitely part of it. But also, if not more so, is the extreme humility and desperate need for the grace of God that's presented is deep and appealing. It calls for a lot of commitment and achievement through Theosis, yet bashes down any sense of pride. I watched a short stirring lecture about the sheep and goats given by an Orthodox hierarchy, and what struck me was in the comments, someone wrote "I'm a goat!". And the Archimandrite replied "I am too. But I want to be a sheep. Your prayers!". In some ways I think Orthodoxy can be summed up in one verse; But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Luke 18:13

Saint Steven said:

Like a bunker, or a rabbit hole? - lol

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I'll say, like the roots of an ancient tree.

Hmm said:

That's a new word to me so something to explore there.
As regards Christian universalism, .....while the EO church does not hold a dogmatic position on it either way but certainly does not regard it as heretical. Protestantism again scores the lowest for me, and I say that as a reluctant Protestant.

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Why do you say this? That is not what I find in the Eastern Orthodox Bible. EOB.

Link to:Eastern Orthodox Bible online

Hmm said:

Because it's the truth, as evinced by EO theologian David Bentley Hart:

"Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter.”

Full article here Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

Why doesn't that surprise me?

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Understanding ancient Orthodox theology and tradition goes much deeper and further than what a Protestant is going to find in just reading the EOB, especially through Protestant eyes.

Hmm said:

That's a new word to me so something to explore there.

As regards Christian universalism, while Protestant denominations usually regard universalism as a heresy, AFAIK Catholicism does not endorse it but says that we should hope that hell is empty and that we are all restored to God while the EO church does not hold a dogmatic position on it either way but certainly does not regard it as heretical. Protestantism again scores the lowest for me, and I say that as a reluctant Protestant.

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I see Ware is in the list of theologians mentioned by DBH. Here's Ware talking about Theosis.

Hmm said:

Because it's the truth, as evinced by EO theologian David Bentley Hart:
"Orthodoxy’s entire dogmatic deposit resides in the canons of the seven ecumenical councils—everything else in Orthodox tradition, be it ever so venerable, beautiful, or spiritually nourishing, can possess at most the authority of accepted custom, licit conjecture, or fruitful practice—and the consensus of the most conscientious and historically literate Orthodox theologians and scholars over the past several decades (Evdokimov, Bulgakov, Clément, Turincev, Ware, Alfeyev, to name a few) is that universalism as such, as a permissible theologoumenon or plausible hope, has never been condemned by the Church. Doctrine is silent on the matter.”
Full article here Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

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Moderately interesting article. But something I immediately noticed. Not one single direct quote from any of the historical persons referred to and not one single identification of any historical source. Just the unsupported opinion of Hart. You have anything better than that?
How about a quote or two from the presiding official of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church or some official theology writing.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

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And why doesn't this surprise me? A direct quote from the Eastern Orthodox Bible which clearly states "eternal punishment" and NOT as UR-ists like to wrest the text, the nonsensical term, "age during correction." They don't even realize the error, to make the text say what they want it to they change a single adjective into a noun "age" and a preposition, "during."