The Calvinism vs Arminianism debate

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,254
4,227
37
US
✟918,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
In the end, does it really matter which version is correct? We both have the right ideas on salvation, (salvation is by grace through faith). Humans will never believe the ultimate truth and are probably miles away from grasping it. Sure, we have the Bible and Calvinism takes the cake at applying the whole Bible towards its practice and theology instead of cherry picking verses as the Arminians tend to do.

Not that our Theological differences matter. And across most denominations many people people cling to Christ and apply their Bibles to their lives. A great Priest or Pastor can guide people who are lost in a Biblical sense. Not to mention there's been great Theologians on Calvin's side and on Jacob's side throughout the years who both have put forth some great points for both sides. So it doesn't really matter which side is right does it?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Halbhh

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Peter made mistakes. Yet, God can save him anyway. People do naturally tend to overestimate how well they understand what is in the New Testament. It's a natural tendency of being human. Kinda like how Adam and Eve decided to eat that certain fruit: my way is best.

So, a main solution to that human tendency to think we already know it all is to try to go the opposite way and truly listen to scripture.

The attitude then is: God can teach me (you, me, us) things you don't know.

We can sense that's the right attitude, because Christ said for example:

Matthew 18:3 "Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And He was as always speaking for all of us there to listen to -- we all must be humble in that way, listening in that way: listening to Him like little children.

Having "ears that hear."
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Neostarwcc
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,254
4,227
37
US
✟918,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Peter made mistakes. Yet, God can save him anyway. People do naturally tend to overestimate how well they understand what is in the New Testament. It's a natural tendency of being human. Kinda like how Adam and Eve decided to eat that certain fruit: my way is best.

So, a main solution to that human tendency to think we already know it all is to try to go the opposite way and truly listen to scripture.

The attitude then is: God can teach me (you, me, us) things you don't know.

We can sense that's the right attitude, because Christ said for example:

Matthew 18:3 "Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And He was as always speaking for all of us there to listen to -- we all must be humble in that way, listening in that way: listening to Him like little children.

Having "ears that hear."

That is so true. I'm not saying every Christian is saved because there are false ones but those that truly remain in the faith and truly believe have eternal life residing in them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,776
5,639
Utah
✟719,205.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
In the end, does it really matter which version is correct? We both have the right ideas on salvation, (salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone). Humans will never believe the ultimate truth and are probably miles away from grasping it. Sure, we have the Bible and Calvinism takes the cake at applying the whole Bible towards its practice and theology instead of cherry picking verses as the Arminians tend to do.

Not that our Theological differences matter. And across most denominations many people people cling to Christ and apply their Bibles to their lives. A great Priest or Pastor can guide people who are lost in a Biblical sense. Not to mention there's been great Theologians on Calvin's side and on Jacob's side throughout the years who both have put forth some great points for both sides. So it doesn't really matter which side is right does it?

TULIP

The truth is that any passage in the Bible will be difficult for you if you come with a preconceived idea and try to fit your idea into the Bible instead of changing your theology (regardless what that is) to fit what the Bible says.

Try clearing your table of theology (regardless what it is) .... put God's Love on the table .... and nothing goes on the table if it is contrary to God's Love.

God is almighty and sovereign ... however He favors Love over everything.

No love in Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
In the end, does it really matter which version is correct? We both have the right ideas on salvation, (salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone). Humans will never believe the ultimate truth and are probably miles away from grasping it. Sure, we have the Bible and Calvinism takes the cake at applying the whole Bible towards its practice and theology instead of cherry picking verses as the Arminians tend to do.

Not that our Theological differences matter. And across most denominations many people people cling to Christ and apply their Bibles to their lives. A great Priest or Pastor can guide people who are lost in a Biblical sense. Not to mention there's been great Theologians on Calvin's side and on Jacob's side throughout the years who both have put forth some great points for both sides. So it doesn't really matter which side is right does it?
One correction and a question.

You stated, "salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone", that is not actually correct.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not salvation is by faith.

What happens if both Calvinism and Arminianism are incorrect?
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What happens if both Calvinism and Arminianism are incorrect?

Oh no, I'm going to have to look up those terms again? (I think I tend to choose to forget what they are suppose to point at, as the ideas aren't complete, and so are a hindrance (in that a doctrine is a hindrance to reading scripture with a real listening, even when it has some correct bit in said doctrine)) (yes, I many times already pointed out an error in the TULIP, but in a way errors are inevitable: errors seem to arise from the doctrinal impulse -- any wish to summarize (thus oversimplify) and be done with listening...)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
TULIP

The truth is that any passage in the Bible will be difficult for you if you come with a preconceived idea and try to fit your idea into the Bible instead of changing your theology (regardless what that is) to fit what the Bible says.

Try clearing your table of theology (regardless what it is) .... put God's Love on the table .... and nothing goes on the table if it is contrary to God's Love.

God is almighty and sovereign ... however He favors Love over everything.

No love in Calvinism.
A very good post.

That is the revelation that has been delivered to humanity.

That Jesus Christ was, in fact, divine love in a human form.

How great a love has God for us that He stepped down from His throne and became one of us. Our Lord, His majesty Jesus, spent thirty years living with a deeply sinful and dangerous, nation of people. People that opposed Him every step of the way. Did Jesus respond with wrath? Certainly not, Jesus forgave, as divine love always does.

Jesus then went far beyond our human understanding in sacrificing Himself for us.

That is not what we do, when someone offends us or hurts us, we respond not with compassion or forgiveness. We respond as humanity has always responded with hate.

The overriding attribute that God has revealed in the New Testament about Himself. Is that unconditional love towards His creation. A love that I still don't understand fully comprehend.

Is there any other way to understand God than the statement, God is love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

Trusting in Him

Well-Known Member
Oct 25, 2021
1,063
671
71
Devon
✟49,590.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't want to be following any particular theological teaching! I just want to believe the bible and be teachable by God. How much theological training is just an orgaised form of head knowledge? I think that too much theoretic knowledge is a bad thing, scirpture need to be allowed to be a living thing. Also we need to have a living faith.

It's definitely not all about knowledge, we need the joy of the lord to be our strength. Just knowing how to say all the right words, does not make it the real thing. We need to be those who live for Him and Him alone. We can't do that by just thinking about that, it either comes forth as part of us, or it does not. What comes forth in those momemnts of trial as a natural thing are who we really are in Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: klutedavid
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,776
5,639
Utah
✟719,205.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
A very good post.

That is the revelation that has been delivered to humanity.

That Jesus Christ was, in fact, divine love in a human form.

How great a love has God for us that He stepped down from His throne and became one of us. Our Lord, His majesty Jesus, spent thirty years living with a deeply sinful and dangerous, nation of people. People that opposed Him every step of the way. Did Jesus respond with wrath? Certainly not, Jesus forgave, as divine love always does.

Jesus then went far beyond our human understanding in sacrificing Himself for us.

That is not what we do, when someone offends us or hurts us, we respond not with compassion or forgiveness. We respond as humanity has always responded with hate.

The overriding attribute that God has revealed in the New Testament about Himself. Is that unconditional love towards His creation. A love that I still don't understand fully comprehend.

Is there any other way to understand God than the statement, God is love!

Three little words .... with a HUGE HUGE HUGE meaning.

Amazing .... God of the universe vacated His throne and became one of us ... and provided the way back to Him by giving His own life ... mind boggling actually ;o) Praise God! Thank you Jesus!!!!

A love that I still don't understand fully comprehend.

I agree .... I am thankful He does ;o)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Three little words .... with a HUGE HUGE HUGE meaning.

Amazing .... God of the universe vacated His throne and became one of us ... and provided the way back to Him by giving His own life ... mind boggling actually ;o) Praise God! Thank you Jesus!!!!



I agree .... I am thankful He does ;o)
A mind blowing revelation, GOD IS LOVE. Is there anything else in the scripture of note?
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,641
7,851
63
Martinez
✟903,264.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the end, does it really matter which version is correct? We both have the right ideas on salvation, (salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone). Humans will never believe the ultimate truth and are probably miles away from grasping it. Sure, we have the Bible and Calvinism takes the cake at applying the whole Bible towards its practice and theology instead of cherry picking verses as the Arminians tend to do.

Not that our Theological differences matter. And across most denominations many people people cling to Christ and apply their Bibles to their lives. A great Priest or Pastor can guide people who are lost in a Biblical sense. Not to mention there's been great Theologians on Calvin's side and on Jacob's side throughout the years who both have put forth some great points for both sides. So it doesn't really matter which side is right does it?
It does matter. Most Calvinists I have come across struggle with doubt.
Blessings.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It does matter. Most Calvinists I have come across struggle with doubt.
Blessings.
No such thing as a Calvinist.

A Calvinist does not know if they are saved.

They may not be one of the elect, never chosen, just deceived.

Israel were the chosen, an elect nation but most of them were not saved.

If you use the axiom of the sovereignty of God as the platform for understanding the scripture. You may misunderstand the predestined, revelation of the Christ to humanity.

From Genesis to Revelation it was always all about Jesus Christ.

John 5:39
You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me.

Jesus is way above theology.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,254
4,227
37
US
✟918,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
One correction and a question.

You stated, "salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone", that is not actually correct.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not salvation is by faith.

What happens if both Calvinism and Arminianism are incorrect?

Right.. *blush* I'll go fix it, If both are wrong theologically I don't think it would make a difference. Neither are spewing out heresy or blatantly bad things. Except maybe promoting the idea that man can save himself and taking things that far. But I dont think Arminians believe that man can save themselves per se. Don't know on that one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
58
New England
✟489,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Good Day.

I am with Whitfield on this:

George Whitfield said, “We are all born Arminians.” It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.

I had a dear Pastor that was a close friend good old Baptist. He use to say he was 3.5 point Calvinist I would remind him that God was not done with him yet, and that Grace was truly amazing. We would just rib each other I miss that with him.

In Him,

Bill
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,182
1,808
✟801,184.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We know:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 1 Tim. 2: 1-6

If God desires all men to be saved, as I believe 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 declares, and not everyone is saved, those two axioms, seem contradictory. So how does one interpret 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 without concluding that God does not desire all to be saved.

The only way Calvinism interpret 2 Peter and 1 Timothy is to say Peter and Paul are only talking to those already saved (elect), and walkway, but even though Paul and Peter are addressing just Christians, does not mean they are not presenting a truth about God’s Love for all people who ever lived (this is the Love we are to have for all people). Paul is definitely addressing no Christians in the context talking about praying for “all people” and including “kings and all in authority” and “one God” would include non-Christians also.

By saying God is not wanting and is not patient with the non-elect to have knowledge, be saved, repent, and not perish, means God is not “Loving” toward the lost, yet “Loving” toward other lost sinners. We are to Love everyone and I really try to Love all and desiring none to be lost, perish, not have knowledge, and not repent.

The answer to God’s selection mechanism has nothing to do with some being worthy, deserving, righteous, honorable or “better” then other people not saved. It all starts with why God made humans in the first place and man’s objective while here on earth:

There are just somethings God cannot do, since they are impossible to do, like:

Create a clone of Jesus (Jesus is not a “made” individual, but is deity which has always existed), you just cannot “make” something that has always existed. Jesus is thus perfect, where made individuals can only be made as good as any being could be made (very good by God’s standard).

We are made “very good”, so what is the really important thing we lack that keeps us from being “perfect” like Christ is perfect? This goes back to our earthly objective, what we are here on earth to try to obtain and it is nothing we can work for, deserve, earn, or payback, so it can only come to us as a pure undeserving gift, which we have to humbly accept it as pure undeserved charity.

The greatest gift God could give us is to be like He is and that is Love. God is doing and allowing everything to help us humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, His Love, so, we can Love like He Loves.

The “problem” is Godly type Love cannot be planted into a human (made instinctive to humans) since that would not be Godly type Love but a robotic type Love (a knee jerk reaction). And, Godly type Love cannot be forced on a person making them accept it, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. It would not be loving on God’s part nor would the Love we received be Godly type Love.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50. Sin is made unbelievably huge so the forgiveness is unbelievably huge resulting in an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The real issue is with the fact humans have a hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (no one likes to take charity and will do almost anything to avoid taking charity). Accepting charity is like the opposite of working to obtain something, but that is the only one way to first obtain “Love”. Those teaching God does the selection independent of any human thought, are also saying you do not have to humble accept God’s pure undeserved charity, since you got God’s charity prior to humbly accepting it.

Yes, God is wanting and is offering to everyone eternal life, which comes with accepting forgiveness and Love, but few are willing and wanting to accept this charity, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love (unselfish and unconditional type Love). God does not want unhappy people in heaven (those desiring only a carnal type Love, wanting to be “Loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be).

The ”choice” humans make that provides God with a “reason” for some and not others is not some noble, honorable, deserving, worthy or righteous choice, but the very simple selfish choice to: be macho, hang in there, be a good soldier of satan, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy and even though you hate this enemy just be willing for selfish reasons (sinful reasons) to humbly accept His pure undeserving charity.

As far as “faith” goes, all mature adults have been gifted by with a “natural” faith, which allows them to trust people and things and they can use it to trust in objects made with human hands. Directing this God given “faith” toward a benevolent creator allows the person to have an illogical hope that benevolent Creator might just provide them with some undeserved charity.


Much more can be said this is brief.
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
58
New England
✟489,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We know:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 KJV

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 1 Tim. 2: 1-6

If God desires all men to be saved, as I believe 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 declares, and not everyone is saved, those two axioms, seem contradictory. So how does one interpret 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 without concluding that God does not desire all to be saved.

The only way Calvinism interpret 2 Peter and 1 Timothy is to say Peter and Paul are only talking to those already saved (elect), and walkway, but even though Paul and Peter are addressing just Christians, does not mean they are not presenting a truth about God’s Love for all people who ever lived (this is the Love we are to have for all people). Paul is definitely addressing no Christians in the context talking about praying for “all people” and including “kings and all in authority” and “one God” would include non-Christians also.

By saying God is not wanting and is not patient with the non-elect to have knowledge, be saved, repent, and not perish, means God is not “Loving” toward the lost, yet “Loving” toward other lost sinners. We are to Love everyone and I really try to Love all and desiring none to be lost, perish, not have knowledge, and not repent.

The answer to God’s selection mechanism has nothing to do with some being worthy, deserving, righteous, honorable or “better” then other people not saved. It all starts with why God made humans in the first place and man’s objective while here on earth:

There are just somethings God cannot do, since they are impossible to do, like:

Create a clone of Jesus (Jesus is not a “made” individual, but is deity which has always existed), you just cannot “make” something that has always existed. Jesus is thus perfect, where made individuals can only be made as good as any being could be made (very good by God’s standard).

We are made “very good”, so what is the really important thing we lack that keeps us from being “perfect” like Christ is perfect? This goes back to our earthly objective, what we are here on earth to try to obtain and it is nothing we can work for, deserve, earn, or payback, so it can only come to us as a pure undeserving gift, which we have to humbly accept it as pure undeserved charity.

The greatest gift God could give us is to be like He is and that is Love. God is doing and allowing everything to help us humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, His Love, so, we can Love like He Loves.

The “problem” is Godly type Love cannot be planted into a human (made instinctive to humans) since that would not be Godly type Love but a robotic type Love (a knee jerk reaction). And, Godly type Love cannot be forced on a person making them accept it, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. It would not be loving on God’s part nor would the Love we received be Godly type Love.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50. Sin is made unbelievably huge so the forgiveness is unbelievably huge resulting in an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

The real issue is with the fact humans have a hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (no one likes to take charity and will do almost anything to avoid taking charity). Accepting charity is like the opposite of working to obtain something, but that is the only one way to first obtain “Love”. Those teaching God does the selection independent of any human thought, are also saying you do not have to humble accept God’s pure undeserved charity, since you got God’s charity prior to humbly accepting it.

Yes, God is wanting and is offering to everyone eternal life, which comes with accepting forgiveness and Love, but few are willing and wanting to accept this charity, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love (unselfish and unconditional type Love). God does not want unhappy people in heaven (those desiring only a carnal type Love, wanting to be “Loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be).

The ”choice” humans make that provides God with a “reason” for some and not others is not some noble, honorable, deserving, worthy or righteous choice, but the very simple selfish choice to: be macho, hang in there, be a good soldier of satan, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimp out, give up and surrender to your hated enemy and even though you hate this enemy just be willing for selfish reasons (sinful reasons) to humbly accept His pure undeserving charity.

As far as “faith” goes, all mature adults have been gifted by with a “natural” faith, which allows them to trust people and things and they can use it to trust in objects made with human hands. Directing this God given “faith” toward a benevolent creator allows the person to have an illogical hope that benevolent Creator might just provide them with some undeserved charity.


Much more can be said this is brief.

Good Day,

Greek NT Scholar Thomas Schreiner exegetes the passages you question here:


“Problematic Texts” for Definite Atonement in the Pastoral and General Epistles by Thomas R. Schreiner


In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,182
1,808
✟801,184.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Good Day,

Greek NT Scholar Thomas Schreiner exegetes the passages you question here:


“Problematic Texts” for Definite Atonement in the Pastoral and General Epistles by Thomas R. Schreiner


In Him,

Bill
I read the article and saw many problems with the author assumptions. Lets just start where we might agree:

The author makes a huge assumption: “Christ giving himself as a ransom for “all without exception” is ruled out” because: “his life as a ransom [λύτρον] for many [πολλῶν]” means it was not “all”. The assumption is the ransom payment was made and accepted for “all” or “just some (many)” and all are not saved so it must be for some, but that results from a miss understanding of the ransom payment.

Again, atonement is a huge topic and your author does not address much of what we know and agree to.

We need to start with what we agree to, so show me where my logic is off with the following truism:

When you go up to the nonbelieving sinner do you want Him to accept a doctrine, a book, a church, a philosophy, or are you trying to get the sinner to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified?

If the sinner does accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is set free to enter the kingdom and be with his/her Father, but if the sinner refuses Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child it held back from his/her Father.

A kidnapper could be defined as a person holding a child (or person) away from his/her parents until he is paid an undeserving acceptable ransom.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the author of Hebrews defines Jesus Christ and Him Crucified as a literal ransom and I just said Jesus Christ and Him Crucified is what we want the unbelieving sinner to accept, so are we trying to get the undeserving sinner to accept the undeserving gift (ransom)?

Jesus can be the ransom payment for all kidnappers, but some accept it and some refuse it, so the payment is not limited, but atonement is limited to those kidnappers who accept the payment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
58
New England
✟489,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I read the article and saw many problems with the author assumptions. Lets just start where we might agree:

The author makes a huge assumption: “Christ giving himself as a ransom for “all without exception” is ruled out” because: “his life as a ransom [λύτρον] for many [πολλῶν]” means it was not “all”. The assumption is the ransom payment was made and accepted for “all” or “just some (many)” and all are not saved so it must be for some, but that results from a miss understanding of the ransom payment.

Again, atonement is a huge topic and your author does not address much of what we know and agree to.

We need to start with what we agree to, so show me where my logic is off with the following truism:

When you go up to the nonbelieving sinner do you want Him to accept a doctrine, a book, a church, a philosophy, or are you trying to get the sinner to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified?

If the sinner does accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is set free to enter the kingdom and be with his/her Father, but if the sinner refuses Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child it held back from his/her Father.

A kidnapper could be defined as a person holding a child (or person) away from his/her parents until he is paid an undeserving acceptable ransom.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the author of Hebrews defines Jesus Christ and Him Crucified as a literal ransom and I just said Jesus Christ and Him Crucified is what we want the unbelieving sinner to accept, so are we trying to get the undeserving sinner to accept the undeserving gift (ransom)?

Jesus can be the ransom payment for all kidnappers, but some accept it and some refuse it, so the payment is not limited, but atonement is limited to those kidnappers who accept the payment.

Good Day,

I am not in this thread looking to dig into the "ransom" payment...

Just to point out that there are clear exergies from NT Greek Scholars on the reformed side that have exegeted the text you had questions about.

So when you assert :

"The only way Calvinism interpret 2 Peter and 1 Timothy is to say Peter and Paul are only talking to those already saved (elect), and walkway, but even though Paul and Peter are addressing just Christians, does not mean they are not presenting a truth about God’s Love for all people who ever lived (this is the Love we are to have for all people). Paul is definitely addressing no Christians in the context talking about praying for “all people” and including “kings and all in authority” and “one God” would include non-Christians also."

Clearly the exegesis provided in that link is not what you contend to be the "only way" the text can be interpreted.

In Him,

Bil
 
Upvote 0