Children of wrath by nature vs Vessels of Wrath

Hark said:

So there is a race to be run by faith in Jesus Christ in helping us to follow Him as this involves laying aside every weight & sin daily.

To say that a believer can never sin again after they have been saved is denying the Lord's prayer.

No one will believe you that you have never sinned after salvation. Putting off doing a good deed is sin and not just making boastful plans for tomorrow.



Your emphasis on the believer to never sin in order to be born again and thus saved is void of our hope in Christ for following Him as well as denying Him that we are saved simply by believing in Him as the scripture plainly testifies. Discipleship is required for bearing fruit; not for obtaining salvation.

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Nothing says to lay aside the sin daily.

But regarding the race. Striving for the mastery is to be temperate in all things.

The pretenders are trying to obtain a corruptible crown ( by being born of corruptible seed of the devil by doing evil as their father of lies)

So the Apostles ran certainly ( not uncertainly as the liars) by keeping their body under to subjection...



1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



That is the soul being purified, by obeying the truth through the Spirit to sincere love of the brothers with a PURE HEART OF BELIEF IN CHRIST to be BORN AGAIN.

The old high priests and priests these days, daily need to ask forgiveness for sins, but Christ does not show the way to do daily as them. The way of Christ for us is being holy, harmless, undefiled separate FROM SINNERS, made higher than the heavens..


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Brightfame52 said:

People are not redeemed by Faith. The elect are redeemed by Christs blood, not their faith. And the children of wrath, the vessels of mercy, were redeemed by Christs blood, not their faith.

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Propitiation ( forgiveness of our sins and redemption) is through faith in the blood of Christ..


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Clare73 said:

1) Their disowning Christ is demonstration of the counterfeit faith I presented.

2) Though they are faithless, Christ will be faithful to his threatening to disown them (v.12).
See Romans 3:3, where God is faithful to his promises to punish faithless Israel for unbelief (Romans 3:5).

God's punishment of sin (faithlessness) exhibits his faithfulness to his righteous character.

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The exhortation from Christ to all is to watch, to be faithful and endure, that is the opposite message to being permanently saved, it is to endure instead to be saved, as told.

(These teachings can never be taken away or altered, it wont be possible while a testifier can speak)


Mark 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Hark said:

If the believer suffers loss, his spirit is saved in that day when Jesus judges His House. You have to discern why only the spirit is mentioned as being saved yet through fire. What about the physical body?

So anyone that defiles the temple of God which is the individual believer's physical body, their bodies will be destroyed as in physical death, yet the spirit is saved as thru fire. That explains what has happened to the body. 1 Corinthians 3:17KJV plainly points out the defiling of the temple of God for why God would destroy that physical body.



Again, only the spirit is saved and not the physical body for those that had defiled the temple of God for why God would destroy it with death. Revelation 2:18-25 testify to a church that if they did not repent from fornication ( spiritual ) they would be cast into the bed of the great tribulation as God will judge each church and each believer with death according to their works. Their spirits are saved, but their defiled bodies because of iniquity is left behind to die.

Paul warns that if he did not subjugate the infirmity in the flesh in denying its lust, he too would run the risk of being left behind as a "castaway" in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27KJV and not just lose the rewards of crowns.

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Regarding that opinion, that anyone that defiles the temple of God, and them destroyed in that body but that spirit being saved.


He joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT.

This is how they obey and take heed to flee fornication, they then sin against their own body which is against the body of Christ.

We are to glorify God in our body AND in our spirit...


1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Apart from being many members of one body ( the church ti be presented to Christ holy without spot but without blemish is how we have our bodies and whole selves presented)

Also those in the flesh do not please God, and if the Spirit of Christ is in anyone ( he joined to the Lord is one spirit) their BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN, then the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We are bought with a price as told, to glorify God in our body, THEREFORE WE ARE DEBTORS, not to live after the flesh or we SHALL DIE.

Through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body TO LIVE.....




Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

BNR32FAN said:

technically Paul said by grace thru faith but I don’t think the argument was really worth mentioning because grace is God’s part, faith is our part. I feel like his argument was just a distraction to derail the discussion.

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Not quite true, all is Gods part, measure of faith is given to every man as a spiritual gift..


1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Brightfame52 said:

Redemption is by blood.

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

No redemption by Blood, no faith.

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Good quotes.



Now look closer at the words..



FORASMUCH AS YE KNOW that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ



They know they are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ.



It is the knowledge of salvation given by the remission of our sins ( by the blood of Christ on the cross)

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,





Now Revelation and the new song.


The redeemed are the undefiled. Presented as chaste virgins to Christ, it is told to be PREPARED..




2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.





This is in knowing how we are redeemed, it is in the KNOWLEDGE OF SALVATION, and it is related of course, ( as all words are)that the new song is the song of the same salvation....



Psalm 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord.

Psalm 96:1 O sing unto the Lord a new song: sing unto the Lord, all the earth.
2 Sing unto the Lord, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.

Psalm 98:1 O sing unto the Lord a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

Psalm 149raise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
4 For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.






Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein HE HATH ABOUNDED TOWARDS US in all wisdom and prudence;
9 HAVING MADE KLNOWN UNTO US THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Repeated again for you all in debate, dispute, in strife, you are not displaying the righteousness of God that avoids being children of wrath, but it is fulfilling these..



1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


None of you have shown you know how to be a doer of the word to have the tongue bridled, to be slow to speak and swift to hear, why do you speak on then, it cant show ANYTHING UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW TO AVOID THE WRATH OF MAN SEEING AS THE THREAD IS ABOUT WRATH..

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, LET EVERY MAN BE SWIFT TO HEAR, SLOW TO SPEAK, SLOW TO WRATH:
20 FOR THE WRATH OF MAN WORKETH NOT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY, DECEIVING YOUR OWN SELVES.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 IF ANY MAN AMONG YOU SEEMETH TO BE RELIGIOUS, AND BRIDLETH NOT HIS TONGUE, BUT DECEIVETH HIS OWN HEART, THIS MANS RELIGION IS VAIN.

testifier_uk said:

Not quite true, all is Gods part, measure of faith is given to every man as a spiritual gift..


1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

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Amen but it’s up to us to determine what we do with it. Everyone must make the choice to believe and trust in Christ.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen but it’s up to us to determine what we do with it. Everyone must make the choice to believe and trust in Christ.

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Not all men have faith, God does not giver to them, but to the ones who do something with it..


2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.




They are the planting of the Lord, and not the tares of the devil..



Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen but it’s up to us to determine what we do with it. Everyone must make the choice to believe and trust in Christ.

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What choice do you make when faith is the gift given of God, when the love of God is shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost given unto us, what do you see yourself as choosing ?

Can you actually show a choice in scripture, for us to see what it is you think we choose please?

The word of truth is what makes people trust in Christ.

Then it is up to God we read, if He shall give unto them the spirit of wisdom in the revelation of the knowledge of Him. Then their eyes are enlightened in understanding, to know the hope of the calling.



Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I will say again, if men are not slow to speak and quick to hear, they display thew wrath of men and not the righteousness of God.


We need to receive the engrafted word, which is able to save our souls, men's words and opinions don't do it, but are opposing as meant to be.



1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

testifier_uk said:

Not all men have faith, God does not giver to them, but to the ones who do something with it..


2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.




They are the planting of the Lord, and not the tares of the devil..



Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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You and Romans 12:3 that you just quoted say that God gives a measure of faith to every man.

testifier_uk said:

What choice do you make when faith is the gift given of God, when the love of God is shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost given unto us, what do you see yourself as choosing ?

Can you actually show a choice in scripture, for us to see what it is you think we choose please?

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Peter lost his faith on several occasions when he was walking on water and when he denied Christ 3 times. Anytime we doubt we have lost faith. Some doubt from the very beginning even though God has granted them grace. Romans 2:4-5 is one example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

People who fall away from Christ have lost their faith.

BNR32FAN said:

You and Romans 12:3 that you just quoted say that God gives a measure of faith to every man.

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To all men who God gives faith, it is a gift of the Spirit, and of course not all men have faith.

testifier_uk said:

The word of truth is what makes people trust in Christ.

Then it is up to God we read, if He shall give unto them the spirit of wisdom in the revelation of the knowledge of Him. Then their eyes are enlightened in understanding, to know the hope of the calling.



Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

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Like I said people can still have doubts and fall away.

As I also said, and keep saying, we receive the engrafted word to save our souls, and the quick speaking of men and slow hearing, is them not receiving it, ) not hearing( as faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

testifier_uk said:

To all men who God gives faith, it is a gift of the Spirit, and of course not all men have faith.

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But every man is capable of believing the gospel. Most simply refuse because they prefer the darkness.

BNR32FAN said:

Peter lost his faith on several occasions when he was walking on water and when he denied Christ 3 times. Anytime we doubt we have lost faith. Some doubt from the very beginning even though God has granted them grace. Romans 2:4-5 is one example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

People who fall away from Christ have lost their faith.

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Peter was pre Spirit, as Christ was not yet glorified and faith is a gift of the Spirit..


John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.




Then Peter made up for the denial three times..


John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

testifier_uk said:

I will say again, if men are not slow to speak and quick to hear, they display thew wrath of men and not the righteousness of God.


We need to receive the engrafted word, which is able to save our souls, men's words and opinions don't do it, but are opposing as meant to be.



1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

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I don’t get what your saying here. Are you suggesting that I’m quick to speak and slow to hear?