Children of wrath by nature vs Vessels of Wrath

Brightfame52

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I think your misunderstanding Paul in Ephesians 1:3-5.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:3-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Your reading it as saying that God chose us to be in Christ instead of God chose us who are in Christ. If I were to say that God chose us in Texas that means God chose us who are in Texas not that God chose us to be in Texas.
I think and know you misunderstand Paul.
 
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Brightfame52

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The vessels of destruction receive God’s wrath because they refused to repent and abide in Christ. That’s what separates the redeemed from the unredeemed.
God created the vessels of wrath in order to punish them for their sins.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God created the vessels of wrath in order to punish them for their sins.

Sin is not the determining factor for condemnation, failure to repent is what determines whether one is saved or not because all have sinned.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think and know you misunderstand Paul.

Can you provide any sort of explanation as to why you think my interpretation is incorrect? I provided an explanation why your’s is incorrect.
 
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Clare73

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There can be different kinds of cause. Paul seems to say that we are saved by Christ’s death and resurrection, which applies to us because we are united to Christ in faith. So
both Christ’s action and faith are causes, but in a different way.
Christ's death and resurrection don't apply to us until faith, right?

Faith is the link to the effect, not the cause of the effect, in any way. . . no link, no effect.

To those without the link, the effect matters not, and is no different to them than the effect's non-existence, right?
 
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BNR32FAN

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See Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:25.

Redemption is by faith (not by works) in the blood.

No faith, no redemption even though Christ died.

technically Paul said by grace thru faith but I don’t think the argument was really worth mentioning because grace is God’s part, faith is our part. I feel like his argument was just a distraction to derail the discussion.
 
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Brightfame52

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Sin is not the determining factor for condemnation, failure to repent is what determines whether one is saved or not because all have sinned.
Again,
God created the vessels of wrath in order to punish them for their sins.
 
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Brightfame52

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See Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 3:25.

Redemption is by faith (not by works) in the blood.

No faith, no redemption even though Christ died.
Redemption is by blood.

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

No redemption by Blood, no faith.
 
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Clare73

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Redemption is by blood.
Eph 1:7 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Rev 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every
kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
1 Pet 1:18-19 - 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
No redemption by Blood, no faith.
Yes, they are inexorably linked, you can't have redemption by the blood without faith in the blood. (Romans 3:25).

Redemption through the blood is for all, but not all are redeemed.

No faith, no redemption even though Christ died.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I been explaining since the OP

no you never explain why my interpretation was incorrect because I hadn’t given my interpretation of that verse yet. All you’ve done so far to explain why my interpretation is incorrect is basically said “nuh uh”. I explained why your’s is incorrect.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Again,
God created the vessels of wrath in order to punish them for their sins.

What your saying is that God is not impartial which would mean that He is unjust. The Bible specifically states that God is not partial and He is just.
 
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testifier_uk

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Testifier: "Required to be born again, here are all born again verses for you, it is called looking forward pressing forward towards Christ ( not backwards into disbelief which is sin:

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."



That is not how we are born again and that verse has nothing to do with salvation.






Forwards is looking towards Christ to forget what is behind ( faithlessness and sin)

Looking forward in faith to know Christ and not deny Him ( His name)...


Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


As many as be perfect are thus minded, they also know the Holy scriptures which are able to make them wise to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

All verses are for instruction in righteousness ( for salvation through Christ) that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly made of good works..



2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
 
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testifier_uk

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Your reference below does. Note the emboldened portion of that reference that it is by believing n Him, even in His name, is how we are saved.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.






Believing in the name of Jesus Christ, is when we do not DENY HIS NAME.


The pure have all pure in belief and works.

But the unbelieving are impure and defiled, they profess belief in God but DENY HIM IN WORKS, of abomination and disobedience and morally abandoned unto every good work ( the thread is about these disobedient children of wrath who do not repent)


Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.


Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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testifier_uk

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Salvation is no by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh

Your reference below leaves much out on how one is born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus asked Jesus this question of how this can come about and Jesus explained to him that after His ascension which is after His crucifixion, anyone that believes in Him will be saved.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now for the condemnation.


The ones who believe truly do truly, and their deeds are reproved ( corrected) by God.


The ones who do falsely ( doing evil) are not reproved by God as they did not want to come to the light, ( they loved darkness deeds rather than God)....


John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
 
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testifier_uk

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Testifier: "1 John 3: 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."





Discipleship is separate from salvation; Jesus warned that not every believer that receives the seed will bear fruit.



The apostle John was addressing believers that were believing that sin was no longer sin to them and that they could live in sin for why he was correcting them that we are to walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son as we are to confess our sins if we commit them.



Also, the actual words as told ( no need to not remember the words spoken here) are that the ones who do not do righteousness and love their brother are of the devil.

The next words say they born of God keep themselves from that wicked one ( devil)

The words are clear, no need for any private interpretations that speak our own words and not the words that God actually spoke right there .





All bear fruit, but some bear evil fruit..



Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.


Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
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testifier_uk

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Testifier: Some ( Christians forsaken the right way/false teachers as told) have ceased from sin, some CANNOT CEASE FROM SIN..

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;





I agree but not every believer has been discipled, taught in the word to bear fruit so that their joy may be full. Some sow to the flesh foolishly in reaping corruption while others are offended by the scripture in the ace of the evolution theory for why some no longer believe. Some worry in the face of the cares of this life for why they do not bear fruit but none of these negates their salvation; but they are at risk of being denied by Him unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily per Hebrews 12:1-2.



Why break down the word of God, and replace it with our own words?



Christ suffered in the flesh to succour us from temptation ( nobody believes in God unless they follow all words of SALVATION)

Then we suffer in the flesh ( in belief in Christ) as Christ suffered for us, because that way of Christ suffering in the flesh is for purpose, to also suffer in the flesh in the pattern and way of Christ is to believe in sinning not.


Others are pretenders and have no belief in Christ but speak vain words as told as the quote continues....



2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 
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