The hour is coming and now is....

Bob_1000 said:

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Verse 25 speaks of two different groups of dead people.
1) The "hour is coming group".
2) The "now is group".

The "now is group" are the people who were dead in their trespasses and sins. These dead are the ones that heard His voice and believed Him and were made alive.

The "hour is coming group" are the dead that are in the grave and will hear His voice and be made alive. The "hour" being spoken of here and many other places in scripture is the 9th HOUR.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Do with this what you will, I'm just sharing what the Lord has shown me and hopefully it will help someone else.

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Since verses 28-29 are referring to the physically dead, most people, including me, tend to take verse 25 to be involving the physically alive who are spiritually dead at the time.

Notice what verse 25 says---and they that hear shall live. Shouldn't that mean that not everyone will hear, and the ones that don't, they won't live? A resurrection of the physically dead involve both the saved and the lost living again, and that verses 28-29 indicate all of the physically dead will hear His voice at some point, while verse 25 implies that not everyone will hear His voice, but the ones that do, they shall live.

Bob_1000 said:

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Verse 25 speaks of two different groups of dead people.
1) The "hour is coming group".
2) The "now is group".

The "now is group" are the people who were dead in their trespasses and sins. These dead are the ones that heard His voice and believed Him and were made alive.

The "hour is coming group" are the dead that are in the grave and will hear His voice and be made alive. The "hour" being spoken of here and many other places in scripture is the 9th HOUR.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Do with this what you will, I'm just sharing what the Lord has shown me and hopefully it will help someone else.

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No, verse 25 speaks of only one type of going from death to life, which is going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ. The hour that "now is" referred to the time when Jesus was alive. The "hour is coming" referred to those who would be spiritually saved and go from spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ in the future from that time until the second coming. The bodily resurrection of the dead is not referenced at all until verse 28.

Bob_1000 said:

The resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies. We are not earthly bodies, we are souls having an experience in this realm VIA the earthly bodies.

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The resurrection that will occur at the second coming of Christ has everything to do with raising dead earthly bodies. They will be changed at that time (1 Cor 15:51-54). Only our bodies die, not our souls and spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Notice that this is talking about dead earthly bodies and how they are "sown in corruption" and "raised in incorruption". They are "sown a natural body" and will be "raised a spiritual body". There's nothing about souls there.

This is laid out in perfectly clear easy to understand language in 1 Corinthians 15.

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I agree, but why aren't you understanding it correctly then?

Bob_1000 said:

Dead people that were "now hearing Jesus' voice" would be Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Mary, the other Mary and all the rest of the followers of Christ that were still dead in their trespass and sin while Jesus walked on this earth.

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Errr, not quite. Those in John 5:24 who were hearing and believing had come to spiritual life, and would not be condemned in the coming judgment, since they had already passed from spiritual death to spiritual life. (And as DavidPT noted above, not "all" would be doing this hearing and believing).

John 5:25 changes over to the subject of the physically dead coming to life again. Because of those who were spiritually hearing and believing in John 5:24, they were the spiritually alive ones who could then participate in the physically dead coming to life again in John 5:28-29.

This rising from the dead physically was already "now" going on, because Christ had already authorized His 12 chosen disciples in Matthew 10:8 to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." Not only was there an hour coming in which (some, but not all) the physically dead would hear God's voice and come to life (in Matthew 27:52-53), but there was also a "now is", current, ongoing raising of the physically dead from the graves by the 12 disciples and Christ Himself during His earthly ministry.

Yet Christ went on in John 5:28-29 to say, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth:..." This is ALL the physically dead who would then hear this voice of the Son of God, which would include both good and wicked - in the AD 70 resurrection.

So, we have several "resurrections" discussed in this John 5:24-29 passage.

#1, A spiritual hearing and believing for certain ones who had received a spiritual resurrection.
#2, A "now is" hour for a physical resurrection in those days, which the 12 disciples and Christ were performing for certain individuals in the cities of Israel.
#3, An "hour that is coming" when the physically dead would hear the voice of the Son of God and rise from the dead - in Matthew 27:52-53 on Christ's resurrection day.
#4, A marvelous "hour that is coming" when "ALL" who were physically dead at that time would hear the voice of the Son of God at the judgment, which would give either eternal life to the righteous, or eternal death and destruction to the wicked - in AD 70.

3 Resurrections said:

Errr, not quite. Those in John 5:24 who were hearing and believing had come to spiritual life, and would not be condemned in the coming judgment, since they had already passed from spiritual death to spiritual life. (And as DavidPT noted above, not "all" would be doing this hearing and believing).

John 5:25 changes over to the subject of the physically dead coming to life again. Because of those who were spiritually hearing and believing in John 5:24, they were the spiritually alive ones who could then participate in the physically dead coming to life again in John 5:28-29.

This rising from the dead physically was already "now" going on, because Christ had already authorized His 12 chosen disciples in Matthew 10:8 to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." Not only was there an hour coming in which (some, but not all) the physically dead would hear God's voice and come to life (in Matthew 27:52-53), but there was also a "now is", current, ongoing raising of the physically dead from the graves by the 12 disciples and Christ Himself during His earthly ministry.

Yet Christ went on in John 5:28-29 to say, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth:..." This is ALL the physically dead who would then hear this voice of the Son of God, which would include both good and wicked - in the AD 70 resurrection.

So, we have several "resurrections" discussed in this John 5:24-29 passage.

#1, A spiritual hearing and believing for certain ones who had received a spiritual resurrection.
#2, A "now is" hour for a physical resurrection in those days, which the 12 disciples and Christ were performing for certain individuals in the cities of Israel.
#3, An "hour that is coming" when the physically dead would hear the voice of the Son of God and rise from the dead - in Matthew 27:52-53 on Christ's resurrection day.
#4, A marvelous "hour that is coming" when "ALL" who were physically dead at that time would hear the voice of the Son of God at the judgment, which would give either eternal life to the righteous, or eternal death and destruction to the wicked - in AD 70.

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There was no resurrection of the dead in 70 AD. Do you actually think that Jesus would not speak of the resurrection of anyone who died after 70 AD? In John 5:24-25 Jesus spoke of those who would go from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ. In John 5:28-29 Jesus spoke of a time when all of the dead will be bodily raised. All without exception. That clearly has not yet happened. It will happen at the future second coming of Christ.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you actually think that Jesus would not speak of the resurrection of anyone who died after 70 AD?

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I've never said there was no mention in scripture of a resurrection for those who will have died after AD 70. But Jesus' comments in John 5:25-29 were devoted to imminent events that concerned that generation specifically. "The hour is coming" was on the near horizon for that generation. And Jesus most definitely spoke of a resurrection of the dead at His imminent coming in that generation, which would be in AD 70. Several times, and in very simple, plain language. All of those who had died up until AD 70 would hear the voice of the Son of God in the resurrection found in that John 5:28-29 set of verses.

We are currently waiting on the third coming of Christ with the final resurrection in our distant future.

Spiritual Jew said:

There was no resurrection of the dead in 70 AD. Do you actually think that Jesus would not speak of the resurrection of anyone who died after 70 AD? In John 5:24-25 Jesus spoke of those who would go from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ. In John 5:28-29 Jesus spoke of a time when all of the dead will be bodily raised. All without exception. That clearly has not yet happened. It will happen at the future second coming of Christ.

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3 Resurrections said:

I've never said there was no mention in scripture of a resurrection for those who will have died after AD 70. But Jesus' comments in John 5:25-29 were devoted to imminent events that concerned that generation specifically. "The hour is coming" was on the near horizon for that generation. And Jesus most definitely spoke of a resurrection of the dead at His imminent coming in that generation, which would be in AD 70. Several times, and in very simple, plain language. All of those who had died up until AD 70 would hear the voice of the Son of God in the resurrection found in that John 5:28-29 set of verses.

We are currently waiting on the third coming of Christ with the final resurrection in our distant future.

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Both of you seem to miss the resurrection at the time of the Cross......

You also miss the point those living have to also shed the same corruptible body, to get a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

Do you all think we are actual plants placed in the ground to instantly grow a new body in one future instance? At what point is the symbolism actual reality? Are you all futurist when it comes to the body acting like a plant? Paul said the soul instantly left the corruptible body for a permanent incorruptible physical body. The plant part was only figurative. I guess I am partial preterist when it comes to those in Paradise already having permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Timtofly said:

Both of you seem to miss the resurrection at the time of the Cross......

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You're speaking of Christ's resurrection, yes? Maybe I didn't write that clearly enough...in my point #3, when Christ said in John 5:25 that "the hour is coming...", He was referring to His own resurrection and that of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised that same day. These were not yet "ALL" the dead in the graves that would hear the voice of the Son of God (as referred to later in John 5:28-29), but it was the remnant of only the righteous dead coming to life again on that day as the "First resurrection" in AD 33.

Timtofly said:

You also miss the point those living have to also shed the same corruptible body, to get a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

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I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that nobody gets off this planet alive without dying first. We are all appointed to die the one time (Hebrews 9:27-28), after which the dead bodies of the believers will be altered in a resurrection and judgment event. The corruptible bodies of the believers are then made new into an incorruptible condition having immortality.

3 Resurrections said:

You're speaking of Christ's resurrection, yes? Maybe I didn't write that clearly enough...in my point #3, when Christ said in John 5:25 that "the hour is coming...", He was referring to His own resurrection and that of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised that same day. These were not yet "ALL" the dead in the graves that would hear the voice of the Son of God (as referred to later in John 5:28-29), but it was the remnant of only the righteous dead coming to life again on that day as the "First resurrection" in AD 33.



I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that nobody gets off this planet alive. We are all appointed to die the one time (Hebrews 9:27-28), after which the dead bodies of the believers will be altered in a resurrection and judgment event. The corruptible bodies of the believers are then made new into an incorruptible condition having immortality.

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You still seem unsure that those in Matthew 27, do indeed have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They died once, they do not have to do so again. So is all in Christ, not just partial church here and there, piecemeal.

Timtofly said:

You still seem unsure that those in Matthew 27, do indeed have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They died once, they do not have to do so again

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How are you getting that I am "unsure" that the Matthew 27 resurrected saints had permanent incorruptible physical bodies? I have affirmed that on multiple occasions, but I'll agree to it again if you need me to. Of course they never died again; I have affirmed that also many times over.

Timtofly said:

So is all in Christ, not just partial church here and there, piecemeal

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Sorry, but I don't understand what you are objecting to, the way you have phrased this.

Bob_1000 said:

In the verses above, which verse isn't talking about bare grain aka the soul?

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The "bare grain" or the "seed" is not the soul or spirit - it's the physical body which goes into the ground. The spirit or soul is not buried in the earth. Unlike animals whose spirit goes downward into the grave, the spirit of man goes upward and returns to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 3:21). God who originally gave that spirit and soul then disposes of that spirit wherever He wishes it to go; and on this side of the cross, when a believer's spirit is absent from the body, it is present with the Lord.

Ever since Christ's crucifixion-day ascension, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth; yeah, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, and their works do follow them." Follow their spirit to where? To "depart and be with Christ": to be "present with the Lord", as Paul said in Philippians 1:23 and 2 Corinthians 5:8. Any spirits of the righteous which become present with Christ will then in a later resurrection process be given their own body redeemed from the grave into an incorruptible state that can never die again.

Bob_1000 said:

Why does the context change from spiritual resurrection in verse 25 to bodily resurrection in verse 26? I don't see justification for doing that. Are you basing that view on Jesus raising people from the dead during his earthly ministry?

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It is only the spiritually resurrected ones who hear and believe (John 5:24) who are enabled to be physically resurrected (in John 5:25 and 28-29). Christ and His disciples gave manifold examples of physically raising people from the grave, both during His ministry, and afterward.

It is a slam-dunk for Christ to be able to do this physical raising of a believer's body. Do you remember the lame man lowered through the roof by his friends in Mark 2:1-12? Jesus asked the cynical scribes which was harder, to miraculously heal the man physically, or to heal him spiritually by saying "thy sins be forgiven thee". To give visible, confirming proof that He could heal spiritually, Jesus healed the man physically in front of them all. The one is an assurance of the other.

I'm sure you believe that Jesus can spiritually heal a person and give them a spiritual resurrection to eternal life. Because this is a surety, then the physical resurrection is equally a surety. Which is why in this life we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit as a down payment guarantee (the "earnest of our inheritance"), that our body after death will also be included in a resurrection to eternal life, just like our spirit and soul have been.