Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

fhansen said:
At some point evil will be totally eradicated by His love and our own embracing of that love, or He'll allow those who continue to favor evil to exist separately in the hell they prefer instead.

I think this hints at the "blame the victim" mentality of those who claim that some (most) prefer hell to heaven. As if someone would make a willful choice to be incinerated for all eternity. Ten seconds (even three) in hell would change anyone's mind. Of what value is an eternity there? Meaningless. Hopeless. Torturous. Sadistic. Merciless. Unjust.

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

renniks said:
It's definitely for all. Not all accept it however.

Not all = SOME

Hmm · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
As if someone would make a willful choice to be incinerated for all eternity. Ten seconds (even three) in hell would change anyone's mind.

It's hard to see why anyone would do this once God has managed to reveal Himself clearly enough to them that they see that He is where their greatest happiness lies. You have to allow this wooing process can continue after death of course. Even if they held out for a while, could a finite person hold out against God for all eternity thus thwarting His aim of being "all in all"? Even if someone God, would it be wrong of God to force such people to change their minds or is respecting their freedom really so important? A human father would eventually forcibly intervene if their child went on some kind of sulky hunger strike.

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Hmm said:
It's hard to see why anyone would do this once God has managed to reveal Himself clearly enough to them that they see that He is where their greatest happiness lies. You have to allow this wooing process can continue after death of course. Even if they held out for a while, could a finite person hold out against God for all eternity thus thwarting His aim of being "all in all"? Even if someone God, would it be wrong of God to force such people to change their minds or is respecting their freedom really so important? A human father would eventually forcibly intervene if their child went on some kind of sulky hunger strike.

Exactly.
There seems to be an assumption on the part of many that the afterlife will be business as usual for humankind. That those who have resisted God, or atheists who didn't believe in him, will continue as before to resist and not believe.

As if meeting God would have little effect on a person. Seriously?

Andrewn · Dec 15, 2021

public hermit said:
I was reading through the life of Origen again, last night. He was orthodoxy for a couple hundred years. The only person who didn't like him was an Alexandrian bishop that got his feelings hurt because the people loved Origen. He opened up the Word and they loved him for it.

Some of Origen's writings were presumably condemned in the 5th Ecumenical Council in 553 AD. It seems that that was done to please the Pope of Rome who was otherwise objecting to condemnation of writings by Theodore of Mopsuetia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Ibas of Edessa.

The Oriental Orthodox did not participate in that Council and continue to consider him a great Church Father. Origen was first to apply the word "hypostasis" in describing the Holy Trinity and in his book De Principiis he presented a Trinitarian theology that was adopted 100 years by Pope Athanasius of Alexandria and the Council of Nicaea.

As far as Apocatastasis is concerned, he presented this as a provisional theory, a speculation, and clearly stated that he would not recommend teaching it publicly. Whether we agree with this theory, with a modification of this theory, or completely disagree with it, one should not be condemned for speculation and free thinking that he did not teach publicly as a fact.

public hermit said:
But, more than anything, the early church was much more in touch with the mystery and transcendence of God. The four Cappadocians, who all loved Origen, understood that God is ultimately and always inscrutable. Hard and fast pronouncements about what God can and cannot do were often qualified with the acknowledgement that the divine transcends us and there is virtue in waiting to see.

True, except that there were only 3 Cappadocian bishops, unless you count their sister

.

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
As if meeting God would have little effect on a person. Seriously?

I'm reminded of Saul on the road to Damascus.

The Apostle Paul considered himself to be "the worst of sinners" due to his violent persecution of the church. Yet when Jesus met him on the road to Damascus he was changed in an instant. His response was to ask, "Who are you, Lord?" (Acts 9:5)

Fervent · Dec 15, 2021

This is one of those places where context has to be understood. Luke's gospel is about Jesus as the savior common to mankind, so the statement "all men" is best understood as "not just the jews" rather than in a sense that it means each and every individual will be saved. Jesus is the savior of all mankind, but that doesn't mean all mankind is saved simply that He alone is the path to salvation.

Hmm · Dec 15, 2021

Fervent said:
Jesus is the savior of all mankind, but that doesn't mean all mankind is saved

Strong in Him · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Not all = SOME

God loves ALL.
Jesus died for ALL, not just certain groups/those who had been selected beforehand.
ALL may come to Jesus, without condition.

But not all will do so - either because they don't hear the Gospel, they don't understand the Gospel, they are unable (for whatever reason) to respond to the Gospel, or because they choose not to do so.
If they choose not to do so, is that because they have pre-conceived ideas about the church and what responding to the Gospel will mean? Or do they have a very good idea of what it will mean, but are not ready to repent and live their lives for Jesus?

I don't know about that latter point. I do agree that if anyone were to have a road-to-Damascus type experience, it would be very hard to ignore and walk away afterwards. But how many meet Christ like that?
That's why, ultimately, it is for God to judge who has been saved and who hasn't. I, for one, have no idea what a lifelong atheist might go through, think about or encounter on his death bed; God does.
The very fact that Jesus talks about some perishing, or not having eternal life tells me that some won't be saved - it would also make no sense to talk about repentance before death if there was a chance for repentance afterwards.

So, yes, Christ is for ALL; yet not all will be saved.

Clare73 · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Oops, that's not what it says.
Luke 2:10 KJV
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Ah... good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.
How can the advent of Christ be good news for ALL people unless it truly is for ALL people?

It's not the advent, its the "Savior" that is the good news.

And when did
"Christ died to save from God's wrath on sin, and you can receive this gift through faith in Jesus Christ"
stop being good news for ALL people?

Bruce Leiter · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Oops, that's not what it says.

Luke 2:10 KJV
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Ah... good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.

How can the advent of Christ be good news for ALL people unless it truly is for ALL people?

Jesus was sent for a specific purpose. Did he succeed, or fail?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

It is announced to all people, as Christians are supposed to do through their witnessing, which is the extension of Jesus' work on earth; but it is not accepted by all people because they try to drown out his message with their selfish pursuits. God has his plan for everyone, but people are also responsible when they reject or ignore him.

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
I do agree that if anyone were to have a road-to-Damascus type experience, it would be very hard to ignore and walk away afterwards. But how many meet Christ like that?

Everyone meets Christ in the afterlife. EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess...

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Bruce Leiter said:
It is announced to all people, as Christians are supposed to do through their witnessing, which is the extension of Jesus' work on earth; but it is not accepted by all people because they try to drown out his message with their selfish pursuits. God has his plan for everyone, but people are also responsible when they reject or ignore him.

Where's the great joy in that?

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
So, yes, Christ is for ALL; yet not all will be saved.

You seem to be saying that salvation is from us somehow?

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Strong in Him · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Everyone meets Christ in the afterlife. EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess...

Yes - but that doesn't mean that those who died in their sins will be forgiven.

People will meet with Christ, realise he is who Christians said that he was and that since they rejected him as Saviour, they have to face him as judge.
There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth - because it will be too late to repent. They will have to confess him as Lord; they will see him as he is. But the verse doesn't say that when they do so, they will also be forgiven.

Hmm · Dec 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
it would also make no sense to talk about repentance before death if there was a chance for repentance afterwards.

Aren't these verse saying that there is the chance for repentance after death? What would be the point of Christ preaching to the dead if there wasn't?

1 Peter 3.18-20a
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago...

1 Peter 4.6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Saint Steven · Dec 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Yes - but that doesn't mean that those who died in their sins will be forgiven.

People will meet with Christ, realise he is who Christians said that he was and that since they rejected him as Saviour, they have to face him as judge.
There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth - because it will be too late to repent. They will have to confess him as Lord; they will see him as he is. But the verse doesn't say that when they do so, they will also be forgiven.

Here's what I know about that. Please note the definition of "acknowledge" (confess) near the bottom of the post. Thanks.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Fervent · Dec 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Everyone meets Christ in the afterlife. EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess...

theres a famous quote "every heretic has his verse"

Strong in Him · Dec 16, 2021

Saint Steven said:
You seem to be saying that salvation is from us somehow?

Of course it's not.
Salvation is from GOD. It was his plan and idea; we did, and can, do nothing to initiate, earn or deserve it. He offers it to us - one might almost say as a gift, Romans 6:23.

But we need to receive it. It is not like rain that falls down onto everyone, whether they want it or not. If God was going to force everyone to be saved, we would all be puppets. He might as well have made it so that we would never have sinned in the first place, then salvation would not have been needed.

Strong in Him · Dec 16, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Here's what I know about that. Please note the definition of "acknowledge" (confess) near the bottom of the post. Thanks.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

When we meet with God after death they will see him as he is; King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Non Christians will know him and be able to see him face to face. They will have no choice but to acknowledge who he is, and that they had been wrong.
That does not mean that they will be able to confess their sins, repent and ask for eternal life. They will know that Jesus was Saviour of the world, but he hadn't been their Saviour.
Paul says, "we live by faith, not by sight", 2 Corinthians 5:7.
Have a look at Hebrews 11 to see how God values faith and those who live by faith.
When people see Jesus after death there will be no need for faith - he will be right there, in all his glory.

Saint Steven said:
No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

In this life; no, we can't.
It takes faith to believe in and accept Jesus, and submission to be able to declare him as Lord.

Saint Steven said:
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.

In this life; yes.
It does not say, that everyone who has failed to receive Christ by faith in this life will be able to do so after they die - when they will see him face to face and need no faith to believe that he exists.

I don't see any verses in Scripture that say, "repent and believe - if you want to. But if you don't, that's fine; you will be able to do so after you die, and still receive eternal life."

Saint Steven said:
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Of course people will be able to acknowledge, confess, agree who Christ is when they see him face to face in all his glory.
It's whether they see and recognise him now that's important.

When Jesus cast demons out of people, the demons were forbidden from speaking because they knew who Jesus was, Mark 1:34. On one occasion we are told that a demon recognised him, "I know who you are; the Holy One of God", Mark 1:24. Demons recognised Jesus and had to submit to his authority and Lordship - does that mean they were saved?
James says that even demons believe, and tremble. That belief does not save them.

Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

You can call me Steve

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Great is thy faithfulness

Blood-bought

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Great is thy faithfulness

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

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Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

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