Suicide

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
King Saul... (also without the Spirit indwelling)

King Saul once had the Spirit, but the Spirit departed from him. He later went to a witch, and committed suicide because God would no longer answer him. This disproves Calvinism or the belief that we cannot lose our salvation.

Hammster · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

The problem is that if God lets a believer into His Kingdom for committing suicide (without them having a chance to confess of this sin before they died), then God would have to let believers commit all kinds of other gross sins without seeking forgiveness of such sins and let them into the Kingdom, too. Meaning, a person can be living in fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, hate, etc. and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus. However, God would have to agree with sin in order to make this kind of plan of salvation work. But God is holy, and He cannot break His own rules He gives to us. We are only forgiven of sin if we confess it (1 John 1:9). We only receive mercy if we confess and forsake sin (See: Proverbs 28:13). It may sound harsh or sad to some people, but God is not into justifying any sin in our lives. We have to repent, and turn to God, and not justify sin. If we turn back towards sin or justify sin in some way, that only shows that sin is our Master and not God.

That’s a sad, legalistic way of looking at things which makes us not children of God. It completely ignores the fact that Christ bore our sins and cheapens His sacrifice.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

It’s not legalism to obey God or to agree with His view of sin and salvation according to His Word. We can see that when Saul was made king, the Spirit of God came upon him (1 Samuel 10:10). Then later we learn in the story that the Spirit of God departed from Saul (because of his disobedience) (1 Samuel 16:14). Saul later committed suicide by telling his armor bearer to kill him (1 Samuel 31:4). Suicide is simply self murder. 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Remember, the fall happened by just one sin by Adam. Was that legalism, too? Surely not. God is good and He sets the standard of goodness.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

Did Jesus teach legalism? Jesus said that to look upon a woman in lust can cause one to be in danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (See: Matthew 5:28-30).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

What about idols? Can believers worship idols and be saved while doing so?
Just insert any horrible sin the Bible condemns and that is what we cannot do.
It’s not legalism to obey the Lord our God.
Legalism is only if there is no grace whatsoever.
Grace is there for a new believer. For a person is first saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus. Afterwards, if a believer honestly stumbles in their walk with the Lord, they do have God’s grace to go to again (if they confess of their sins to the Lord Jesus Christ) (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13). However, grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Hammster · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
It’s not legalism to obey God or to agree with His view of sin and salvation according to His Word. We can see that when Saul was made king, the Spirit of God came upon him (1 Samuel 10:10). Then later we learn in the story that the Spirit of God departed from Saul (because of his disobedience) (1 Samuel 16:14). Saul later committed suicide by telling his armor bearer to kill him (1 Samuel 31:4). Suicide is simply self murder. 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Remember, the fall happened by just one sin by Adam. Was that legalism, too? Surely not. God is good and He sets the standard of goodness.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
— John 6:38-39
Stop trying to create a rift in the Trinity.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Site is no longer active)

Hammster · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Site is no longer active)

God doesn’t chose us based on what we do good. That’s what the Pharisees thought.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2021

Actually, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

Also, Jesus said the following, as well.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29)

Hammster · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Actually, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

Also, Jesus said the following, as well.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29)

You may want to look a little deeper. They were legalists who thought doing good would save them.

Sound familiar?

Mark Quayle · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

The problem is that if God lets a believer into His Kingdom for committing suicide (without them having a chance to confess of this sin before they died), then God would have to let believers commit all kinds of other gross sins without seeking forgiveness of such sins and let them into the Kingdom, too. Meaning, a person can be living in fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, hate, etc. and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus. However, God would have to agree with sin in order to make this kind of plan of salvation work. But God is holy, and He cannot break His own rules He gives to us. We are only forgiven of sin if we confess it (1 John 1:9). We only receive mercy if we confess and forsake sin (See: Proverbs 28:13). It may sound harsh or sad to some people, but God is not into justifying any sin in our lives. We have to repent, and turn to God, and not justify sin. If we turn back towards sin or justify sin in some way, that only shows that sin is our Master and not God.

I don't follow you at all there at your first statement, because, God does NOT let a believer into His Kingdom "for" committing suicide. The suicide had nothing to do with why God let him into His Kingdom.

The degree of sin has nothing to do with whether or not a person is forgiven of their sin. Furthermore, if a person is relieved of the penalty of spiritual death, because their guilt has been placed on their savior, the relief includes all their sin. If you honestly think that one sin not having been specifically (per sin) confessed, can you honestly say that at any moment you are without sin? There is always sin you are not yet aware of, because the Spirit has not yet shown it to you. That sin is forgiven, for the redeemed. The confession is indeed general, being specific only to the known (realized) sin.

This is not justifying of sin. Indeed it sounds to me more like you are justifying sin within yourself concerning which you don't know how to be specific. A sin by sin confession does not save. God's GRACE saves.

Mark Quayle · Dec 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
King Saul once had the Spirit, but the Spirit departed from him. He later went to a witch, and committed suicide because God would no longer answer him. This disproves Calvinism or the belief that we cannot lose our salvation.

It does no such thing. The Spirit of God goes where it will and does as it will (John 3). There is nothing to say it cannot accompany one, and even temporarily produce fruit in one, who is not saved.

The Spirit of God produced in Saul no saving faith, as far as we know, (and it is by faith that we are saved). However, even that, we cannot say for sure. It is in God's hands whether Saul was saved.

But I mentioned Saul only because someone said Judas was the only example in Scripture —not to prove any point about whether a suicide can go to heaven.

LUFUTA · Dec 15, 2021

There is no sin that God wouldn't forgive and there dozens of versus to back that like Isiah 43:25
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." I would think in my own personal opinion that a Justly God who has witnessed what one has gone through like your friend to the extent of killing oneself a forgivable sin. Only God himself can weigh someone's soul for He knows all of us in our entirety Luke 12:7 and Jeremiah 1:5

LUFUTA · Dec 15, 2021

There is no sin that God wouldn't forgive and there dozens of versus to back that like Isiah 43:25
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more." I would think in my own personal opinion that a Justly God who has witnessed what one has gone through like your friend to the extent of killing oneself a forgivable sin. Only God himself can weigh someone's soul for He knows all of us in our entirety Luke 12:7 and Jeremiah 1:5

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I don't follow you at all there at your first statement, because, God does NOT let a believer into His Kingdom "for" committing suicide. The suicide had nothing to do with why God let him into His Kingdom.

The degree of sin has nothing to do with whether or not a person is forgiven of their sin. Furthermore, if a person is relieved of the penalty of spiritual death, because their guilt has been placed on their savior, the relief includes all their sin. If you honestly think that one sin not having been specifically (per sin) confessed, can you honestly say that at any moment you are without sin? There is always sin you are not yet aware of, because the Spirit has not yet shown it to you. That sin is forgiven, for the redeemed. The confession is indeed general, being specific only to the known (realized) sin.

This is not justifying of sin. Indeed it sounds to me more like you are justifying sin within yourself concerning which you don't know how to be specific. A sin by sin confession does not save. God's GRACE saves.

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out verses like Revelation 22:14-15 that say, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out verses from our Lord that say, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse that says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse that says: “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse by our Lord that says: “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse by the apostle Paul that says: “
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8:13).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
It does no such thing. The Spirit of God goes where it will and does as it will (John 3). There is nothing to say it cannot accompany one, and even temporarily produce fruit in one, who is not saved.

The Spirit of God produced in Saul no saving faith, as far as we know, (and it is by faith that we are saved). However, even that, we cannot say for sure. It is in God's hands whether Saul was saved.

But I mentioned Saul only because someone said Judas was the only example in Scripture —not to prove any point about whether a suicide can go to heaven.

Again, suicide is self murder. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. You either believe this verse or you don’t. The other verses referring to King Saul, and Judas only corroborates the truth.

Bruce Leiter · Dec 15, 2021

RJ Howard said:
If a person was severely depressed or mentally ill and not thinking straight, could that person still get into heaven if they killed themselves. And no I am not by any means planning to do that.

I learned that a few years back a friend of mine (not a close friend) commited suicide. I don't know the reasoning behind this but I'm assuming it was mental illness of some type.

When I was experiencing major depression, it was like descending into a deep, dark hole with no seeming escape. God gave me the escape by healing me for more than three decades.

I can see how someone might be tempted to commit suicide. Thankfully, I never had such desires.

However, suicide is not the unforgivable sin; a whole life of rebellion against God is. If a suicide victim is a genuine believer, even that sin is forgiven with Jesus' death.

Strong in Him · Dec 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, suicide is self murder.

And yet some depressed people genuinely believe that their families/friends/communities would be better off without them - "it would be better for them if I were not here."
You could say that they were ending their life believing that they were helping someone else/performing a service. I had a neighbour who had received death threats against himself and his family and he felt that taking his life was the only way to keep them safe; so he did.
If they weren't depressed/mentally ill they might not even think of such a thing.

I have even heard non Christians saying that Jesus took his own life by going to the cross - he died for us, to set us free. I don't agree with the "taking his own life" bit, but I can see why they might say that.

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out verses like Revelation 22:14-15 that say, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out verses from our Lord that say, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse that says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse that says: “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse by our Lord that says: “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

With this line of thinking: You might as well throw out the verse by the apostle Paul that says: “
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Romans 8:13).

So, I guess, by your thinking, if you are not aware of sin within you it is not sin? If you have the habit of anger and don't see anything wrong with it, it is therefore not sin? Your salvation does not depend on your having confessed every sin, but on the Grace of God.

By the way, this does not depart from any of the verses you quoted. If anyone continues in sin, they are not saved. If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9). So how is he to cleanse us from all unrighteousness if we have no unrighteousness? Notice that the Greek allows for, (and some say the tense demands), what I highlighted in bold, past completed action contingent on present act. We confess, of course we do, but we are not our own judges. God is.

To me it is outrageous that someone would think they actually have no sin (1 Jn 1:8), as though they are aware of everything wrong about them, and have confessed it! "Let me see what your wife thinks of that!"

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, suicide is self murder. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. You either believe this verse or you don’t. The other verses referring to King Saul, and Judas only corroborates the truth.

Suicide is indeed self murder. But salvation does not come and go with each sin. Your very definition of salvation is faulty. This is the work of God, not man. It is a SURE thing, because it is not dependent on the work of man.

Suicide

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

New Member

New Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

Great is thy faithfulness

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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