Are Marian apparitions from God?

Hammster said:

So because the disciples, who were standing with Christ, knew who Moses and Elijah were, we should just trust these stories of Mary? And by the way, I’m still waiting for you to back up your claim that folks have actually seen Mary.

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You were saying there was no comparison between apparitions of Mary and the apparition of Moses and Elijah. But they compare well.

As to trusting every claimed apparition, not even the Catholic Church does that. Some are accepted after investigation, with the claim that they are safe to accept. Others are judged either false or else simply not confirmed. It's kind of a 'guilty until proven innocent' thing. If the apparition flunks any part of the test it is not approved.

My claim is true that others have claimed to see the Virgin Mary. They have. Those various claims have been found acceptable some to the Greek Orthodox, some to the Coptic Christians in Egypt, and some to the Catholics. So it's not like it;s just a Catholic thing. It's an original Christianity thing. And in the post above I have included a link to a list of such approved apparitions.

You didn't give any idea where you think the body of Moses is. Or the body of Elijah. Or the body of Mary. Any idea?

Hammster said:

Maybe, because they were right there, they heard Jesus address them.

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What does the Bible alone say about it?

Hammster said:

Wow. Amazing. You are comparing stories within the last 500 years to inspired scripture. And here I was in doubt.

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I am pointing out to you that your complaint about getting things from me third hand would be about the same as someone else complaining to you about getting things third hand if you handed them the Gospel of Luke. Please read for content. I accept the Gospel of Luke as God's truth because the Catholic Church says it is true. That's exactly the rationale that Augustine used. He believed the Bible because the Church said it was true. And you are amazed.

I think it all boils down to you being unable to see what you refuse to see. And the noble Bereans at least investigated what Paul said, new stuff a bit beyond their comfort level, to see if it was true. You have been far more hermetically sealed than they were. It would be as if the Bereans said the whole idea of Jesus is impossible, therefore he didn't exist. They at least explored it with open minds and open Bibles.

Hammster said:

How would I know where their bodies are? And why would I care?

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I think you have concluded our discussion here. Your position is clear. There can be no apparitions of Mary because there can be no such thing because there can be no such thing. It's probably too Catholic for you. Or Orthodox. Or Coptic. Creepy unreformed sorts of people believing in creepy stuff. If we go on you will just get mad at me for being 'a liar' posting on CF. Have I got that about right?

Hammster said:

I think it’s been concluded since you’ve offered up no credible evidence.

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I doubt there is anything you would accept as credible evidence.

Hammster said:

That’s a cop out.

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Nope. It is discernment from everything you've posted on this topic.

chevyontheriver said:

Of course. Some don't get it. Even if we try to get them to get it.

OK. Many things come between Christ and some of His people. We ask God to protect us and show us the way.

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Sometimes what the church teaches as okay would make believers doubt what the scripture says as if Jesus did not really mean that.

In the case of making a commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life, my Sunday school class back then misled me to do that as if believing in Jesus Christ was okay, but one can do more. Only thing is, it led me to resorting to my flesh because it is my commitment & I told God & men that I was going to do it. Scripture does not have Jesus asking anyone to make a commitment nor a promise to follow Him. Instead..

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

If we could not save ourselves then neither can we follow Him by our will or our flesh as if keeping a promise is how we can live the Christian life in following Him.

After that bondage and others added to it as my life went on, He finally set me free to rest in Him & His Covenant to me that He will do it.

If one reads Luke 9:23, and compare being lost in a cave and your light is out, when someone comes along with a light to offer you to help you out of the cave, that person is basically asking you to deny yourself as able to do it and trust him to do it.

We know Galatians 5:1 speaks against bondages & Jesus warned against it in Matthew 5:33-37 for we cannot do His work in us per verse 36, but little did the church apply it.

Yes, that means Billy Graham has led many astray by giving an altar call that is the opposite of the gospel he had just preached. Rather than say if you do not believe you are saved, if you had called upon the name of the Lord, believe you are saved, but instead. Billy Graham has said "if you are not sure you are saved, make a commitment to follow Christ".

Yet before he had said in presenting the gospel that it is not keeping the Ten Commandments that is going to save you. It is not going to church every Sunday that is going to save you. It is all those who called upon the name of the Lord that shall save you.

So the altar call is the opposite of the gospel message he had preached. He spoke against resorting to our own power and then told us how we are saved by calling on the name of the Lord but switched right back to us saving ourselves by keeping that commitment to follow Christ as if by keeping it will give any one assurance of salvation. It does not because by that commitment to follow Christ is the knowledge of sin so no one will be justified by keeping that commitment.

If Jesus meant for us to look to ourselves under the law for the power in following Him, He would have plainly said so but instead...

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That is why it is written that the just shall live by faith; not just believing we are saved for believing in Jesus Christ but also believing Him to be our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him.

That is how we live this reconciled relationship with God and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Anyway, this is an example for how a church teaching can get in the way of His words because I believed the church knew what it was doing, but the scripture proved otherwise.

So now I look to Jesus Christ daily to help me lay aside every weight & sin in following Him. He does a better job than me for why I would give the Father thanksgivings in Jesus's name.

chevyontheriver said:

I think you are a little bit all wet on your understanding of Catholics and salvation. Just sayin'. We are a whole lot better off than all of those people who are erroneously certain of their salvation. And there are people who are sure they are saved. And wrong. I'm hoping you are not one of them with a false security of salvation.

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Salvation is a free gift; it cannot be earned nor kept by our effort or willpower. Take for example a former believer who would verbally deny Christ. Unless he repents, he risks being denied by Him when the Bridegroom comes, BUT He is faithful for He still abides in that former believer, hence still saved.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Paul goes on to give an example of a former believer who is yet still saved.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Now any iniquity that denies Him, the believer risk being denied by Him.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So any believer still in iniquity when He comes, run the risk of being left behind to die, with their spirits with the Lord, but to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

So discipleship is separate from salvation. We have to be saved to have Jesus Christ in us so we can run that race by faith in Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily. Hebrews 12:1-2 Otherwise, the consequence for not abiding in Him is severe, being left behind to die ( John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 ), only to be resurrected forever as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. It is a damnation because they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once that door to the Marriage super is shut for why there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 ( note verse 12 for those that have gone astray ). This is why God has to wipe the tears from their eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation to help them get past that loss per Revelation 7:13-17 They will serve the King of kings from all over the world in raising up the generations in the 1000 year reign per Revelation 20:1-6.

But it would be better for believers now to go to Jesus Christ in prayer for help to discern the iniquities that they may be in ( heresy is a work of the flesh ) as well as any sin they may not be aware of that is a sin so He can help them lay aside every weight & sin in running that race by faith in Him to finish.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure,,,,8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So you & I are saved ever since we had believed in Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead, but now we need to apply faith in Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him because Jesus is the only way we can live that reconciled relationship with God.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Saint Steven said:

Do you also have scripture to show that Mary is real?

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What is the point of some of your questions? Under your username it indicates that you are a Christian. Why then is one Christian, meaning you in this case, asking other Christians questions like this?

chevyontheriver said:

I think you are a little bit all wet on your understanding of Catholics and salvation. ......

Agreed. The Church is not my hope. Jesus is. And yet he founded His Church.

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The Catholic Catechism says otherwise.

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it.... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained......

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." the Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

Look at this header in that catechism.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Basically, they are saying that any believer no longer staying in the Catholic Church are not saved.

Now pay attention to what they say about unbelievers.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

So why convert unbelievers? Catholics are probably wonder why they bother to join the church to obtain the means for sanctification & holiness to run that rat race but if they do not persevere in charity, they are not saved. By the catechism, better to not be converted.

I can see why the Vatican & the early church in Rome had it this way because unbelievers would be mad in Rome when hearing Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved in going to Heaven. The church would be having a constant protest and angry mob at their doorstep. And yet, they want to keep their Catholic members.

Anyway, there is just cause for why I believe what Catholics believe per their catechism.

Can you explain to me by what was posted from the catechism how a Catholic that knows the catechism, can still say that their hope is not in their Church, but in Jesus Christ? I have heard of "cafeteria" Catholics where they do not believe in everything the Catholic catechism teaches, but I pretty much assign everything Catholic per their Catholic catechism when referring to Catholicism.

That is not to say I judge all Catholics as being devout since I acknowledge cafeteria Catholics, but when addressing the issue of Catholicism for what the Catholic Church represents per their official Catholic Catechism, it is to the core belief I refer to rather than individual Catholics.

TruthSeek3r said:

Should Christians expect legitimate Marian apparitions, sent by God, from time to time?

Are Marian apparitions simply hallucinations / tricks of the mind?

Are Marian apparitions real but from the "dark side"?

As my username indicates, I'm honestly interested in the truth. What is the truth in this matter?

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Just wanted to clarify this my friend I believe your referring to aliens not exactly Martians. Martians are exclusively from Mars.

Hark said:

Salvation is a free gift; it cannot be earned nor kept by our effort or willpower. Take for example a former believer who would verbally deny Christ. Unless he repents, he risks being denied by Him when the Bridegroom comes, BUT He is faithful for He still abides in that former believer, hence still saved.

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Thank you for your long and sincere reply. I know this issue is argued back and forth even among Protestants themselves. My position is that it is possible to alienate myself from God. God will not violate my will to save me if I would wish to refuse Him. I have zero intention of ever refusing the grace God has given me, and so neither you nor I need worry about me. God has me. But some people are convinced they are saved. They are assured in their own minds. Are 100% of them actually correct in their assurance so that they can go live profligate lives? Or for that matter backslidden lives? I think it unwise to tell them how they live their lives matters not. I think telling me it does not matter whether I stay in obedience to my Lord doesn’t matter is also dangerous. Again, thank you for your post. On this we differ. I very much liked your prior post. And as to the general discussions in this thread, I think it’s wrapping up now with no agreeable conclusion possible. On that I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.