Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture?

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

Daniel9v9 said:
Yes, the Holy Spirit is worshipped in the Scriptures themselves, but it may not be particularly obvious!

The first thing we can recognise is that the Holy Spirit is called God in Genesis 1:2, Matthew 28:19-20, and Acts 5:3-4. And when we read in Isaiah and Revelation the worship of God as "Holy, holy, holy", we should understand that to be both high and perfect adoration of God and trinitarian worship. The Holy Spirit is included in this worship. We can know this, because there is only one God: YHWH, and our Lord Jesus Christ is anointed with the Holy Spirit, and one with the Father, and He has graciously given us the gift of Baptism into the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God.

The name of the Father & the Son, & the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ. In Acts, they baptized in Jesus's name and not spelled out as such in Matthew 28:19.

The only reason it is not so particularly obvious is because there are scripture telling us otherwise. This is not to testify that the Holy Spirit is not God, but to testify what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do as the Divine Witness through us which is to lead us not to speak of ourselves nor the Holy Spirit, Himself, but of the Son in seeking His glory and that is how the Holy Spirit & us are faithful witnesses when we do as the Holy Spirit leads us to do in what He has been sent to do.

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory les there be unrighteousness in him per John 5:31 & John 7:18. This is true for the Holy Spirit as there can be no unrighteousness in God.

John 15:26-27 testify to Who the Holy Spirit will testify of and that is through us. The point of testifying of the Son is to seek His glory per John 16:13-14. The Holy Spirit will not witness in any other way so when believers testify of the Holy Spirit in seeking His glory, even in worship, they do so as not led by the Holy Spirit to do.

In the world of sinners by how they worship spirits & address the spirit, he only way God the Father can call them away from that rudiment and practice is to provide only one way to come to the Father & that is by the only way of the Son. That way, sinners know they are coming to God the Father and not those spirits they are repenting from. The church can know that these sinners have repented by not praying to or calling for the spirit to come into the worship place.

So whenever God is worshipped, He is worshipped in Trinity, as one God. We cannot worship God the Father only, or Jesus only, or the Holy Spirit only, for there is only one God, and in Christ, the whole fullness of the deity dwells bodily. He is YHWH in flesh. So we can pray to and worship the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit, for by doing so, we worship the one true God.

The Holy Spirit is God, but when you heed His words as the Son is the only way to come to God the father by per John 14:6 and how only the Son answers prayers once He has the Father's approval, per John 14:13-14, and any part the Holy Spirit does in ministry or the answers to prayers, He defers all credit & glory to the Son per John 16:13-15 and so should we as well in honoring the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

EDIT: Maybe to add to this one more thing — there's a reason why the Holy Spirit is somewhat silent throughout the Scriptures. Our Lord tells us in John 15:26 that the Holy Spirit has come to testify about Jesus. So the Holy Spirit always draws us to the Son. He grants us repentance and faith in the person and works of Jesus Christ.

Blessings!

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is the Father that draws sinners unto the Son as specified by scripture.

It is the Father that hides the truth from some & reveals His Son to others, even unto babes.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So the Father knows who seeks Him from those that prefer their evil deeds for why He does not reveal His Son to them at that time. That means our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God the Father & our salvation is the work of The Father & the Son.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So let us heed His words and honor Whom the Holy Spirit has been sent to dwell in us to honor & that is the Son and to give credit where credit is due for the drawing which is the Father.

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

disciple Clint said:
Should We Worship the Holy Spirit?

See post # 26 in this thread for why there are no scripture teaching that practice but there are scripture explaining why there are no scripture teaching believers to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

The Father is specific on how we are to honor Him and that is by only honoring the Son as that judgment is over every believer per John 5:22-23

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

There is no wiggle room for the Holy Spirit and since He has been sent to dwell within us to testify of the Son thru us ( John 15:26-27 ) to glorify the Son ( John 16:13-14 ) then how can we be led by the Holy Spirit in any other way in worship?

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The mind of Christ we are to have in worship is given for what Paul was stressing obedience to do in his absence.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Sinners in the world that addresses spirits behind the idols and directly as mediums do, is why the only way to come to God the Father in worship is by the only way provided; His Son. Believers need to heed His words and narrow the way back to the straight gate; the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only way so sinners can know they are not relating to their former spirits and the church can know they have repented for why there should be no rudiment in addressing the Spirit in worship when the Holy Spirit would not lead us to do that and it would be dishonoring the Son & the Father when honoring the Son is the only way to honor the Father in worship.

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

ReluctantTheologian said:
Rather than reading the Trinity retrospectively back into the 'Holy, Holy, Holy'; we can also look at Revelations 4:8 for a possible more direct explanation of this phrase:

Revelations 4:8

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

Here (probably following the 6th century 'Athanasian' creed) you define the one true God = the Trinity; yet the Nicene creed (325 CE) says:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

Creeds are not always scripture and scriptures can be found to correct errant creeds.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ and He is Our Creator. The request in plural for the creation of man in "our image & in our likeness" was given by Him to the Father so that when the Father agreed, as the One God, God created man in His image by His Son.

His wisdom is needed here because that means the Father has an image & likeness too. So the Godhead is not as simple as man make the One God out to be.

And Jesus himself says:

John 17:3

And this is eternal life, that they may know You (=the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,

That is not to say Jesus is not God. By knowing the Father as God, they will know Jesus as God too. Indeed, no man has seen God at any time, but Jesus did because He is God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

And Paul says writes:

1 Corinthians 8:6

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, ...

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. KJV

The KJV testify the Father & Jesus Christ as God as well.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

.. to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven ..

The texts speak for themselves really I think.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

You may be reading your theology into the texts. Scripture testify to serving the Lord Jesus Christ as that God.

Romans 14:18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Romans 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Colossians 3:24Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Consider this message below; who will be appearing that is confirmed in other scriptures? The Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And yet this appearing designated Jesus Christ as God the Saviour as other scriptures confirms.

Titus 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Once we read scripture without theology getting in the way, He will help us see the truth in His words. I understand how some theology can be read from scripture, but the thing about faulty theology or wrong assumptions in reading His words is that it does not pass all of scripture, and yet we are to prove everything with the help of the Lord Jesus Christ at that throne of grace.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

ReluctantTheologian said:
Always willing to look at verses I may have missed or misinterpreted .. I've studied scriptures a lot on these matters and just humbly feel obliged to respond preferably with answers straight from the Biblical texts rather than a creed formulated almost 500 years after the NT era. The verses mentioned above + the early Nicene creed allow for fairly direct interpretation; and simply head-on collide with the much later 6th century creedal formulation. It's important we recognise and acknowledge that.

It is important to note that not all creeds are scriptural. That is why all creeds should be proven by scripture or reproved if the case may be.

Normally I'm very hesitant to really go beyond terminology found in the Biblical texts; that's why I'm not a fan of the term 'Trinity'. Although I could subscribe to it with the understanding of e.g. Tertullian (2nd century CE), but obviously not the 6th creed retrospectively ascribed to Athanasius (who passed away in the 4th century).

Again, we are to prove everything by Jesus Christ through the scriptures.

GOD is a spirit,

That phrase has been taken out of context a lot by believers so it is no surprise here. Jesus was answering the Samaritan woman's question about which place to worship God at; the mountains as her people did or in Jerusalem as the Jews did, and Jesus's answer was about God not being confined to a specific place of worship as He is omnipresence, meaning they can come to God the Father anywhere now that Jesus has come. By coming to Jesus by honoring the Son in worship is how believers can come to God the Father anywhere.

and the Holy Spirit is GOD's spirit = the spirit Jesus received from GOD:

Acts 2:33 (ESV)

Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. KJV

If you consider that Jesus was not given the Holy Spirit "after" being exalted to the right hand of God, then those words are to be applied to human witnesses as Peter was testifying for all those that believe in Jesus Christ.

Based on purely the English language of the 21st century, we have to object against calling GOD the Father and the Holy Spirit 'persons', because any English dictionary defines a 'person' as a 'human being'. Only Jesus the Son of GOD is a person in that sense; GOD the Father and the Holy Spirit obviously are not (because both are spirits). To keep using the term 'persons' for those two prolongates theological confusion.

The Father has an image and a likeness as well as the Son did, for why the request to make man in our image and our likeness was given. When the Father had agreed, then as the One God, "They" as the Triune God, created man in His image and after His likeness.

That might leave the question whether the Holy Spirit (or GOD's Spirit) is a separate being from GOD himself? I'm not so sure yet, and I am reluctant to make a call on that. I just observe that in all the letters and writing of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit is never explicitly addressed, prayed to or worshipped. That in itself is an important starting point. See e.g.

This is because the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is by His only begotten Son so that sinners can depart from their spirits and their occult practices of addressing spirits to addressing the Father by the way of His Son. That way, sinners know they are approaching God the Father & churches will know sinners had repented.

On top of that - if one studies the developmental history of the Trinity creeds - we can observe the original Nicene creed (325 CE) does not contain a reference to the Holy Spirit as being worshipped independently, but we do see that pop up in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed (381 CE), a significant change.

Jesus did warn of ecumenicalism and those creeds did it by broadening the way in the worship place in how to come to God the Father by; Matthew 7:13-27 and so the solution is to narrow the way back to the straight gate; the Lord Jesus Christ in worship to avoid being left behind. Luke 13:24-30

1 Corinthians 2:10-12 (ESV)

.. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

How does this not testify to what the Spirit does independently by searching everything, even the depths of God?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. KJV

The Holy Spirit is a Person because He can be grieved.

God commands men to not judge any one by a singular witness as 2 or 3 witnesses are required.

Deuteronomy 7:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. KJV

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. KJV

Note the underlined in verse 15 for how the Triune God established a word in creation by His Son.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. KJV

Note how the Triune God judged the people at the tower of Babylon.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. KJV

An agreement from the Father per the request of the Son is how everything was made and how ever one will be judged. The Holy Spirit is of God and of course, in agreement with the Father's will, and so as being an extra Witness within the Godhead is why He is a Person.

The necessity for 2 or 3 witnesses is carried over into the N.T. because it still testifies to how God bears witness as the Triune God and how He will judge as the Triune God.

Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. KJV

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. KJV

From this passage we might conclude we can't really make a sharp distinction between a person and the spirit of that person; or: GOD (a spirit) and the Spirit who is from GOD. I'm just trying to interpret Paul's writing carefully here.

I do realise quite a number of verses exist that use the words 'he/it' to refer to the Holy Spirit, but on the other hand, there are also a lot of verses where the word 'the' is omitted (so the text says '.. holy spirit' instead of 'the holy spirit').

When the Holy Spirit speaks/acts, YHWH himself speaks/acts, there is no distinction. See e.g. Hebrews 10:15-16 quoting Jeremiah 31:33. In Jeremiah YHWH is speaking, yet Hebrews says about the quotation that 'the Holy Spirit testifies'.

This contribution from John Piper is a worthwhile read: Does It Matter Which Person of the Trinity We Pray To?

It does matter because Jesus Christ is at that throne of grace by how we have access to God the Father. Prayers to the Holy Spirit, Mary, and patron saints dishonors the Son as the only Mediator between God and men because they are not at that throne of grace to be answering prayers.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

The Father is not glorified in the Holy Spirit, nor Mary, nor any patron saints for the answers to prayers. The Father is only glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What does that mean other than Jesus is the One that answers prayers per the Father's approval?

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So whatever the Holy Spirt does, the Holy Spirit will defer all credit & glory to the Son in ministry and for answers to prayers.

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

Daniel9v9 said:
I’m sorry to say there is a lot of confusion here. Maybe as a starting point:

(1) Do you believe that Jesus is God? In other words, do you believe Jesus to be YHWH in flesh?

I do.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not......14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(2) Why do you think our Lord instituted Baptism into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

One should consider what that name is that sinners call upon to be saved and be baptized by. The name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost is what? Jesus Christ. If you check with Acts, that is the name that His disciples baptized new believers by. So in practice, the name of the Father & the Son & the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ for how believers are to be literally baptized by & not just call on the name of God to be saved.

Hark · Dec 12, 2021

disciple Clint said:
since you indicate that you are a Reluctant Theologian perhaps you would be interested in what Thomas Aquinas had to say about the Trinity and the Holy Spirit.
The Blessed Trinity
ORIGIN: The question of origin or procession (27). The relations of origin relations of origin (28).
THE PERSONS IN GENERAL: The signification (29) of the word "person". The number (30) of the persons, and what is involved in the number of persons, or is opposed thereto; as diversity, and similitude, and the like (31). Our knowledge (32) of the persons.
FATHER: The person of the Father (33).
SON: The person of the Son, to whom three names are attributed: Son (see 33), the idea of which is gathered from the idea of Father; Word (34) and Image (35).
HOLY GHOST: The person of the Holy Ghost, Who is called three things: Holy Ghost (36), Love (37) and Gift (38).
THE THREE COMPARED: The person in reference to the essence (39), with the relations or properties (40), or to the notional acts (41). The equality and likeness (42) of the persons. Their mission (43).
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prima Pars

Although scripture in the KJV testifies to the 3 Witnesses within the One God directly per 1 John 5:6-9 and sporadically in other places, scripture is clear on how the Father wants us to honor Him by and that is by only honoring the Son ( John 5:22-23 ) which is exactly what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do as the divine Witness in us in testifying of the Son thru us ( John 15:26-27 ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 ).

Kilk1 · Dec 12, 2021

Hark said:
There are no scripture teaching the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but there are scripture testifying to the role of the Holy Spirit as the divine Witness for why He would not lead a believer to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory, but to testify of the Son in seeking His glory.

These are His words for what makes us & the Holy Spirit true witnesses.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Since that is to be true for us as witnesses, so it is with the Holy Spirit. More proof;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So the Holy Spirit's job is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us and that has to include worship & not just ministry.

Consider this as a judgment over each believer as forewarned by Christ Jesus as applicable towards worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So the moment any believer stops honoring the Son in worship, they are no longer honoring the Father, even if it is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God, but scripture tells us specifically how the Father wants to be honored and that is by the only way of the Son as the Holy Spirit leads us in worship to do as the Holy Spirit seeks to do thru us. He is a faithful Witness as we should be too.

Believers read this verse many times, applying his to be about Jesus being the only way for salvation, but They need His wisdom to heed His words that He is the only way to come to the Father by in worship, fellowship, & prayer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So people praying to the Holy Spirit are not honoring the Son as the only Mediator between God and men. People worshipping the Holy Spirit are not led by the Holy Spirit to do that nor are they heeding the Father's will for how He wishes for us to honor Him only by and that is His Son.

They need His help to see the truth in His words for why they need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in coming to God the Father in worship, fellowship, & prayer by the only way of His Son.

Paul ends 2 Corinthians with the following statement (13:14, NKJV, emphasis mine):

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Might this be a prayer to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

Also, in saying that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ, do you believe in Oneness theology, the view that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three modes of God, not separate Persons?

Kilk1 · Dec 12, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
So the examples
13:2 λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ Κυρίῳ καὶ νηστευόντων εἶπε τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ῞Αγιον· (Spirit the Holy)
10:19 τοῦ δὲ Πέτρου διενθυμουμένου περὶ τοῦ ὁράματος εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ Πνεῦμα (the Spirit)
8:29 εἶπε δὲ τὸ Πνεῦμα τῷ Φιλίππῳ (The Spirit)

5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

IMHO, we don't see a direct example of worship of the Holy Spirit for two reasons. First as Pastor Daniel said, we worship God in Trinity rather than separating the hypostasises. Two, the Spirit does not point to Himself but always directs us to Christ who also points us to the Father. Even with Eastern Orthodox prayers where some prayers do get broken into prayers to each hypostasis, the prayer is to be read as a whole.

All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy One, visit and heal our infirmities for Thy name’s sake.

I posted the lyrics to a hymn here: Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture? Does this hymn go too far in singling out the Holy Spirit, in your view, or is it equal enough?

HARK! · Dec 12, 2021

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disciple Clint · Dec 13, 2021

Hark said:
Although scripture in the KJV testifies to the 3 Witnesses within the One God directly per 1 John 5:6-9 and sporadically in other places, scripture is clear on how the Father wants us to honor Him by and that is by only honoring the Son ( John 5:22-23 ) which is exactly what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do as the divine Witness in us in testifying of the Son thru us ( John 15:26-27 ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 ).

OK so the 64 thousand dollar question, Do you accept the Holy Spirit as being God?

Hark · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Paul ends 2 Corinthians with the following statement (13:14, NKJV, emphasis mine):

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Might this be a prayer to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit?

No. It is more of a departing benediction given to the believers rather than a prayer given to God

Also, in saying that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ, do you believe in Oneness theology, the view that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three modes of God, not separate Persons?

I do not believe in Oneness Theology because I believe there are 3 Witnesses within the One God thus Three different Persons and yet One. This is why God commands me to establish a word or a testimony by 2 or 3 witnesses per Deuteronomy 19:15 and not to judge or condemn any one by one singular witness per Deuteronomy 17:6. This is carried over still in the New Testament in Matthew 18:16 & 2 Corinthians 13:1. What God commands of men is how He bears witness of His Son in sending Him per this prophesy ( Isaiah 48:16-17 ) which was fulfilled in Matthew 3:15-17, establish a word in creation per Genesis 1:26-27, & judge the people at the tower of Babylon in Genesis 11th chapter.

Also Jesus said that He could not bear witness of Himself les His witness be not true. John 5:21

There is no unrighteousness in God and so the Holy Spirit & the Father were the perfect Two Witnesses testifying to His Son as God at His water baptism.

1 John 5:7 in the KJV is originally scripture because by taking it out, it begs the question in verse 9 how God's witness in Heaven is greater than men's witness in the earth.

People contend that it was not in the original manuscript or among the Majority texts, but it was in the minority texts. There are extrabiblical debates in the past starting back in 250 A.D. citing 1 John 5:7 as originally scripture. Believers back then has the same problem as today in wrapping their minds around the Three Witnesses within the One God as well as the deity of Christ & so that is why there are not that any manuscripts of the Book of 1 John as well as omitted verses in the case of 1 John 5:7.

But the reason why there are no scripture teaching the practice of the worship of the Holy spirit with the Father & the Son is because of the role of the Holy Spirit in us is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us and that has to include worship.

How can God the Father calls sinners away from their spirits in their idolatries & the occult unless the only way to come to the Father is by the only way of the Son as Jesus meant what He has said in John 14:6 and that the judgment over every believer in john 5:22 is to only honor the Son if any believer wishes to honor the Father in worship in John 5:23 which is exactly what the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do per John 15:26-27 & John 16:14-15.

The Holy Spirit will not lead a believer to testify of Himself nor to honor Himself in worship in seeking His own glory. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but God as God is glorified in His Son; John 13:31-32 Even Paul stressed this obedience in worship in having this mind of Christ in order to glorify God the Father in Philippians 2:5-13

I wished the forum has these references given in KJV rather than the ESV, but if you fail to see my point, see the KJV for those scriptural references.

Hopefully, I have conveyed myself in regards to where I stand by the grace of God & His help in my belief.

Hark · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
I posted the lyrics to a hymn here: Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture? Does this hymn go too far in singling out the Holy Spirit, in your view, or is it equal enough?

There are unscriptural hymns as well as creeds for why we should prove everything by scripture with the Lord's help at that throne of grace.

Are you familiar with slain in the spirit and holy laughter movement? Yet those phenomenon are triggered by addressing the Holy Spirit in worship to come & fall again on the believers. Is God the author of confusion? No. 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 That was not the Holy Spirit then even though they had addressed Him directly in worship.

Why would God permit the strong delusion to occur? Because they dishonored the Father in His request to come to Him by the only way provided and that is by the only way of the Son. Indeed, they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation again and yet 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 is the reproof given for the iniquity at work in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 in causing many to fall away from the faith in Jesus Christ per 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 as that iniquity was even at work in Paul's days in 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

Paul goes on to address those wicked & unreasonable men that have not faith, that do not hold to the traditions taught of us but are "disorderly" that believers were to withdraw from them in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 Hopefully God will peradventure to correct them by the scriptures to recover them from this snare of the devil but if not, then when the Bridegroom comes, they run the risk of being left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House; 2 Timothy 2:18-21 & Revelation 2:18-25 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

Hark · Dec 13, 2021

disciple Clint said:
OK so the 64 thousand dollar question, Do you accept the Holy Spirit as being God?

Yes. Do you accept the role of the Holy Ghost in what He has been sent to do and that is to testify of the Son thru us ( John 15:26-27 ) to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) and that has to include worship?

Did not Jesus warned us of this judgment over every believer that the only way to honor the Father is by only honoring the Son which the holy spirit has been sent to dwell in us to do and lead us to do as well in John 5:22-23?

When we see how sinners are relating to spirits in idolatries & the occults, how can God the Father call them away from those spirts unless the only way provided is by His Son per John 14:6 and not to climb up by any other way per John 10:1. Yet the Nicene creed of 381 A.D., ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles has broadened, had broadened the way in worship by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son ( Matthew 7:13-17 ) for why phenomenon of confusion occurs like slain in the spirit and holy laughter movement when focus is on the Holy Spirit in worship as they lose self control as being the many houses that fall per Matthew 7:24-27 for not heeding His words in John 14:6 John 10:1 & John 5:22-23. They doubt Jesus really meant what He has said thus not heeding His words.

Scripture & the indwelling Holy Ghost points sinners to Christ & still pointing sinners to Christ even afterwards because Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father for anything; worship, fellowship, and prayer.

So the Holy Spirit is God but what does scripture say He will lead us to do? Keep pointing to the Son. So should we. That is what being a disciple of Jesus Christ is all about by the grace of God & His help.

GreekOrthodox · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
I posted the lyrics to a hymn here: Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture? Does this hymn go too far in singling out the Holy Spirit, in your view, or is it equal enough?

Morning Kilk1.
Your link didnt go to anything. Would you repost the lyrics please? Thanks,

Kilk1 · Dec 13, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
Morning Kilk1.
Your link didnt go to anything. Would you repost the lyrics please? Thanks,

Sure thing! The hymn is sung with three stanzas (not including the chorus):

Father, we love You
We worship and adore You
Glorify Thy Name in all the earth

Jesus, we love You
We worship and adore You
Glorify Thy Name in all the earth

Spirit, we love You
We worship and adore You
Glorify Thy Name in all the earth

Would you consider this hymn to be acceptable, or does it separate the Three too much?

Kilk1 · Dec 13, 2021

Hark said:
No. It is more of a departing benediction given to the believers rather than a prayer given to God

I do not believe in Oneness Theology because I believe there are 3 Witnesses within the One God thus Three different Persons and yet One. This is why God commands me to establish a word or a testimony by 2 or 3 witnesses per Deuteronomy 19:15 and not to judge or condemn any one by one singular witness per Deuteronomy 17:6. This is carried over still in the New Testament in Matthew 18:16 & 2 Corinthians 13:1. What God commands of men is how He bears witness of His Son in sending Him per this prophesy ( Isaiah 48:16-17 ) which was fulfilled in Matthew 3:15-17, establish a word in creation per Genesis 1:26-27, & judge the people at the tower of Babylon in Genesis 11th chapter.

Also Jesus said that He could not bear witness of Himself les His witness be not true. John 5:21

There is no unrighteousness in God and so the Holy Spirit & the Father were the perfect Two Witnesses testifying to His Son as God at His water baptism.

1 John 5:7 in the KJV is originally scripture because by taking it out, it begs the question in verse 9 how God's witness in Heaven is greater than men's witness in the earth.

People contend that it was not in the original manuscript or among the Majority texts, but it was in the minority texts. There are extrabiblical debates in the past starting back in 250 A.D. citing 1 John 5:7 as originally scripture. Believers back then has the same problem as today in wrapping their minds around the Three Witnesses within the One God as well as the deity of Christ & so that is why there are not that any manuscripts of the Book of 1 John as well as omitted verses in the case of 1 John 5:7.

But the reason why there are no scripture teaching the practice of the worship of the Holy spirit with the Father & the Son is because of the role of the Holy Spirit in us is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us and that has to include worship.

How can God the Father calls sinners away from their spirits in their idolatries & the occult unless the only way to come to the Father is by the only way of the Son as Jesus meant what He has said in John 14:6 and that the judgment over every believer in john 5:22 is to only honor the Son if any believer wishes to honor the Father in worship in John 5:23 which is exactly what the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do per John 15:26-27 & John 16:14-15.

The Holy Spirit will not lead a believer to testify of Himself nor to honor Himself in worship in seeking His own glory. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but God as God is glorified in His Son; John 13:31-32 Even Paul stressed this obedience in worship in having this mind of Christ in order to glorify God the Father in Philippians 2:5-13

I wished the forum has these references given in KJV rather than the ESV, but if you fail to see my point, see the KJV for those scriptural references.

Hopefully, I have conveyed myself in regards to where I stand by the grace of God & His help in my belief.

It seems Paul is requesting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to bestow the blessings listed on the Corinthians. Albert Barnes writes, "This verse contains what is usually called the apostolic benediction the form which has been so long, and which is almost so universally used, in dismissing religious assemblies. It is properly a prayer; and it is evident that the optative ειη, 'May the grace,' etc., is to be supplied."

Perhaps there can be various nuances on the word "prayer," though. To word things differently, could this be considered a "request" to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, perhaps indirectly since the second person (i.e., the ones addressed, the "you") would be the Corinthians?

Hark · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
It seems Paul is requesting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to bestow the blessings listed on the Corinthians. Albert Barnes writes, "This verse contains what is usually called the apostolic benediction the form which has been so long, and which is almost so universally used, in dismissing religious assemblies. It is properly a prayer; and it is evident that the optative ειη, 'May the grace,' etc., is to be supplied."

Perhaps there can be various nuances on the word "prayer," though. To word things differently, could this be considered a "request" to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, perhaps indirectly since the second person (i.e., the ones addressed, the "you") would be the Corinthians?

2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 13 All the saints salute you. 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

I still do not see it as a prayer even though "amen" is at the end of this departing benediction. Amen means "so be it' and congregations have been known to say amen to the truth shared from the pulpit so I do not see this as a prayer but instructions & benediction when heeding his instructions.

Now if they did not do as Paul instructed in context, then it will be to their destruction and the reality of verse 14 will not be applied as they may become deaf to the communion of the Holy Spirit or simply not listening to what the Holy Spirit is relaying to them from Christ Jesus, the Head of the Church.

So verse 14 can only be applied to those abiding in Jesus Christ. Verse 14 is still in effect for the living unrepentant believers, but not applied until they have repented and are back on track in abiding in Him.

I see verse 14 as Paul citing his hope for the believers in that church as writing to the believers that abide.

GreekOrthodox · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Sure thing! The hymn is sung with three stanzas (not including the chorus):

Father / Jesus / Spirit, we love You
We worship and adore You
Glorify Thy Name in all the earth

That was the only one that came to mind. It isnt that the Spirit isnt mentioned in hymns, but rather that the Spirit does not stand on His own. Even in the Vespers of Pentecost, which is known as Standing Vespers, prayers to the Spirit are directed through the Trinity. For example:

The Holy Spirit hath ever been, is and ever shall be; for He is wholly without beginning and without end. Yet He is in covenant with the Father and the Son, counted as Life and Life-giver, Light and Light-giver, good by nature and a Fountain of goodness, through whom the Father is known and the Son glorified. And by all it is understood that one power, one rank, one worship are of the Holy Trinity.

Light, Life, and a living noetic Fountain is the Holy Spirit, good, upright, noetic Spirit of
understanding, and purifying offenses, God understanding, presiding, and purifying offenses, God and deifying, Fire projecting from Fire, speaking, active, Distributor of gifts, through whom all the Prophets, the Apostles of God, and the Martyrs are crowned, a strange Report, a strange sight, a Fire divided for the distribution of gifts.

http://ww1.antiochian.org/sites/default/files/liturgical_guides/hs_monday_vesp_3.pdf

Hark · Dec 13, 2021

Kilk1 said:
It seems Paul is requesting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to bestow the blessings listed on the Corinthians. Albert Barnes writes, "This verse contains what is usually called the apostolic benediction the form which has been so long, and which is almost so universally used, in dismissing religious assemblies. It is properly a prayer; and it is evident that the optative ειη, 'May the grace,' etc., is to be supplied."

Perhaps there can be various nuances on the word "prayer," though. To word things differently, could this be considered a "request" to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, perhaps indirectly since the second person (i.e., the ones addressed, the "you") would be the Corinthians?

Adding to point of reproof for your thread is asking you how do you apply His words to mean?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

By those 2 verses, did Jesus really meant that? He had testified of the Holy Spirit before and so why isn't He mentioned as another way to come to God the Father by?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Did Jesus really needed to add that later part of that verse 23 to signify that the only way to honor the Father was by only honoring the Son? There is no other way. We cannot honor the Father by honoring the Holy Spirit since the Spirit of Christ in us would never lead us to put Himself in the spotlight in the worship service but visiting spirits of the antichrist would.

Kilk1 · Dec 14, 2021

Hark said:
2 Corinthians 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 13 All the saints salute you. 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

I still do not see it as a prayer even though "amen" is at the end of this departing benediction. Amen means "so be it' and congregations have been known to say amen to the truth shared from the pulpit so I do not see this as a prayer but instructions & benediction when heeding his instructions.

Now if they did not do as Paul instructed in context, then it will be to their destruction and the reality of verse 14 will not be applied as they may become deaf to the communion of the Holy Spirit or simply not listening to what the Holy Spirit is relaying to them from Christ Jesus, the Head of the Church.

So verse 14 can only be applied to those abiding in Jesus Christ. Verse 14 is still in effect for the living unrepentant believers, but not applied until they have repented and are back on track in abiding in Him.

I see verse 14 as Paul citing his hope for the believers in that church as writing to the believers that abide.

That may be true; I'm not sure. Perhaps, could this be considered a "request" to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, perhaps indirectly since the second person (i.e., the ones addressed, the "you") would be the Corinthians?

Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture?

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